Simple questions I hope, 1) Do any known Imperial factions have Dragons that factor into their Crests and mythos?
2) Why would an Inquisitor, of any Ordo, take an interest in a robot like device?
3) If an artificer of the Adeptus Mechanicus were to create a Mechanical Dragon as a gift for some "Great House" or ruling family, would that be seen as a Heretical action?

This is relating to a scenario set that I'm planning for Dark Heresy. Thanks for the input.

Some pics that I posted on another web forum that I frequent.

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?p=4241513#post4241513

I intend to use this guy against my player group in the future.

There is already a Dragon in the 40K universe. It's a Necron C'Tan lying dormant on Mars, and the Adeptus Mechanicus has mistaken it for being the machine god.

1. While domesticated big lizards are not unknown in the Imperium, a real Dragon (as in WFRPG or other Fantasygames) is unknown. In myths and heraldics yes, but otherwise ... do you know the Lizard Riders? Several regiments of IG have special lizards big and fast enough to be used instead of horses.

2. There are strict rules when it comes to the creation of machines. Shortly said: they should not be able to think for themselves, only follow orders. They should always be readily identified as machines, and not look like a human.

3. Just follow the rules in Point 2 and you're fine. A big mechanical Dragon who can incinerate things and is otherwise able to do guard duty ... why not? Although the flying could get expensive since you need grav-plates.

segara82 said:

I reckon with 1,000,000 worlds in the Imperium, there's a flying fire breathing mega lizard knocking about somewhere. It might even sit on piles of gold...

Luddite said:

Even worth...it could be home to a vulcanic deathworld and the "gold" are the eggs it is guarding... and no, not fake gold but "the real stuff"...brittle enough to be broken up, but still gold! GOLD! GOOOOLD!!!

Talking "flame breath"...if you do not want to go "mystic" (or not 100%), the "mixe-chemicals-spray" of the dragons of the 2002 movie "Reign of Fire" could proof helpfull.

Of course, if everything you want to have is a robotic monster dragon... promethium will do the trick ^^

T-800 said:

Yup, heresy indeed. The AdMech frown upon the thought of robots...

On the other hand there's no stopping a fabricator from hunting down a carnosaur or similar large lizard species. Lobotomizing it and then attach some mechanical wing grafts to it's back along with some other cybernettic modifications (like a heavy flamer installed in it's mouth). Presto! You have a dragon!

Varnias Tybalt said:

Not necessarily. Yes, they frown on robots, but thats merely a frown and nothing more. There isn't a heavy prolification of robots because they can't be allowed to make decisions for themselves and, as such, must be controlled by an operator for the most part. Servitors, which can be allowed to make decisions, have replaced the robots in function. Once a robot starts making complex (that's a fuzzy line right there) decisions for it's self, then it's heresy but not until then. After all, the Janus Simulacra aren't heretical (mostly) and they're in the form of the sacred human. If they can be built, then a Tech-Priest could build a giant nuclear powered clockwork dragon with a heavy flammer mounted in it's mouth although a servitor dragon dose have a certain wonderful appeal to it! Give one to a Tech-Priest as a familiar to really play up the cyborg-wizard aspect of the ad-mech!

Graver said:

Not entirely true. Servitors (even Janus Simulacra) are not considered to be robots (iron men) because all forms of servitors tasked with making decisions has to have some human, organic parts in order to not be clasified as techno heresy. The reason why janus Simulacra are such a hot topic of debate within the AdMech is the fact that they contain only the barest minimum of human organic matter, and the fact that part of the attraction with this particular model is that it can copy human behaviour in an eerily life like fashion.

A clockwork dragon could only be allowed if:

A. it contains enough bio organic matter

Or

B. It isn't an automaton but has to recieve detailed instructions before acting (meaning that it is even less independent than a servitor)

So if you'd want to stay on the good side of the Adeptus Mechanicus, then I'd go with option A. But then again a flame breathing cyber dragon sounds more like something a heretek would construct, so im wondering why it has to be non-heresy in the first place?

Although I don't think they have ever been pictured on the Salamanders Space Marine Chapter home planet of Nocturne has a species of large lizards that breath fire called Firedrakes.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Nocturne

On the deathworld of Luther McIntyre IX exists creature called a Mica Dragon that is mentioned in passing as one it's numbers teeth form the blade of The Champion of Khorn Kharn the Betrayers axe Gorechild.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Kh%C3%A2rn

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Planets_of_Warhammer_40,000

So there are at least a some noted examples and the 40k universe being as it is means that there are a lot that aren't noted.

