I gotta ask you gloomy naysayers out there:

Don't you realize that an RPG is about roleplaying?

So what if the administrative tools for the roleplaying game are new/different/unconventional (like dice, character sheets, pencils, papers, cards, Gm screens, whatever). The game is still about roleplaying, and from the information released I can't say that i've seen anything that hints towards it being anything else than an RPG.

Or should I just assume that you whining people don't really play RPG's at all when you play WFRP, but rather play a "character sheet game", and that's why you are so pissed of at the third edition for not having conventional roleplaying tools?

And please, refrain from questioning my knowledge of Warhammer in general because I have been familiar with both Warhammer and 40K for years. The thing is that Warhammer Fantasy as an RPG never appealed to me very much so I've never felt inclined to get it (Dark Heresy being a total different matter).

But BECAUSE of this 3rd edition being played in such an unconventional manner I might actually buy it! I'm used to the conventional way of administrating an RPG (with dice, pen, paper and rulebooks), and sure it works and im happy with it. But there's nothing saying that it can't be improved, it's just that very few companies have actually tried to do it.

But still, it's an RPG. And an RPG isn't about character sheets, building stats, dungeon crawling or getting loot (regardless of what experiences you might have of MMO's or the worst kind of dungeon crawling from DnD). It's about roleplaying, and most of that occurs inside our heads, not on a piece of paper.

Or have you people simply forgotten that fact?

Varnias Tybalt said:

Yes, maybey so, but all the information I've seen so far is not promoting roleplaying. In fact, it seems like the oposite!

im not a naysayer and fully intend on buying the game even if it is a flop but, CHANGE IS SCARY.

Captin' said:

But seriously, how can you promote roleplaying any more than by saying that it is an RPG? I mean, RPG's has been around for ages and most players know what it is and how it works.

So then what can you promote? The game world?

Sure, if it was a new game world. But the Warhammer fantasy game world is already familiar, not only to the people that have played first edition and second edition of WFRP, but also to the players of Warhammer Fantasy Battles as well.

So, when we have eliminated those two promoting aspects. What are we left with? Why the new administrative tools for the game of course!

Sure, they could put a lot less emphasis on these gimmicks, but then you'd be left with something like this:

"Warhammer Fantasy Role Play. It's the third edition. It's an RPG and it is set in the Warhammer fantasy world and setting. Oh and it has some new dice and stuff also..."

Sure, it is informative and contains enough for anyone to get what it is about. But doesn't that description sound a bit... "empty" to you? If we're already familiar with both the gaming world and the way you play an RPG, isn't it safe to assume that most customers (newcomers and oldes alike) would want to know what NEW aspects this edition will bring to the hobby?

Istivan said:

Scary? I don't think so.

Then again I am a flaming Tzeentch cultist by night! (and that goes for either Warhammer setting)

Many people that aren't receptive of the new edition are like that for a wide variety of reasons. Your question above here is arrogant and smug. If you were serious about your points or questions you wouldn't immediately start your post like that.

There are many games that are about roleplaying, people like and dislike them for various reasons. Not all roleplaying games are created equal, just because they are a roleplaying games.

Don't play coy here. You already feel that way and this post is just to your way of making that point. Why dance around it?

WFRP 2E did, however, appeal to a great number of people. Many of these people see no reason for a new edition. For myself, it's the most enjoyable roleplaying game I've ever played. My group enjoys it more than any other game and my local gaming store (a very successful game store at that) has enjoyed it being thier best selling roleplaying game.

I actually don't think it will be played in a very unconventional manner. From what I've read (after the enlightening rpgnet post) its very similar to the previous edition, with the addition of cards to use instead of tables. Some people just don't see the need for it and would rather see FFG's energies given to expanding the game under 2E. There were plenty of areas in the Old World that were left untouched in 2E. Now we will see the game start over and those areas will most likely move to the back of the line again.

