You're wrong: halflings are great.

Ever since 1st edition, I've loved halflings.

Here's a little treat for you all to remind you of the glory days of halflings from back in the day.

I present to you: A Halfling eating sausage.

OH the GLORY DAYS! OH HOW I SHALL MISS YOU!!!!

Varnias Tybalt said:

Item 1:

I have played, GMed and own all Kult products that have been published in English. Black Madonna is the book that makes me deeply regret not knowing Swedish.

For me, Kult was and is basically Gnostic Dark Fantasy in which player is already/always the victim. Even if s/he is committing atrocities (Which are, BTW, not necessary for playing the game - You could also go down the Right hand path and do the Buddha - Check out Legions of Darkness) s/he is still very much victim of the setting that basically deals with men’s alienation from both the nature and the culture.

So, basically when we played Kult we did not do it to annoy our parents but to explore these subjects. We did not do it by pretending that we are Nazis but basically by pretending that we are Jews in the Konzentrationslager wanting to escape. You could be a kapo but still you are an inmate.

I hope you’ll agree that is somewhat different than playing Space Nazis Exterminate Another Planet.

Item 2:

I don’t think that you are puerile or insane (I don’t know you that well) BUT I do think that indulging in excessive and pointless violence in games and childish fascination with it is both puerile and stupid. I am not Tipper Gore. I do not mind excessive violence on moral grounds but on aesthetic and political ones. That particular ‘style’ reminds me of early post-Watchmen and post-DKR comics that featured excessive violence in order to hide lack of any real story or narrative development.

BTW, only FPS that I like is Call of Duty. You are killing Nazis so it is OK in my book. It teaches you a positive lesson.

Item 3:

If Dark Heresy is played straight out of the box and by closely following GW’s post-Rogue Trader development guidelines of the 40k universe, it plays like particularly unfunny session of The Paranoia. Even in Nazi Germany there was more subtlety than that.

Of course YMMV and since it is not likely that we will ever play together (you being on the extreme north of the continent in Norsca and me being on the far south of the continent in Border Princes) I think that this disagreement is a cordial one.

Item 4:

You are wrong. Altdorf Hitler is small time agitator and failed painter rousing rabble after blood bowl events against Halflings. He is opposed by Mootfia and local community. He is secretly being supported by Skavens who hope that by getting rid of those pesky Halflings they will be able to start their own warp-tainted pie business. Downfall of mankind starts with the pie! Of course, Simon Wiesenthal, that old witch hunter is hot on his trail. So it is Skavens and Agitators and Rabble vs Witch Hunter and Ratcatchers and Mootfia in no holds barred free for all.

At least both of us got an idea for a adventure out of this debate

Necrozius said:

You obviously haven't played Fear the Worst? Beacuse, if you did you would know that there is no innocent sausage in the Old World.

Cat that Walked by Himself said:

Oh yes, it's very different and im not trying to sell them off as similar.

I just commented on the gravy that comes with the games, and that during their respective times they can/could be seen as blatantly politically incorrect. And you know im drawn to that incorrectness. Political correctness only serve to make people stupid anyway.

Now me saying that might give people the impression that im a covert closet neo-nazi who hates gay people and something like that. But the reality is far from it. I have many times given a lot of outspoken racists, neo-nazis, bigots and other form of general idiots some of the meanest and most intellectual smackdowns in debates.

It's just that, sadly, the PC-ites have fallen down into the same category of idiocy (especially in my country). Political correctness have served to make people just as bigoted and intolerant to other opinions like racism and homophobia tend to do. It has even went so far that the academic world has started to indulge in anti-inellectual behavior and studies, all according to the playing tunes of political correctness.

Im a man of science and truth. I don't do politics, I just speak out against them just like I speak out against other forms of idiocy. And the reason for me liking the "Space Nazis Exterminate Another Planet" setting is because I believe that the first signs of political correctness comes when you start to apply it even in fantasy settings and make-believe scenarios. By then, you really should let yourself go a little and stop being so frakking serious about everything. Sadly I have seen this occuring on some swedish RPG-forums as well, where the full flaming so called "intellectual" PC-ites, want to transform medival fantasy worlds into more "gender neutral" settings, because they don't like how women are treated in those kinds of settings.

That would be like barging into a session of Dark Heresy and start complaining about the Imperium of Man's fascist and genocidal views of the universe at large, and start whining about how such view led to the holocaust and all manner of horrible things in the real world.

For heaven's (or hell's) sake, RELAX a little! It's not real, it's make-believe! And if it can provide an interesting story I'd gladly include all sorts of hateful, genocidal, fascist, homophobic and misogynistic aspects to the game. (in fact, I think I know a game that has all these things, and it is one of the best RPG's ever )

Political correctness shouldn't govern cultural expressions (like movies, music, RPG's etc.). Politics are important for the real world, and should be kept there instead of trying to force it's way into the fantasy world as well. Because the more that happens, the closer we get to having an Orwellian Thought Police.

