The first list of questions from our local gamenight...

By BainIthron, in Descent: Journeys in the Dark

(Skip to the numbered list below for the actual rule questions)

'lo...

I'm a forum newcomer here, I'm a moderately experienced Descent player, having been both hero and overlord, and played a fair share of games. I got a call up from one of my old gaming buddies that he wanted me to run a Road to Legend campaign (He owns all the Descent products except for Tomb of Ice, which he was thinking about buying this week if we end up getting a good campaign going). I said sure, I'll go get the rulebooks online and prepare for Saturday (a week away). I did thus, reading through the book, going over reference sheets, FAQs, etc.

Gameday comes... starting a fresh campaign at 10am and going until about 1:30am the next day. Marathon session. The heroes cleared 2 dungeons and 1 wilderness encounter. I mean, I think we did "a lot"... but a good chunk of the session was dedicated to deciphering the rules. All of us are rather experienced game players (The one who called me up actually owned a tabletop gaming store, promoting Descent and many other Fantasy Flight Games often, hence how I learned about the company in the first place), and so maybe we come to expect a higher level of rule layout, akin to that of Wizards of the Coast Dungeons and Dragons, especially for something as complex as Descent. To be honest, I think with all the expansions now, Descent (the series as a whole) could use a wholey re-written webbook that governs main game and all the expansions (playing in either "normal" mode or "Road to Legend Campaign Mode"), complete with proper orginization and an index. The whole set as it is currently feels "cobbled together" rule wise, but that's completely understandable given there isn't really a profit motive to publish such a book in print, and therefore sell it, nor has there been a product released that has included comprehensively trying to tie all the products together as a central feature. But, let's get down to business...

I'd like to find answers to the following questions, and forgive me for not having the actual games with me, as they're with my friend. More questions will come later when/if the other players get around to e-mailing me.

1.) RtL Dungeon... 38 I believe... "Throwing Rocks" (The one with the Master Giant Dungeon Leader who can throw rocks, heh). It's the dungeon where I gathered the whole majority of my conquest tokens... which lead to delerious giggles of helplessness (and some bouts of frustration) as I racked up constant kills. The ability for the Giant Dungeon Leader... I'd like to clarify his throwing rocks ability... a.) What does "Direction" mean in the cards text? Does it mean one of the 8 directions of movement in a straight line? or does it mean "towards" a target as if I were measuring range for a ranged attack? b.) How do the rocks handle collisions with walls? With other rocks (Well, "Rubble")? With pits? With other objects? c.) A subset of question "b.)", -if- rocks stop movement when colliding with a wall, if the player is on that space that the rock stops on, do they suffer the effects as if the rock had landed on their space normally? d.) If the Master Giant Dungeon Leader directs the rock through a square he occupies himself, does he suffer the affects as any other creature would? Overlord's monsters too? Naturally, rules for rock throwing seem to be only on a card, so there was limited print space.

How we played it: We considered the rock "direction" (after some debate) to be as if measuring range for a ranged attack, so not only could it move in the 8 normal "straight" directions, but it could move as if a ranged attack. We also considered walls to cause the rock to stop immediately, even if more movement was left (This is the one that caused around 4 deaths). Hence, if a hero was against a wall, and within range of a "rubble" marker, they were screwed. I survived by playing "ring arond the rosey" and throwing rocks at opportune moments. This lead them to surround my figure... in which case I buffed up the die, played a rage card, and completey decimated half of them surrounding me (This happened again later). There was much laughing later when they couldn't pierce my 7 armor while the giant had only one hit point left, which allowed him to slaughter one in that time he was alive. This single dungeon level completely tipped the game in my favor, allowing me to buy 3 additional lietenants. Maybe I was playing -real- smart, maybe they weren't playing all that smart. Maybe the dungeon is "broken" gameplay wise, and needs to be changed or clarified.