An RPG is about whatever the player and gamemaster make it. If the players are happy on focusing on dungeon crawling then great. Dungeon crawling and roleplaying are not mutually exclusive. Many of my WFRP games involved delving into some old dwarf tomb or chasing Skaven through forlorn sewers. I suppose those games don't fit your version of roleplaying?

Who knows what people have forgotten, but you seem determined to categorize everyone that way... which as I said above, was the entire point of your post.

Many people that aren't receptive of the new edition are like that for a wide variety of reasons. Your question above here is arrogant and smug. If you were serious about your points or questions you wouldn't immediately start your post like that.

There are many games that are about roleplaying, people like and dislike them for various reasons. Not all roleplaying games are created equal, just because they are a roleplaying games.

Don't play coy here. You already feel that way and this post is just to your way of making that point. Why dance around it?

Because im arrogant and smug?

But that put aside, must my arrogance and smug demeanor necessarily mean that I don't wish to know the real reasons behind the somewhat over-the-top negative remarks about this game? (even if I do intend to argue my point of course, but that's the whole point of a discussion anyway so you can't really hold that against me)

WFRP 2E did, however, appeal to a great number of people. Many of these people see no reason for a new edition. For myself, it's the most enjoyable roleplaying game I've ever played. My group enjoys it more than any other game and my local gaming store (a very successful game store at that) has enjoyed it being thier best selling roleplaying game.

Good for you and them! (no sarcasm or arrogant smugness now, totally candid and honest remark)

I actually don't think it will be played in a very unconventional manner. From what I've read (after the enlightening rpgnet post) its very similar to the previous edition, with the addition of cards to use instead of tables. Some people just don't see the need for it and would rather see FFG's energies given to expanding the game under 2E. There were plenty of areas in the Old World that were left untouched in 2E. Now we will see the game start over and those areas will most likely move to the back of the line again.

Well, sure I can relate to feeling a bit disappointed about FFG not exploring those unexplored venues that you speak of. But really, should the third edition really have to stand for such a barrage of vitriol and mean-spirited bitterness?

I mean, if the old players are so fine and dandy about the 2nd edition (and it's safe to assume that they own copies of that game), why not just stick with that edition and just be happy (or at the very least indifferent) to the fact that FFG wants to take a new approach to roleplaying games with the third edition?

Why ***** so much about it, if the 2nd edition is sooo good and "superior" to this new edition?

An RPG is about whatever the player and gamemaster make it. If the players are happy on focusing on dungeon crawling then great. Dungeon crawling and roleplaying are not mutually exclusive. Many of my WFRP games involved delving into some old dwarf tomb or chasing Skaven through forlorn sewers. I suppose those games don't fit your version of roleplaying?

Who knows what people have forgotten, but you seem determined to categorize everyone that way... which as I said above, was the entire point of your post.

No it wasn't, you just assumed that was my point. And I don't believe you can read minds either (your theory about what my real point is proves that fact).

And while I do agree that any given gaming group should stick to what they think is fun, the gaming form is called an RPG (ROLEPLAYING GAME) for a reason. Hence it is completely fine to assume that roleplaying is what the game is primarily intended to be about and should be considered the norm, regardless if individual groups wish to deviate from that norm or not.

And you gotta admit that my point is pretty valid, especially since many posters have accused the third edition for being a "boardgame" and a "cardgame" and whatnot. My question is: what kind of solid basis do they have for such statements? Is it because the game contains cards?

By that reasoning, is it safe to assume that playing yahtzy is the same thing as playing an RPG, because both games use dice, pencil and paper?

Sorry man, but your post came across as very smug and condescending. If that wasn't your intention, I'm not sure what to tell you.

Why ***** so much about it, if the 2nd edition is sooo good and "superior" to this new edition?

For the reasons that I listed above. Many products that might have been released to expand 2nd Edition won't be released now. To be honest, that is one of my only concerns. I'm also not keen on the idea of the little character boxes

And you gotta admit that my point is pretty valid, especially since many posters have accused the third edition for being a "boardgame" and a "cardgame" and whatnot. My question is: what kind of solid basis do they have for such statements? Is it because the game contains cards?