Face Eater said:

Hmm, do you know if there is any site where you can view illustrations of Mica Dragons and Fire Drakes?

Im particularly interested in the Mica Dragon in this regard, because the term "dragon" can be used in different ways. Like if you say a "Komodo Dragon" you don't immediately think of a winged giant lizard that shoot flamew from it's nostrils, but rather the real world lizards.

So im curious of what the thought behind Mica Dragons was. If they are really inspired from fantasy dragons (with the wings and firebreathing and the whole package) or if they were named "Dragons" for the same reason Komodo Dragons are called dragons.

Ok here's what I've got in mind storywise (will do the stats later on), a techpriest constructs a very advanced mechanical dragon as a gift for one of the sectors ruling families. This machine is a showcase for several highly advanced techs including but not limited to antigrav, land raider quality intellegence, built in energy weapons and incorperated power weapons. The Inquisition gets interested when several of the families adversaries are found dead in some bloody scenes, the only connections that each victem has is that they are either business or political rivals of the family with the mech-machine. One of the problems I have is the lack of a name for the machine or the family. I think that the planet will be Scintilla or one of the other major Hive worlds in the sector. Any suggestions?

BTW thanks all for the posts so far.

Recently I toyed with the idea of a dragon-like species of xenos in the 40K universe ... I was thinking about the kind of dragons described in Privateer Press' Warmachine and Hordes games. Big, nasty, aeons old critters, whose very existence taints their surroundings as it seeps into everything from rocks and trees to people and creatures, turning them into the dragon's servants, guards and emissaries.

Talking "frown on robots":

I always read it that they "frown upon artificial intelligence" and "thing looking to much like a human". If "robot" would be a problem.... the Titan Legions would not exist, would they?

I agree about the "servitor dogma", but it should be enough to take the "brain and nerve clusters" of some ferocious animal to build an otherwise robotic dragon.

The cyber-mastiffs are nearly the same: machine-bodies with some animal tissue inside, a K9-RoboCop. Why not building a dragon on the same basis? It is just ...larger ^^

Varnias Tybalt said:

Sadly I don't think they ever did produce any pictures as far as I've seen. Both types are introduced as part of the background of Vulkan (The Salamanders Primarch and Kharns background).

Firedrakes especially are described as huge, firebreathing, lizards so they seem tofit perfectly and if the Salamanders iconography is actually based on them they look verymuch like classic dragons:

http://www.the-warforge.com/index.pl?salamanders

Mica dragons got even less. Apparently they come from desert deathworld and have large very hard teeth.

I'd go for Automata Wyrm or something like that.

Or you (the OP) could go with:

"Mecha-Drake".

Or if you want to keep it low key until the players see it, its codename would be "the annihilus device"

S.K

There are also (going back to the question about 'dragons' as actual creatures in 40k) the Archaeosaurs- there is a non-Compliant feral world mentioned in an old short story ( Battle of the Archaeosaurs , Barrington J Bayley (iirc), last reprinted in the Let The Galaxy Burn meganthology), in which the 'natives' herded enormous bio-engineered dinosaur-type things (titan-sized, with adamantium scutes, and the ability to breathe fire hot enough to slag a Warlord titan). Not only did these form a major part of the native tribes' wealth and resources, but through the miracle of Stone Age Acupuncture , they were able to ride and control the beasts in battle. They managed to not merely fend off, but actually wipe out an ork Waaargh! (including gargant mobs) and at least one Imperial Crusade force (at least three regiments of IG and a demi-legio from the adeptus titanicus), and a large number of their titan kills happened in one-on-one duels, although the war ended when the remaining cohort of titans was crushed by a stampeding herd of archaeosaurs.

As for the whole 'frown on robots' thing- no. Anti-AI, yes, but there exists an entire branch of the Adeptus Mechanicus' armed forces devoted to building and maintaining battle robots- the Legio Cybernetica. Those robots are fairly limited in terms of software capability, unless they get a card with a slice of vat-grown brain inside fitted, at which point they become at least semi-autonomous, with a fairly high risk of malfunctioning, going haywire, or simply crashing. Unsurprisingly, most Imperial forces don't trust them, and the Astartes even less so*, as the simplest way to 'build' a new robot is to 'salvage' a Dreadnought, and the Legio has been known to do this even when the pilot of the Dreadnought is still alive.

* The big exception to this is the Red Scorpions chapter, which has actually inducted a maniple of battle robots and made them honorary space marines after one particularly epic campaign.