2.) Concerning the RtL campaign limitations (for Copper, Silver, and Gold Campaign Levels), specifically on "trait dice" (i.e. at Copper Campaign Level, no more than three trait dice can be silver power dice)... does this limitation apply to the power dice level achieved by boosting in dungeons by heroes spending fatigue and overlords spending threat? For example, if it's at copper campaign level, and the party is in a dungeon, a hero making attack at a monster has 5 black power dice, and upgrades all those dice via fatigue to gold power dice, is that legal or illegal? Suggestion: The term "Trait Dice" isn't mentioned anywhere else in the Road to Legend book or any of the other books, so it might help to either define "Trait Dice" or tell us what term we should replace "Trait Dice" with.

3.) Concerning effects that "ignore armor", do they ignore a character's armor score, equipment cards (and their abilities) that are the "Armor" type (or treated as such), or all of the above? Specifically (though I don't have the game on me), there's a cloak that allows you to prevent wounds by rolling a power die for every wound you recieve, and for every blank rolled, you recieve one less. I'm trying to narrow down if effects that ignore armor would also ignore the ability on this armor equipment card.

4.) When a "Master Monster" is killed in RtL, Master Monster being the Master variant of a monster, not a Dungeon Leader or Lieutenant, does the party recieve a 50 coin bounty for each one killed?

5.) In RtL, what's the difference between a Hero recuperating during a "Recuperate/Train" action, and a Hero who visits the temple under the "Train" circumstance? The only difference I can tell is the Hirst hero isn't at any building in town, and the second Hero is at the temple building in town. Both circumstances recover full health and fatigue for 50 coins. Is this some sort of printing error, or was this how it was meant to be? Can anyone think of how the either one might make a difference as it is printed currently in the game (i.e. some certain event or situation I'm not thinking of).

6.) On Page 14 of the RtL rulebook, it talks about how Overlords can spend threat 2 threat to make a monster move one extra space, or 2 threat to Add a black power die (or boost) a monster's attack during an encounter. Is this also allowed in RtL Dungeons? In Dungeons from other products?

Anyhoo... We still had a blast... just that the night could have been spent more effectively is all. Any help would be appreciated, and any answers or comments from the game designers or the FFG employees that answer questions on these boards would be extra appreciated. Thanks!

BainIthron said:

1.) RtL Dungeon... 38 I believe... "Throwing Rocks" (The one with the Master Giant Dungeon Leader who can throw rocks, heh). It's the dungeon where I gathered the whole majority of my conquest tokens... which lead to delerious giggles of helplessness (and some bouts of frustration) as I racked up constant kills. The ability for the Giant Dungeon Leader... I'd like to clarify his throwing rocks ability... a.) What does "Direction" mean in the cards text? Does it mean one of the 8 directions of movement in a straight line? or does it mean "towards" a target as if I were measuring range for a ranged attack? b.) How do the rocks handle collisions with walls? With other rocks (Well, "Rubble")? With pits? With other objects? c.) A subset of question "b.)", -if- rocks stop movement when colliding with a wall, if the player is on that space that the rock stops on, do they suffer the effects as if the rock had landed on their space normally? d.) If the Master Giant Dungeon Leader directs the rock through a square he occupies himself, does he suffer the affects as any other creature would? Overlord's monsters too? Naturally, rules for rock throwing seem to be only on a card, so there was limited print space.

How we played it: We considered the rock "direction" (after some debate) to be as if measuring range for a ranged attack, so not only could it move in the 8 normal "straight" directions, but it could move as if a ranged attack. We also considered walls to cause the rock to stop immediately, even if more movement was left (This is the one that caused around 4 deaths). Hence, if a hero was against a wall, and within range of a "rubble" marker, they were screwed. I survived by playing "ring arond the rosey" and throwing rocks at opportune moments. This lead them to surround my figure... in which case I buffed up the die, played a rage card, and completey decimated half of them surrounding me (This happened again later). There was much laughing later when they couldn't pierce my 7 armor while the giant had only one hit point left, which allowed him to slaughter one in that time he was alive. This single dungeon level completely tipped the game in my favor, allowing me to buy 3 additional lietenants. Maybe I was playing -real- smart, maybe they weren't playing all that smart. Maybe the dungeon is "broken" gameplay wise, and needs to be changed or clarified.

