Herr Arnulfe said:

Off course. But my point here was that it didn't ruin the roleplaying experience now did it?

Or did you, at some point, confuse Dread with playing Jenga only because the game had a Jenga-like tower? Im guessing you were more pre-occupied with... well, you know roleplaying! Am I right?

Because this is what the naysayers tend to use as a "point". They claim that the latest edition isn't an RPG at all but a boardgame because it incorporates boardgame-LIKE accessories, and for some mysterious reasons they will forget that it is a roleplaying game...

onlinechaos said:

onlinechaos said:

The use of cards and custom dice allows you to do things with the game that you can't do with normal dice and pen and paper alone. Yes, you can spend more money to get more accessories - but you don't need to buy those accessories to play with more than 4 players, it's just optional. The reduction of careers is a concern, but may not be that big a deal - a lot of the careers in 2E were superfluous and could be condensed into one. We'll have to wait to see what kind of range of choice we have when the game is released (unless they give us a list beforehand).

They are very much interested in giving us a quality product. A crap product won't sell enough to be worthwhile. It is also contrary to the business plan of the company, which focuses on creating high quality goods to increase the value of their brand. From what I've seen of how the system works it seems to have a lot of potential. Whether they've maximised that potential is something else we'll have to wait to see.

Steerpike said:

Sheer nonsense you say? Congratulations, you''ve just won the overstatement of the year award.

Whatever impact on the "game" the rules and mechanics may have is of less importance. What is important however if the mechanics has a good or bad impact on the roleplaying. I tend to prefer systems that has a good impact on the roleplaying, rather than catering to the "gaming" aspects of it.

That being said, I can't see any definitive reason why the use of tokens, cards ans custom dice necessarily has to have a bad impact on the roleplaying. Call me superman if you will but I can make the difference between an RPG and a boardgame, despite the RPG incorporating all these "confusing" tokens, cards and dice...

Varnias Tybalt said:

An unsurprising resort to ad hominems in the last sentence and not based on anything I said. This is characteristic of people who can't deal with an opposing viewpoint without taking personal offense. I'll reserve my comments for those interested in discussing the topic. Thanks, though.

Gnutten said:

No im not. You see the difference between me and the naysayers here is the fact that they have already decided that this game will suck *ss. Im remaining ambivalent to it because I really don't agree with the statement that an RPG will stop being an RPG only because it includes dice, tokens and cards, or that the game MUST suck *ss because it includes these things. Im WAITING and SEEING before building an opinion. That's what men of science do...

Steerpike said:

Don't worry. You couldn't offend me personally even if you tried, so please do extrapolate your points if you have any...

macd21 said:

They are both interested in providing a quality product and also stringing out the consumer to continue to buy supplements over time. The two aren't mutually-exclusive. The question is whether the quality product they put is something we will be interested in playing. The more closely it approximates something like 4e D&D, the more likely I will stick with 2e WFRPG. I'm not going to take it personally that some people switch to 3e, however. I can play 2e indefinitely with the material I have now, and if I like what comes out in the 3e package then so much the better - I'll buy it.

Varnias Tybalt said:

I don't waste my time on forum trolls.

Varnias Tybalt said:

Varnias Tybalt said:

I wouldn't actually be surprised if the next WFRP supplement included a Jenga... in bright plastic...

or a dexterity element that requires you to staple all 30 happy happy shiny picture dices...

or (most likely) include booster packs where you get random action cards... who knows... you might actually draw that ultra rare card that lets you play halfling in this game!!!

Its just fine and dandy that you can enjoy your role playing with whatever toys or supplements you ever want... but what we evil and utterly shortsighted nay-sayers have a problem with is that these toys and gimmicks shouldn't be REQUIRED and INCLUDED and REPLACE your current RPG.

Steerpike said:

I've been going through every post I can find to figure as much about the system as I can and I'm fairly sure it won't be anything like 4ed DnD. As I said before, I think it has real potential. And a lot of that potential is due to the custom dice and the cards. The system would be somewhat unworkable without them (you'd spend most of the game trying to figure out the results of your dice rolls and then looking up tables to find out what they meant). With them they produce something quite interesting. It should also be fast and easy to figure out, making it easier to be stay immersed in the game (I hate having to look up the curse of Tzeentch or the Perils of the Warp, it totally breaks immersion).

Steerpike said:

Now who's getting personal here?

Last time i checked, forum trolls are just out to provoke and rant. And while my debating can certainly be considered provoking by some, it is never my intention from the very beginning. Don't blame me for being a troll just because you couldn't present better arguments...

Varnias Tybalt said:

Then I suppose that its also common for men of science to belittle everyone with an different opinion...

M.Sc.Mech.Eng btw... but evidently not a man of science...