Cat that Walked by Himself said:

For me the only priority is aesthetics. As I said above, politics should stay out of the fantasy worlds I like to frequent. They are not VIP members in my club, if you catch my drift?

As for Watchmen, you're completely right. It is simply beyond comparison with most other comics out there. Perhaps that's why I don't really take much interest in many of the super-hero comics by Marvel, and DC and whatever these companies are called. However I do confess that im intrigued by the idea and concept of The Punisher, and due to my disregard and antipathy towards political correctness I guess you can see why.

However our taste in video-games do seem to differ, and while your reason for liking Call of Duty is as valid as any, I don't really like when games are trying to teach me anything. Im an adult, and we have had plenty of history lessons in school, so we know how bad the nazis were and why we should do our best to stay away from such methods and way of thinking in the real world. I don't need my entertainment to shove the same lessons down my throat as well.

For instance, that's why I really disliked the re-make of the man from mars (called the Day the earth stood still with Keanu Reeves). The entire movie just felt like a giant moral cookie being crammed down my throat about how I should recycle more often and don't leave lights on at home. And naturally when you try to cram too much food (of any kind) down your throat, the gag reflex tend to set in.

Cat that Walked by Himself said:

Hehe, well I consider myself to be a native denzien of the Chaos wastes rather than Norsca.

But about the subtelty, I guess this is also a reason that makes Dark Heresy interesting from a roleplaying perspective. The fact that the genocidal creed of the Imperium of Man is so grossly unsubtle, but when the PC's (player characters now, not PC-ites ) get involved with generally more pragmatic Inquisition, they are forced to come to the realisation that the Imperium of Man's most high regarded officials aren't always the notorious alien-hater fascists like most people would believe. (Although there certainly are plenty of those as well, but they are normally not held in the highest regard within the Inquisition).

In any case, disagreement is good. You know as long as we don't break out tanks and atomic bombs to further our own points regarding the topics we're disagreeing about (a mistake that some of the world leaders have been known to make).

Cat that Walked by Himself said:

Indeed. Debating can be like... halfling baked pie (pun intended ) in that regard.

ChaosChild said:

Varnias Tybalt said:

Leogun_91 said:

Uhm, sure go ahead... But what are you going to call them? "Gingerbread elves"?

Varnias Tybalt said:

the bit that peev's most people off is jay's promise to deliver more wfrp2 releases when the pdf's came out.

WFRP v3 is like converting it to d20, i was attracted to wfrp for the system.. if FFG listend to the public they wanted more soucre books and a revised existing bookes.. would have gladley bought ne main book wiht all the new carrerers adenums etc

Im sure more of the community would have liked input into the next version or revision

WfrpV3 is more suited to xbox 360 to pen and paper... oh thants right no pen and paper; just crap loads of dice tokens and cards.. Wfrp the gathering

VonMoose said:

Even allowing for hyperbole, that just strikes me as ridiculous. If you can have an pen and paper RPG with dice and character sheets, adding a few tokens and cards isn't going to suddenly strangle your imagination. Just because there are cards and funny looking dice on the table, there's nothing stopping you from roleplaying.

Ye Ancient One said:

What this person said.

PLUS: d20s, d10s and all the other dice look funny enough, admit it guys.

Seriously: show a d20 or d4 to a co-worker or peer who doesn't play our geeky games and watch their reaction.

Necrozius said:

Couldn't have said it better myself. (that goes for the both of you).

Necrozius said:

Well... it surely doesn't get better by showing them the tacky dice with nonsense pictures on them...

The argument that people shouldn't be upset about the new edition and its plethora of board game elements with the reason that its still a role playing game and that this is just tools to form the story falls rather flat...

The main hole in this reasoning is that we don't NEED 30 shiny picture dice, ten gazillion cards, Arkham horror pawns and a new edition to tell the story.

Aye, I surely prefer the "character sheet game" instead of the "100$ big box with Pokemon toys"

I can honestly say that I haven't seen anything in the amount of information that we received that makes me think this edition will be ANY form of improvement.

If they made a Descent type board game in Warhammer setting I would praise Nurgle and buy it in an instant.
If they made a Axis and Allies type board game in Warhammer setting I would praise Nurgle and buy it in an instant.
If they made a Runebound type board game in Warhammer setting I would praise Nurgle and buy it in an instant.

But when they kill off my favorite role playing game and replaces it with Descent without board it just pisses me off.

and oh... The Black Madonna is a kick arse adventure. =)

Gnutten said:

If I reasoned like that then FFG would lose a devoted customer. I don't NEED rulebooks or supplements for Dark Heresy or Rogue Trader. Emperor knows I already have enough backstory information in my head alone to create intriguing adventures in a 40K setting, and the best roleplaying system ever created can be found in the swedish produced RPG called "Noir". (seriously, that rulesystem could take any other RPG system over the knee and spank it silly).

So by your reasoning, im set with everything I need already to do interesting stories in a 40K setting... But you know what? That line of thought also kill innovation. Why bother trying to do things differently when you can just stick to what you've always used?