2.) Concerning the RtL campaign limitations (for Copper, Silver, and Gold Campaign Levels), specifically on "trait dice" (i.e. at Copper Campaign Level, no more than three trait dice can be silver power dice)... does this limitation apply to the power dice level achieved by boosting in dungeons by heroes spending fatigue and overlords spending threat? For example, if it's at copper campaign level, and the party is in a dungeon, a hero making attack at a monster has 5 black power dice, and upgrades all those dice via fatigue to gold power dice, is that legal or illegal? Suggestion: The term "Trait Dice" isn't mentioned anywhere else in the Road to Legend book or any of the other books, so it might help to either define "Trait Dice" or tell us what term we should replace "Trait Dice" with.

3.) Concerning effects that "ignore armor", do they ignore a character's armor score, equipment cards (and their abilities) that are the "Armor" type (or treated as such), or all of the above? Specifically (though I don't have the game on me), there's a cloak that allows you to prevent wounds by rolling a power die for every wound you recieve, and for every blank rolled, you recieve one less. I'm trying to narrow down if effects that ignore armor would also ignore the ability on this armor equipment card.

4.) When a "Master Monster" is killed in RtL, Master Monster being the Master variant of a monster, not a Dungeon Leader or Lieutenant, does the party recieve a 50 coin bounty for each one killed?

5.) In RtL, what's the difference between a Hero recuperating during a "Recuperate/Train" action, and a Hero who visits the temple under the "Train" circumstance? The only difference I can tell is the Hirst hero isn't at any building in town, and the second Hero is at the temple building in town. Both circumstances recover full health and fatigue for 50 coins. Is this some sort of printing error, or was this how it was meant to be? Can anyone think of how the either one might make a difference as it is printed currently in the game (i.e. some certain event or situation I'm not thinking of).

6.) On Page 14 of the RtL rulebook, it talks about how Overlords can spend threat 2 threat to make a monster move one extra space, or 2 threat to Add a black power die (or boost) a monster's attack during an encounter. Is this also allowed in RtL Dungeons? In Dungeons from other products?

Anyhoo... We still had a blast... just that the night could have been spent more effectively is all. Any help would be appreciated, and any answers or comments from the game designers or the FFG employees that answer questions on these boards would be extra appreciated. Thanks!

1.a) It means Direction. No real help on this one. FWIW I believe most groups play meaning this as a straight line only, ie in one of 8 directions. It would be difficult to call an awkward LOS measurement not in a 'straight' line as a 'direction'.
b) Again, there is no clear indication (this is one of the least well thought out specialist rules). Almost universally people play it as walls stop rocks. If your heroes are stupid enough to stay against the walls in such a situation they really do deserve to die! With rubble? Most I believe play rubble either stops the block of the block crushes the rubble effectively replacing it. Pits? there is no collision! If the rock ended there then it might replace the pit, if it passed over, it passes over - the same with other 'passable' obstacles. Of course, if it hits a figure the rules are already there for that...
c) Yes, or so it seems universally played. Dont be morons and slink against the walls!
d) There are a variety of ways this is usually played. Some groups play that the giant picks up the rock first, then counts any of it's spaces as the starting space of the rock. Other groups (mine included, count the starting space of the rock as where it is thrown from and if the giant chooses to throw it 'across' himself and 'fumbles' the throw (throws it short, onto his own base) then he suffers the effects.