Sure, there have been some people complaining loudly that they don't like the direction the game is taking. They don't like aspects of boardgames or cardgames being included with the new edition of the game. You may like, they don't. They have as much right to complain about it as you do to support it. Either way, someone's dislike over the inclusion of these things in their game doesn't mean they don't know what roleplaying is, and you seemed to assume as much.

Shadowspawn said:

See what I mean? You are not too keen on the idea of little character boxes. (im not condescending you for this, but please bear with me)

It seems like the main gripe with this game is about the accessories it has integrated. FFG took away your precious character sheets and replaced them with these silly, fidgety little cards, tokens and crap like that. And for that, the game deserves to be called the official end of WFRP, and suffer threats of boycott and similar stunts? (note that im not directing this question and the following at you personally/specifically Shadowspawn, but more in general to the outspoken negative critics on the boards)

So I ask, do these people actually call themselves roleplayers, when they are so overly concerned about friggin accessories and gaming tools? They are just gimmicks for heavens sake! It's still a roleplaying game, it's the same Warhammer Fantasy world that we all know (and some of you love, even if I don't), the only thing that has indications of being changed are the conventional gaming accessories and tools to provide elements of chance (like having a deck of cards instead of rolling a die and looking at a table in the rulebook).

What are you afraid of? That the neighbours will think that you look stupid because you fiddle around with these cards, tokens and character boxes? Hate to break it to ya lads, but your neighbours probably think you look stupid for playing RPG's anyway. Regardless of the accessories you use.

(above comment was not meant as an insult, because it would've kicked me in the groin as well since im a proud roleplayer myself)

Oh and my question still stands (even if I do appriciate you answering me Shadowspawn, but I stress the point once again that these questions are not directed at you primarily, even if you're perfectly welcome to give me your theories if you want). Does a game including cards and tokens necessarly make it a boardgame or a cardgame? Does playing a game that includes dice, pencils and paper mean that it is EXACTLY the same as playing an RPG?

A BETTER comparison is Descent and this RPG. Many have tried Descent as an RPG and failed because Descent is actually a Tactical Squad based game. So, just because Descent has dice, cards, and action dynamic that may be close to what WFRP will have in it's v.3, tokens, and with RtL, boxes to store characters in, does that make it a Roleplaying game?

GreyLord said:

This is a CLARIFICATION of the Yahtzee comparison which was obviously a slam to try to diminish the other posters feelings. I simply posted something FAR closer to what the newer WFRP edition will have/be like as the question is far more relavant to THAT then Yahtzee probably (though I too have used Yahtzee in my statements...and from what I see, YES the new WFRP DOES have similarities to Yahtzee, primarily that you are going to be trying to roll multiples of certain symbols/die sides for successes), but I still think Descent has FAR more similarities and a more APT comparison.

It seems like the main gripe with this game is about the accessories it has integrated. FFG took away your precious character sheets and replaced them with these silly, fidgety little cards, tokens and crap like that. And for that, the game deserves to be called the official end of WFRP, and suffer threats of boycott and similar stunts? (note that im not directing this question and the following at you personally/specifically Shadowspawn, but more in general to the outspoken negative critics on the boards)

It's statements like the above that don't help advance your theories. By calling our "precious" chracter sheets you immediately suggest that we are wrong to not want to move away from that. I mean, it's character sheet, as integral to a roleplaying game as anything can be at this point.

So I ask, do these people actually call themselves roleplayers

I'm going to stop right there, because man.. even though you say you are not being smug, you really are. Its just not worth it man.

Shadowspawn said:

No, I did say I was smug. But in a good way. You see we have to do something about the impending doom atmosphere that has arisen because of this game. Because the fans here seem to have gotten a bit too stuck in with the game and take things a bit too seriously, so I belittle and condescend the conventional aspects of conventional RPG's. You know, to take the edge out of it. And seriously, if you or anyone else actually takes offense because I do that then you suffer from problems best adressed by a professional (no joke).

So come on now, let's take a little more lighthearted look at the game and THEN form some opinions. Instead of just hacking away at it in such a foul mood.

