Now see here ...

Actually, I'm rather a fan of the halfling - they seem more appropriate to WFRP than elves and dwarfs. The phallic sausage thing just makes it even more WFRPy, from my perspective.

I find that many here have a totally wrong picture of Halflings.

They are not fat little cuddly buffoons.
They are mean little knee kicking BASTARDS!

I have actually banned elves as playing races from my campaigns...
And to be honest we don't have any Halflings in the group for the moment.

The noble adventures hired one Halfling to watch their boat and stuff though.

He stole their stuff and ran away. =)

Guess WHFRPG V3 just got lumped into the same hole as D&D 4th ed, things I simply won't play. Extremely disappointed

Gnutten said:

Can't they be both?

Anyway it won't matter. They're still getting burnt, and if they kick me in the shins resisting then the part where im burning them will just feel a whole lot better.

Necrozius said:

"Sorry, my chubby friend, but once they decided on the wood elves, it was either you are a permanent lighting spell."

Blue Wizard said:

Given that this is WFRP and not LotR, the 'Sam' one would be referring to would be Sam Warble. I'm not so sure one can intimidate out of the game so easily.

Is there actually hard data about how many people play elves vs. how many play halflings, or is this just supposition? I'm sure that I'm hardly a statistic, but I really enjoy playing halflings. I also think that once people roleplay more, they warm up to halflings, one they get over their kewl warrior with spiky bitz phase of life.

I think there's also a demographic argument to be made. The Empire is crawling with halflings, whereas elves outside of their secluded forests are few and far between. So, for that simple fact, it seems to me to be an absolute numbskull thing to do to leave halflings out of the core material.

Armrek said:

Ditto.

It's way too soon for a new edition, and 2e still had a lot of expansion potential left.

Honestly, to me It looks like FFG decided they wanted to put their stamp on it, make it "theirs", instead continuing a legacy from Green Ronin. And in 3-5 years, that probably would have been ok, though there would still be some complainers. But right now, everyone still has the shock of GW saying it was cancelled, the relief of it's resurrection, and the drama of the D&D 4e change very, very fresh in their minds. I fail to see how the marketing people couldn't know that they were going to see a huge backlash, unless they've been living in a cave for the last two years.

We have also talked a lot here about v1 vs v2 vs v3 art (especially v1 cover vs v3 cover - almost only solid piece of info that we have for now).

I have already said that something 'bothers' me about v3 cover but here is a guy I think can put that down a lot better in this hommage to J.Blanche

http://monstersandmanuals.blogspot.com/2009/03/sorcery-art-or-griminess-beats.html

kristof65 said:

Perhaps they just flat out refused to listening to the marketing people? Wouldn't that be awesome? Since marketing people in the gaming industry are what holds good games back and only make sure that easily digested works of mediocrity are released most of the time, all in the name of trying to squeeze out as many bucks as possible without attracting lawsuits or raised eyebrows.

It is usually the marketing people that shoots down innovative and controversial ideas even before they can be extrapolated upon. It is the marketing people that use diagrams, facts and figures of what was the "hottest seller" of last year and try to convince the creative team that the latest product should follow those guidelines.

-"Hey guys! Last years demographics shows that skateboards were the coolest thing, so make sure you incorporate skateboards in this new product or you're FIRED!"

Marketing people (at least in the gaming industry) should be burned on the stake, and the creative teams should be given completely free reigns. But that will probably not happen in this capitalist world of ours, where the mighty dollar rule and the artistic and creative are surpressed to levels of mediocrity and banality to be as easily digested by the general, mindless public who will happily fork out the cash for the bland and boring tasting products approved by the "marketing people" and the "decency and censorship people".

Any gaming company that gives their so called marketing people a swift kick in the ass will have my support.

//Varnias Tybalt - yes, I have in fact watched a lot of clips of the late comedian Bill Hicks lately. The man was a genious!