2. No, the limitation does not extend to power dice.
Trait dice are the (power) dice that the hero automatically receives, as power dice, on each attack. They are the dice symbols shown in the Trait section of the hero card, + additional Trait dice upgrades that are bought. Note that you upgarde or add power dice with fatigue, not trait dice.
So Trait dice are your permanent freebies that convert into power dice. There are limits to what you can (permanently) upgrade in each level for these (although the gold level limit is a misprint). Power dice are what you actually roll, mostly free from your trait dice, but also upgradeable without limit (other than 5 gold) from fatigue or potions.

3. There are two different uses for the term 'Armour'. One is an item description/subtype. The other is the total value of a heroes Armour stat from natural armour, equipped armour, other items, skills and special abilities.
It has been clarified that things which 'ignore armour' ignore the second usage (total AV). The cloaks may still uses their additional effect on damage that ignores armour, although the pure armour bonus of the cloaks would be ignored.

4. Yes. RtL specifies that vanilla rules apply unless they are changed. This is a vanilla rule that has not been changed.

5. There is no difference at all. It has been clarified that a hero can only recuperate at a temple.

6. No. It is exactly what it says it is - a rule especially for encounters. This is because in encounters the OL does not get any cards (other than treachery in Lt encounters).

EDIT: Had a response written, but Corbon types faster than me.

Corbon said:

1.a) It means Direction. No real help on this one. FWIW I believe most groups play meaning this as a straight line only, ie in one of 8 directions. It would be difficult to call an awkward LOS measurement not in a 'straight' line as a 'direction'.

Just to weigh in on this, I don't remember how we played it, but I believe it just said direction, and since a direction is just a slope, anything should be fine. It just means a straight line as far as we could tell, not necessarily orthogonal or diagonal.

I'm going to have to come down on the "8 cardinal directions" side of the argument. Picking a target point and then moving the rubble token towards that point works fine as long as the rolled range is exactly the target point, but things get dodgy when you have to pick a point along a "nonstandard" straight line path to stop on.

Ah, thank you all for the responses so far, I appreciate it!

@Corbon:

Concerning reply #1d: Yeah, we played it as moving the rock the aforementioned spaces from where it stood, since that's how it described it on the card I think.

Concerning reply #3: Out of curiousity, do you know where this clarification is from? It's not needed, but it would be appreciated happy.gif . If it was a post on this forum and you don't feel like looking it up, give me a keyword or two and I'll find it.

Concerning reply #5: Well, same request as #3, however it doesn't really matter then anyway.

Extra thanks man,

@Big Remy:

I hate it when people beat me to the punch on forums. So much written and then trashed sad.gif .

@pinkymadigan & Lord Foul:

Thanks for weighing in, this might help us figure out how to treat "direction" next game.

So that leaves.... 1a and 1b unclarified by any official or quasi-official source, assuming Corbon is not in error on his other answers. However, I got some good input on those ones, which will help. Any more comments or posts would be appreciated. Thanks again everyone!

BainIthron said:

Concerning reply #3: Out of curiousity, do you know where this clarification is from? It's not needed, but it would be appreciated happy.gif . If it was a post on this forum and you don't feel like looking it up, give me a keyword or two and I'll find it.

Concerning reply #5: Well, same request as #3, however it doesn't really matter then anyway.

So that leaves.... 1a and 1b unclarified by any official or quasi-official source, assuming Corbon is not in error on his other answers. However, I got some good input on those ones, which will help. Any more comments or posts would be appreciated. Thanks again everyone!

No worries. I do usually try and post references and/or quotes (since I always want them myself), but answering from home I am mostly working from hard copy rulebooks so can't search or cut and paste easily.

3. Well, I can't find it. Not in the GLOAQ (which is far from comprehensive, sadly), not in the FAQ. I am sure there was a reply from FFG staff saying that the cloaks 'effect' still worked against stuff that 'ignored armour'. There have been other threads on this topic which IIRC have universally been resolved this way. Good luck finding them with the awful search engine though. Keywords would be too widely applied, and the engine doesn't seem to do key-phrases. Sorry man. (Note: I used 'ignoring' and checked the first 15 pages already for no result)
This post, on BGG forum, says the same thing and referenced a now defunct link to the old FFG forum. www.boardgamegeek.com/article/1487707#1487707

5. from the GLOAQ.
(Q)2, Can a party still pay to recuperate when in the wilderness?
...
(A)2. You have to be in town to heal.