It's just a game after all, and a character sheet is just a piece of paper. It's not the end of the world (neither the Warhammer world nor the real one).

I don't know if you're familiar with the late comedian Bill Hicks, but he once did a joke involving marijuana and road rage. He suggested that marijuana shouldn't only be legal but mandatory for some people. Like those guys stuck in traffic, hanging over their car horns making noise and getting angrier and angrier. Then a policeman would roll up to the side, step out and hold out a reefer and say: "SMOKE IT! It's the LAW!"

The angry driver takes a whiff and goes: "Woah! Sorry, I just took life seriously for a minute there, Won't happen again, promise! *poff*!

In this OP im acting like the pot dealing police officer.

So: SMOKE IT! It's the LAW!

(and no I am in now way condoning anyone to imbibe any proscribed substances, so please don't accuse me of doing so. Im just drawing a parallel to a dead comedian that I really like in order to get my point across. And if anyone think's that it is tasteless to use a joke about drugs then that's your problem and you should keep it to yourself)

There has been alot of debate in past forum topics.

Generaly people have said that they would prefer an expansion of the existing world vs a new edition.

As to the naysayers; it probably doesnt help that we dont have alot of information.( maybe that will change as more detail comes to light ). I think as far as change management has gone FFG has dropped the ball, so the quicker they get information out there the better.

I have concerns to

* Cost ( non US countries) dispite the exchange rate in Australia we could end up paying double

* System (need more info) from what snippits i have i get the impression dice rolling is more important, therefore less roleplay

I think there are two main reasons why people are upset:

1. At first glance WFRP3 looks like the boardgames that people have seen in the past that were primarily boardgames but could also be roleplayed to a degree with relatively basic rules and limitations on what you could have your player do. These were games like Hero Quest, Warhammer Quest, the D&D Adventure Boardgame, etc. I've never personally played any of these games, and though they do look like a lot of fun and could be roleplayed to a degree, they are not RPGs like WFRP or DH. They were designed to be quick, hack and slash dungeon crawls played in a couple of hours or so.

Now, FFG has told us that the WFRP3 is not a boardgame. They have given us little information otherwise, so until we learn more we have to take their word for it, though for now many remain skeptical. Many also feel that FFG is mirroring a lot of what WotC did with D&D 4E and are afraid because they didn't like the changes they saw with that edition.

Anyway, we're pretty much just left in the dark for now and just have to wait and see what WFRP3 will really be like.

2. Probably the main reason that people are upset is that they've put in all this energy and money into WFRP2, they've been looking forward to more books to come out, and now FFG comes out with a surprise and says let's start all over again with these new mechanics. That sucks! You really just feel like you had the rug pulled out from under you! Varnius, I think it may be harder for you to understand because, as you say, you do not play WFRP and so have not bought into the game. But, if you have similarly invested a lot of time and money into DH, you might be able to understand what it would feel like. Some players don't bother to buy their own copy of even the core rulebook, and others simply download illegal copies of the WFRP2 books for free. But there are over 25 books published for WFRP2, and a lot of good, dedicated fans who supported the game bought close to all if not all of them, spending $300-500 or more. Now for the publisher to come out and say they aren't going to publish more supplemental books, but instead will rehash all the old books for you to buy again to use with a new rules mechanic is frustrating and discouraging. A common response is "well, you can always just keep playing WFRP2 if you want." Well, over time it gets extremely difficult and expensive to obtain the out-of-print books that you had not already bought or lost. And unless you've got a solid, dedicated group to play with, it gets really hard to bring new players into the game when they can't even get a hold of the core books (Some people just do not like using PDFs).

A lot of fans are willing to spend money to support a roleplaying game for Warhammer Fanasy, but not like this. Some say that it's the nature of the beast and the only way to keep an RPG profitable - by reselling new versions every few years under new mechanics. Hopefully there's a better way.