Cat that Walked by Himself said:

Honestly, I can take or leave mister Blanche. Sometimes its an epic work from your nightmares and sometimes it's just a glorified doodle page.

But yes, the art is a bit too pretty. Where's the mud? The nasty? This raises further worries on the whole "hero" thing.

Blue Wizard said:

Oh yes mr. Frodo, who's the lord of your ring now?

Crazy Aido said:

Just corrected that a bit.

kristof65 said:

They knew there'd be a backlash, they just didn't care. For all the nerd rage we're seeing online, in the end it won't really make a difference to how much this edition will sell.

There's always a backlash against a new edition. You always get fans of the previous edition(s) complaining about the new one. But it doesn't really matter, because the company doesn't care all that much about those fans. Those fans already have huge piles of old edition material. Many of those fans haven't been buying the books for the old edition anyway (otherwise they would have just kept on publishing old edition material). And many of the fans of the old stuff simply won't care and will buy the new stuff regardless.

What the company wants is the new fans. The ones who don't have 20 WFRP 2E supplements on their shelves. Sure, they like to get some of the old fans too, but they aren't the priority. It's the fresh blood with the disposable income they want.

macd21 said:

Rigth you are! As long as we still can by printed 2nd ed stuff for our new players, this attitude is no problem. :-)

macd21 said:

It was less a backlash and more of a spasm. A backlash requires thought. I'm sure they want the 2nd edition players to be excited. It was their announcement of a new edition and that there would be some changes that made some people apoplectic. Their one page teaser was meant as an announcement, not a detailed list of everything that was going to be new or why they were doing things. It's not like a new edition was a complete surprise, it's been discussed in the 2nd edition boards.

The weird under-informed overreaction reminded me of the "box insert" travesty at the Cthulhu LCG boards a few months back. I know this is the internet and this stuff is common, but I still get surprised sometimes.

There is a lot of people saying that this is going the way of 4e D&D. The cards and symbol dice were a FFG thing way before 4e. I recall reading an article on some kind of tavern brawl game that WOTC put out that had a lot of funny symbol dice in it. I recall the designer saying that the dice were initially an experimental resolution system they were trying out with 4e. WOTC didnt have the guts to go that route, because if they did it would be clear that they were robbing ideas off of Descent.(compare the saving throw system to get rid of effects in 4e, and then look at the one in descent. they are very similar only that Descent's funny dice do a much better job than 4e. this game has FFG written all over it, and has nothing to do with 4e. FFG does cards and funny dice very well.

I

macd21 said:

This statement is incorrect.

(As you well know) The v2 books were keeping BI in the black (still profitable) with the last book released selling out.

The success of SoE and the CC, both v2, had to have raised a few eyebrows in FFG.

Oh yes mr. Frodo, who's the lord of your ring now?

Frodo stands on deck of a yacht that is sailing away, his arms around the waist of a wood elf babe to his left, and a high elf babe to his right. He is wearing a familiar blue polo shirt that comes down to his knees.

He looks back at the lone halfling standing on the river bank, and flashes the All-American salute and a derisive grin.

A shocked and bewildered chubby hobbit stares back in disbelief. He is unable to find anything to say and slowly begins to cry.

1010 Cloud Deck said:

That's not what I said. The v2 books were still profitable - otherwise FFG probably wouldn't have printed any at all. But the number of v2 fans buying books had fallen - a lot. That was the case before BI was shut down. It's also completely normal in the life cycle of an RPG. The point I was making is that the nerdrage of v2 fans isn't too big a deal for FFG because they aren't their most important customers for v3. A negative backlash was inevitable from some v2 fans, but from a sales point of view those people aren't that important. v3 will almost assuredly outsell anything they could produce for v2, despite any negativism from some v2 fans.

My reply overall to the OP.

1) Im not interested in a new system. I like the one that exists.

2) I am a ROLE PLAYER and you are right, system doesnt dictate role playing. In which case, why would I change systems anyway? We role play just fine in 2E.