Therefore Recuperating, since it must be done in a town and must be part of a Recuperate/Train Party Action, is identical in all parts to a Train action at the temple (see pg 22) (other than the figure being removed from the board instead of being placed in any building - which has an identical effect to being placed in the temple), is in fact a Train/Temple action. It is probably just a case of an earlier version of the rules allowing recuperating in the wilderness and, as usual, FFG completely stuffed up their editing.

I can second Corbon's reply #3. In all the discussion,its always been universally agreed that armor values are separate from passive abiities like the various cloaks ability to roll for wounds.

The word "armor" is used to mean two things in Descent: it's a stat that is subtracted from an attack's damage to determine how many wounds you suffer, and it's a type of item. So there's 3 things that "ignores armor" could conceivably mean:

1) Ignores your armor stat. This means that all those low-damage things that ignore armor (like pits, spiked pits, dart fields, etc.) actually do something to heroes with high base armor, which would otherwise absorb all the damage, but you can still use secondary effects from armor items, like the cloaks' ability to roll to cancel wounds.

2) Ignores your armor items. Neither an Elven Cloak nor Dragon Scale Mail provides any protection, but Nanok laughs in your face. Heroes with even 1 base armor can jump into pits with impunity, spiked pits never deal damage to tanks, etc.

3) Both 1 and 2. The person writing the rules deliberately used an ambiguous term to refer to both of its definitions simultaneously with no clarification. He has no business writing instructions, anywhere, ever. And technically, the rules don't even say what he meant, because by the normal rules of English grammar, even words with multiple definitions only get to mean one thing at a time .

When people sit down and consider the options, they pretty consistently choose #1.

Antistone said:

The word "armor" is used to mean two things in Descent: it's a stat that is subtracted from an attack's damage to determine how many wounds you suffer, and it's a type of item. So there's 3 things that "ignores armor" could conceivably mean:

1) Ignores your armor stat. This means that all those low-damage things that ignore armor (like pits, spiked pits, dart fields, etc.) actually do something to heroes with high base armor, which would otherwise absorb all the damage, but you can still use secondary effects from armor items, like the cloaks' ability to roll to cancel wounds.

2) Ignores your armor items. Neither an Elven Cloak nor Dragon Scale Mail provides any protection, but Nanok laughs in your face. Heroes with even 1 base armor can jump into pits with impunity, spiked pits never deal damage to tanks, etc.

3) Both 1 and 2. The person writing the rules deliberately used an ambiguous term to refer to both of its definitions simultaneously with no clarification. He has no business writing instructions, anywhere, ever. And technically, the rules don't even say what he meant, because by the normal rules of English grammar, even words with multiple definitions only get to mean one thing at a time .

When people sit down and consider the options, they pretty consistently choose #1.

#3 FTW!

@Corbon: Yeah... I tried using the search engine on this forum and it didn't work very well, sadly. Oh well. Today is the 19th. If I get lucky, since they're back in the office today, a FFG staff member will just clear everything up anyway >,>. You've been really helpful though, thanks again.

@Big Remy, Antistone, Oboewan: Thanks for the comments!

A bit late but nonetheless, here is the official quote for the armor question, taken from the old Descent Wiki:

Q: "If a particular source of damage ignores armor (spiked pit trap, for example), does it ignore the special abilities of the armor as well?"

A: Officially, ignoring armor only applies to the actual armor value. The cloaks [Cloak of Deception, Cloak of Mists, Elven Cloak] are nice because they always give you that chance to avoid damage.

@Parathion:

Ah, thanks for that. Much appreciated!