Gnutten said:

Gnutten said:

I'll go for included, but tell me exactly why you consider it to be REQUIRED and REPLACING?

I throw rules and mechanics I don't like out the window all the time. That being said I also opt for certain editions over others, regardless of how old they might be. So no edition could never REPLACE another for me, even if FFG decided to send their nazi strike team to shove their latest edition of anything down my throat. Even if I might use stuff from newer editions while sticking to using the roles from older.

You should try it really. It's quite liberating.

Gnutten said:

Trust me, when im actively trying to belittle you or anyone else, you'll know it.

Thus far, I've been as nice and cheerful as a dolphin on sedatives.

Could it be that some people (not mentioning any names) might be a bit... You know... "touchy" and overly sensitive because they still feel bitter over the 3rd edition not being what they assumed it would be?

Varnias Tybalt said:

Correct, Jenga did not ruin the roleplaying experience, in fact Jenga worked exceptionally well for Dread . However, despite my positive experience I would not endorse Jenga for RPG task-resolution as a general principle.

Herr Arnulfe said:

Of course not. The company probably had some very specialized ideas behind using the jenga tower for that particular game in the first place, making it a tailor made method for that specific game. That's why it probably wouldn't be an appropriate method for any given RPG.

That being said, why would FFG do it any different? Can't we all agree that they have had a pretty good track record in making quality gaming products within several different specialized areas? Surely they must have made sure that the unconventional mechanics for WFRP 3rd ed are well motivated and function just as seamlessly with that game like the jenga tower did for Dread? Or at the very least, surely they must have had that goal in mind?

Just because something is gimmicky it doesn't necessarily mean that it's bad for the game, now does it?

Yeah, we have nothing to be upset about...

* The custom dice that are described as tool for "unparalleled story-telling options" are plain ugly and silly. The surely reminds me of the dice from Heroquest and the few time i played that game I can definitely say that I NEVER EVER had a comfy feeling that they might be a nice game mechanic to include in a proper role playing game. The custom dice we use in Decent does at least include more information than a regular d6. In this case you roll a hammer icon or a blank or a whatever. The use of special dice in Descent and Runebound get often slowed down by the simple fact that we have to find the correct dice for the attack at the moment and we spend a lot of time passing these dice around. You get an immediate need to buy more dice sets just to have a spare set on the table to be able to speed things up. The effect on a role playing game with 30 special dice will get even messier.

* The "Ranged Shot" you find on the Description side IS a D&D 4:ed action card... but (impressively enough) dumbed down to be able to use it with the silly Heroquest Dice. The card gives you the ability to do damage, damage +2 or to make a shift action. Smells rather D&D 4:ed with the exception that we don't even have a damage dice....

* Keep HP on cards decks?? Cause numbers are difficult? Darn I got hurt, tap 2 mountains?

* The party sheet??? Does this go well together with the normal freedom of a RPG group? Well we pulled (or chooses, whatever) the "Sword for Hire" group card so I suppose we all have to be mercenaries now? Sigh, just glad we didn't pull the "Cracpot Ninjas" or "Elven Village People" cause that sort of limit our character selection. With this clever tool you just don't limit yourself to archetype characters but even archetype groups... good storytelling??

* Stances? Sounds like a cheap trick to simulate tactics in a RPG. Add one dice if you want, but know that one side of 8 has the "GM kick you in the nuts" symbol.

* Card for careers? We take away the plethora of existing careers just do select some dozens of them and put them on cards. All this so the GM can let the players pull a career from a deck? Hey, now you c the troll slayer... and now you don't. Aha I watched The Sting seven hundred times just to be able to do funky tricks with the career deck WHOOZA!! To bad my dog chewed up the Templar card so you cant play Templar anymore...

* Changing the time line? Not sure if this is official yet but it surely helps current players to include these new rules in their campaigns... oh btw... you know all the stuff we played though the last years... it didn't happen btw...

* Play human, dwarf, elf or elf? We take away halflings from the game cause they're not cool enough? I think it goes rather ill with the fluff that the Wood elves would bother about the areas outside their woods. Halflings are WAY more common in the empire. The only reason I can c behind this selection is that developers think Drizzt and Legolas are cool and that this is the type of character archetypes the players should be forced into. Exactly how hard would it be to include halflings into the main game? Wizard made the same utterly bumd idea when the suddenly excluded Gnomes from 4:ed and decided to include Ninja Turtles instead...oh srry, they called them Dragonborn.

* The pawns? Don't want them... will never use them... do NOT want to pay for them so PLEASE don't include them in a base set. Just reminds me of Deciphers ABOMINATION called LOTR role playing adventure game. Did ANYONE actually play that game?

* Biiiig 100$ box. Is this really the only way to get the game? Buy the books separately? So I don't have to pay for the other stuff I don't want? And limited to 4 players including GM as a little bonus.