3) Yes, the boxes and cards may be accessories for the game and not necessary to play. They are not required. But with the box set sold as it is, the option and choice is taken from us. We are paying for these items and add ons that most of us have no interest in. So whether I use the cards or boxes or tokens or not, Im still dropping $100 on them.

4) Its the kala-yuga affect. The cycle repeats itself once again. We will see expansions for this game start at ground zero. Adventure, Monster Book, Equipment Book, Empire Guide, Magic Guide and after that the supplements may take a new angle and release schedule. So maybe book 6 or 7 or 8 will be a Orc sourcebook or elf sourcebook or something. And finally us 2E hold overs may get something we may be able to use or adapt for 2E. But with the FFG release skills, and not knowing when 3E is released, that could be 2 or 3 years from now.

5) The dice look stupid and lame. If anything, the mechanics seem to get in the way of RPing as you calculate what dice you need and what the results mean.

6) (The Big One) FFG kept telling us WFRP was not dead and big things were coming (which was true) and released two 2E books that cost arund $70 total for us to buy. All the while saying "These books are awesome, look for more stuff soon" and they knew that these books would be out of synch with future releases but were just trying to bait a last minute money grab before updating (******) the game and wanting $100.

7) GW is re-releasing Space Hulk of $100, guess where my $100 is going

That's my guess as well macd21, that there isn't anything they could have done publishing-wise for v2 that could have outsold whatever they came up with for a v3 core product release. Its a good business plan. And FFG certainly isn't surprised at the relatively minor (though very vocal) negative feedback that they're getting from the old diehards. And I'm not trying to marginalize those folks who feel betrayed and left behind by their favorite game. I know it can suck to see things change and move on. But that's just how it is. This happens with every edition update for RPGs. I'm sure that they'd like for the oldtimers to take a look and judge the product fairly and it'd be great if they'd even buy in to v3....but I just can't imagine that they're counting on it.

Why not publish new editions of all the old books with new pictures, fluff, and source material, without changing the core mechanics? That way you don't cut off members of the old fan base and you can also continue publishing totally new supplemental books. I don't think mechanics are the draw for a new player. If someone has different mechanics that they prefer let them adapt whatever home rules they want to the Warhammer setting. If you want to add more visual aides, cards, a party card, then make those things as optional add-ons included with the new edition yet compatable with the old rules.

I think the reason why this is not done is that publishers do rely on the old fan base to buy new editions, if out of nothing more than to satisfy their curiosity of how the new mechanics work.

Blue Wizard said:

Some companies have done just that on occassion. Usually they also try to tidy up the rules a little, make a few changes here and there, but not enough that you really need to buy it if you already have an old copy. FFG could have done so, but chose not to. One of the reasons companies don't do this is simply because there is a value to creating a 'new' game. New players are more attracted to a totally new game than a revision of an old one. Or at least distributors believe they are.... Basically, distributors will buy more copies of a new gamesystem core than they will of a revised system.

Another reason to create a new system instead of using an old one is to either create a better system or to appeal to a different group of fans. The WFRP system was ok - it wasn't great. It's an old, workable system, but a lot of people had a lot of complaints about it. FFG decided to try something new. This gives them the chance to create a better system, but also to appeal to a customer base that may have disliked WFRP's mechanics up until now.

That's too bad... Owning nearly all of the WFRP2 books, I myself think I would be very interested in buying a new edition players handbook if it came with all new art, fluff, cards, a stance system, party card, markers, wood elves, while keeping the percentage dice system and character stats system so that everything was still compatable with the WFRP2 books. (Would be cool if optional dice could be added and interpreted along with the D%). WFRP3 is interesting but less so since I've got more source material to go with the WFRP2 I feel like I might as well stick with the older version at least for a while longer.

Oh well, a game in print is better than none.

There's no reason not to stick to 2e indefinitely if you like the game better. If you prefer 3e when it comes out, then make the switch, but you have all you need to play 2e as long as you want.