I mean, why do you use a vaccum cleaner for cleaning, when you could just as well use a broom? The broom has always been a foolproof method of cleaning a room hasn't it?

But if you prefer to be anti-innovation, then that's your prerogative. Im not gonna force you...

Cat that Walked by Himself said:

Yes, but as was said by the halfling PC when I ran Fear the Worst during the WFRP2 playtest, "It's not cannibalism if I'm not the same species as the meat."

Gnutten said:

If all these counters, cards and "Arkham Horror Pawns" make this roleplaying game more of an actual GAME rather than a cerebral exercise in SERIOUS BUSINESS, then Huzzah! My friends will actually want to play!

Sorry that this version won't work for you. Luckily, FFG isn't going to go all "Fahrenheit 451" and burn all of your 2e books, so you'll definitely be able to indulge in your roleplaying experience the way you want to.

Or if you're too bitter, there are hundreds of other roleplaying games out there- some that hardly use ANY dice at all. Of any kind.

Necrozius said:

Yeah. I remember this one game, it was in a horror setting and it didn't use dice at all. It used this sort of gimmicky jenga tower instead, and every time you tried to "push your skills/luck" in getting something done, you hade to pull a block from "the tower". If at any time "the tower" should fall, you fail in the worst possible manner, often leading to death, permanent insanity or something like that. However you could opt to fail during certain situations in order to prevent your faliure of being so harsh.

Also, from what you've might have guessed, this game didn't use nearly as many "skillrolls" as conventional RPG's. Most of the time the GM and the players just made up what they were doing and decided whether they succeed or fail depending on what type of character they were playing.

And there you have it. An RPG with no dice what so ever, only a jenga tower. Can't remember what the game was called though. But still, it was an innovative idea...

To me a RPG should be playable with a book, some easily found dice, and a pencil or pen. The addition of accessories is fine as long as they aren't required.

FFG seems to of focused on creating marketing scam to force players to have to purchase their dice instead of using dice all role-players already have. They also expect you to spend $100 to allow 4 players to play and spend more money on toolkits to add more players. They’ve taken 100s of careers down to 50 and spread out the rest into future supplements so you have to buy them to get all the careers. They aren’t interested in giving you a quality product; they’re interested in creating a system that requires you to spend hundreds of dollars to get the same content that you could have gotten in one book. The 1st edition main rule book is a great example of a quality product packed with everything you needed to play. 2nd edition split out stuff into a Bestiary and an Armory book which I didn’t like, but that is nothing compared to what FFG is doing. They’re taking advantage of the fans by trying to change the system into a cash cow.

The real question isn’t whether the 3rd edition is better or worst, fun or not, a RPG or board game. The real question, as the consumer, is whether we’re willing to allow them to take advantage of us by supporting this sort of a marketing scam. Supporting it only helps set precedence for these types of scams.

Varnias Tybalt said:

The game is Dread . I played it with the designer at Gencon a couple years ago and had a blast.

Necrozius said:

Well sure, I've got V1 and V2 stuff to play many years to come.

But when Hogshead died and the official support of the game vanished I was sad...

this is actually worse...

Herr Arnulfe said:

That's it! "Dread", I did recall the name being pretty short and conscise.

But tell me, did this gimmicky approach for a random chance element completely stifle your creativity and roleplaying?

Varnias Tybalt said:

But tell me, did this gimmicky approach for a random chance element completely stifle your creativity and roleplaying?

It worked great for Dread's style of one-shot atmospheric horror, but I wouldn't want to play WFRP with Jenga. In particular, after the tower had fallen and been re-deployed, you had at least 5-6 "pulls" that were basically guaranteed successes. So the tension would build gradually after each PC death. Not quite as random and unpredictable as WFRP should be (just my opinion).

Varnias Tybalt said:

Well the problem in this case isn't that FFG want me to replace a broom with a vacuum cleaner...

They want me to replace my working vacuum cleaner with a broom with a flashy "vacuum cleaner" sticker.

And to make a "cut and paste" maneuver to copy the action cards from D&D 4:ed, mix in some cards and tokens from Descent and finally put an RPG label on it is not my idea of innovation...

Gnutten said:

You do realize that all you're doing right now is forming your entire opinion from the first glance of this game right?

How can you really know anything about the innovation involved? Do you have some hidden insight into how these gimmicky tokens, dice and cards will interact with the rules at all?

You think that this product LOOKS like cards from DnD 4th ed,. You think that the tokens LOOKS like the one from Descent.

By that reasoning, I could say that I think that this new cellphone LOOKS like an electric shaver, therefore it must be an electric shaver that the electric shaver company just tries to pass off as a cellular phone...

Varnias Tybalt said:

And youre not?????!!!!

Varnias Tybalt said:

This is a poor analysis. If what you say here is taken at face value, then there is no reason to prefer any one RPG system or mechanic over another, because none of that matters because it's all about roleplaying. Sheer nonsense. Even though you are roleplaying and most of that occurs in the imagination, the mechanics can and do have a substantive impact on the game.