We get all this innovative new and fresh news instead of more adventures and source books for our current game! As a bonus we also re sett the book flow so we get the books we already have adapted for the new edition. So we get a new Sigmar Heir 3:ed, a Ruinous power source book 3:ed... sure fun to read all stuff one more time adapted to Heroquest dice.

Sure the nay-sayers are all just an bunch if shortsighted and utterly bumb people who don't know proper RPG. As a bonus they also torture kittens.

Now I got really tired of this stupid discussion...

Gnutten said:

I'm guessing this is actually due to player demand, BI was very odd about whether or not Wood Elves and Laurelorn Elves were the same so it looks like FFG have grabbed the bull by the horns and said "Bugger it, if it lives in a wood, smells like an elf and people think he's a bit of a ***** its a Wood Elf"

So fair play to them

Halflings are a tad silly and I've never actually known anyone who really wanted to play a short guy who eats pies... possibly because I know a lot of short guys who eat pies in real life and what sort of a roleplaying stretch is that? They still exist in the setting, they've not gone the way of the Gnome or Hobgoblin just yet and will return to haunt us still.

Christ... defending 3rd edition, I must be tired, time for bed

Gnutten said:

Just some response about these three points:

* I remember long discussions in the past of people saying that having more than one attack was bad for the creativity in battle, since people would always take the Swift Attack action, and not explore any other options to fight (why should they? they have two attacks!). With these stances, the players are reminded they have other options and this can prevent combat from becoming dull and unimaginative ("push him back so he's in sight of the archer again? But then I'd have to sacrifice my Swift Attack! Nah, he's good here.")

* People seem to forget the one reason why the rulebook was always opened at a session (at least for my party), to see what Talents and Skills a career had when the players got their XP. Now everything is on the card, and they can decide faster what to get. For me, that's a good thing.

* Yep, changing the time line. Oh btw... you know all the stuff we played through the last years... it just became official, because one of the MAJOR complaints about WFRP v2 (aside from the encumbrance ) was Storm of Chaos. I've seen too many threads saying "-bleep- this, for our campaign, we follow the events of the Enemy Within and not Storm of Chaos". For a lot of players the campaign was either set before SoC or it just didn't happen (or it did, but on a smaller scale, and hey, won't you believe it, none of the campaigns are situated in that small part of the Empire).

Speaking of encumbrance, if FFG has fixed that, I'm positive everyone will say they perfected WFRP

sudden real said:

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I almost chocked on my sausage while reading this

Artaxerxes said:

Well rolling dices (drawing cards, playing Jenga...) and pretending you are someone you are not is probably a tad silly too but I like it.

Only thing that is somewhat a definitive put-off for me in WFRP v3 is no Halflings clause and their replacement with another Elven race because it might be indicative of the direction they (FFG) are taking the game.

I have much more difficulty starting as a Kithband Warrior (or Sigmar forbid Wardancer) then starting as a Halfling Field Warden or Dilettante. For me these 'salt-of-the-earth' race and career combinations are the 'main dish' of the role-playing in the Old World and Elves and Troll Slayers are just desserts. You can not only live on sweets you have to eat some sausages too.

So, I am probably a very small minority. I can understand rules changes as somewhat of necessity (although I have grognardish and clear preference for v1 - especially setting) but I will defend Halflings as viable race and important segment of Old World till you pry a pie from my cold, dead, fingers

Since you bring up Halflings again...

In my opinion the Halflings offer an interesting alternative in regards to roleplaying a character. I think that if you really like to roleplay and step into the mind of the character, playing a Halfling really helps to bring out some interesting character development and emotion. You can choose one of the other races and try to develop your character into the ultimate badass in the typical style. Or you can choose a Halfling who is small and pudgy and has known only comfort his whole life until the day that Chaos comes knocking. I think that type of situation allows for a lot of great character development and growth if that's what you're drawn to. The Halfling really is challenged to overcome his fears, weaknesses, and self-doubts. The player has to work to find some way for the character to adapt, overcome, and grow (figuratively speaking). Yes, that could be said with any other race, but playing the Halfling really forces you into it. If you're into this style of roleplay, its often the faults and weaknesses of the characters that make things the most interesting. And that's the special draw with WFRP. It's dark and grim and not everybody is a hero. Most people are just common folk forced into potentially heroic situations, which of course usually end up in some bad way.

And so in that regard, let me just say that Halflings are also good because they are small and good at running and hiding...

Halflings are an interesting and important race option for WFRP. They are not, however, a popular option. High Elves and Wood Elves are simply far, far more popular. Taking up space in the core with a race that only a tiny minority of players will ever use is a waste of space and money. If one of your players wants to play a halfing they can buy the expansion that they'll be described in.