Alasseo said:

Legio Cybernetica. You can hear by the name that it isn't refering to robots, and even the description you mention yourself say that it isn't about robots. They are cyborgs, which are all fine and dandy according to the AdMech. As long as human organic parts (or vat-grown human organic parts) are responsible for the brunt of descision-making in the machine, it is considered to have a proper machine spirit.

A robot on the other hand (meaning a completely mechanical autonomous machine imitating a human form) would be considered to be a soulless abomination by the Adeptus Mechanicus, and it would be considered techno-heresy to build one. And while some creations only have the barest of organic parts (usually a central nervoussystem and little else), they are still considered to house benign machine spirits. Completely digital or mechanical creations assigned to do some sort of independent thinking (being choosing which target to shoot at or which corridor bend to take) on the other hand, ar soulles and techno-heretical and should be destroyed whenever they are found...

Why would 'cybernetica' not refer to robots? The term 'cyborg' comes from 'cybernetic organism', meaning a living organism with cybernetic parts (or alternatively, a cybernetic entity with organic parts). A Cyberneticist is someone who studies, designs and builds robots (although, since Asimov, the term 'roboticist' has been gaining popularity, despite the fact that Asimov uses it to refer to someone who studies the 'minds' of robots).

Also- the official fluff refers to the creations/charges of the Legio Cybernetica as 'robots'. I'd also like to note that robots are not necessarily wholly autonomous (and the description I posted makes it clear that even with the BASIC programming on the wetware chips, the robots of the Cybernetica are at best semi-autonomous, and without it rely upon very simple, direct verbal commands) and there are references from Merrett of the Dark Mechanicus dabbling in the 'forbidden science' of cybernetics, trying to create autonomous robots, i.e: Iron Men.

Heh guys I remember reading BFG that some defense stations are run by "sanctified logic engines". Are these true AI and couldn't the Mechanicus make robots with these devices?

LordMunchkin said:

They aren't true AI - that's illegal as per the Treaty of Mars made at the start of the Great Crusade. Rather, they're much simpler, like the AI in a computer game - able to make basic decisions to a limited degree within a limited field based solely on its programming, with no intuition or deeper insight. The systems that control Tarantula Sentry Guns (used in various forms by the Imperial Guard and the Adeptus Astartes alike) use similar control mechanisms.

For the Imperium and the Adeptus Mechanicus, the definition of Abominable Intellect is concerned with sentient and sapient machines of human and above-human intelligence, that possess the capability to learn and expand.

It is not certain that the 'Dragon of Mars' is the C'tan known as The Void Dragon, only likely.
The Emperor defeated the entity in question and imprisoned it on Mars, beneath the Noctis Labyrinth, knowing it would send out dreams of advanced machines to the populus of Mars, advanced machines that would help him in The Great Crusade.

T-800 said:

If there is alien devices used as part of the robot, if the robot is used in a way harming important interests or Imperium or if the building of the robot wasn't done wit the proper rites of Omnissiah it could certainly get Inquisition interested.

T-800 said:

Depends a lot on how it was created. After all, in Imperium building instruments of technology isn't a secular matter, but a matter of deep religious significance. Adeptus Mechanicus do not hold monopoly because they know all the best ways of doing something (as clearly shown by the various alien artefacts that are more "advanced" than Imperial equivalents), Adeptus Mechanicus holdthe monopoly because they determine what is the proper and correct ways of doing things.

In Adeptus Mechanicum Emperor is called Omnissiah and is seen as an earthly representative of the Great Machine God. As such heresy against Imperial Cult is often heresy against Omnissiah and Machine Gods and vice versa. Thus, if you start to build technological wonders not previously sanctioned by the highest echelons of Adpetus Mechanicus, you risk being labeled as a heretic acting not only against the power of Adeptus Mechanicus, but also disrespecting Emperor himself.

Organizations that use Dragon as a symbol:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Dragon_Warriors (Chaos Space Marine chapter)

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Cult_of_the_Dragon (A sect of Cult of Mechanicus)

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lords_Dragon (a secret organization fighting techno-heresies within ranks of Adeptus Mechanicus)

from france

the subject is about dragons? so the games offer you the possibilities to crate monster . you down have game master screen? no probleme take the carnosaure give him flayer and fire breath and you have your dragon.

alternately where warp and matherial plane are closed and their barrier thin you can have the following effect. considering that in dh emotions, thougth and so on can manifeste in the warp and then sumoned if demons existe this way why not mythical creatures?