Point #2 in Blue Wizard post explain perfectly the reaction of WFRP2 fans. I don't think it takes a PhD to understand that. Where is the Ulthuan and Athel Loren sourcebooks, for exemple? WFRP2 haven't developed much books to expended and developed the elves and dwarf specifically.

I agree, also, with the points made by Shadowspawn.

Blue Wizard said:

I don't care about the mechanics or the gimmicks- that I can live with and I can see past the fear of this being a boardgame, but that, Varnias, is probably the best answer to your questions. The fact that I have to buy EVERYTHING AGAIN (I own every WFRP 2 book minus Plundered Vaults) is absolutely the one thing that maybe is going to put me of from buying WFRP 3. Its not the mechanics or the fancy kewl new dice (although boxes is going to be a logistical nightmare), it's simply the fact that I feel disillusioned over the prospect of having to buy books describing what I already know from the 2nd. ed. books.

PS: Varnias, please don't be too smug and arrogant, it sets you in a very bad light that might determine whether or not your posts are worth replying. If you don't treat others with respect you won't get a discussion, but a mud-throwing contest. (Of course continue to smug and arrogant if you want to, I just won't think of you as someone worth replying.)

We should stop bickering before we have seen an actial demo of the new system.

IMO FFG could easily have made new flashy cards, other helpers for 2nd Ed and custom dice for more advanced rules instead of killing the distribution. It's really all about marketing, and the willingness to put in an effort. We are many that now believed that we had a stable 2nd Ed and could rely on new stuff coming as promissed. That's why I can understand why some are dissapointed.

buying everything over again is why I stopped playing AD&D when 2nd edition came out. It wasn't until late in the 3.5 edition that I picked it up again (A hiatus of over 15 years I'd estimate.) When I got in,I got in big, and bought lots of books and supplements. But with the shift to 4th edition, nothing from the previous is remotely able to make the transition (they don't even mention greyhawk in the PHB) because the rule mechanics are so very different. Sure, the background fluff could work, just re-stat everything manually, but for that amount of effort, I can make up my own world completely from scratch.

This is why I have yet to buy a single D&D 4th edition book. I don't support rule system transitions that leave so little commonality between them.

Thank you FFG, for putting a lot of work into making the 2nd edition PDF books available, even more with corrections. Sorry, I don't think I'll be buying your 3rd ed game. But look at it this way, you're getting my money twice since I'm buyng the pdfs (I own every 2nd ed book) so be happy with that.

Chernobyl

OK heres a few things to consider.

Say Dark Heresy 2nd ed, comes out in a big box with new custom dice, a bunch of cards, new books and not much other information. Wound you be happy with that? It's still even a future possibility.

Mostly its a few things, the bigest (for me anyway) is we kept getting told Its not a boardgame but are not being shown its not a board game. I'm sure anyone can list a few board games from FFG that have the same exact stuff listed only just with a board, hell I have even played the WoW boardgame as RPG lite.

The dice and cards while adding tools also add distractions on the gaming 'table'. Not to mention they make the game alot more difficuilt to modify and customise to your own playing style. Also because it generaly caters for only 3 players (and a GM) most groups will have to cut back on players or do something about extra sets. Haps they cant have even 2 playes with the same career.

On top of that its not even in a good price range for use as a source for fluff, though there is always a core of material that gets reprinted for a new edition before anything else gets done.

How is advancement kept track of, a core mechanic of RPGs is persistent character progression, a factor that seems to have been purposefully avoided being answered.

Alot of Warhammer players have been playing for 15+ years and have likely acumilated some of their own ways of doing things and likely a good collection of dice as well, both of which may just have to be thrown out the window if they go the path of third ed.

Over all though I think its simply the fact that FFG has kept everyone in the dark and not answering any questions, for what I can tell no reason other than to keep their fanbase in the dark.

When a third ed was asked about was their any reason not to say yes we are doing one but thats all we can say. Now its been announced all the fans get is a description that taks about the pritty price increasing bits but no information on the actual game fundementals it self.

The best bet is you likely wont understand because you have no investment in WFRP currently, likewise because I dont play Dark Heresy something like this being announced for it woulnt bother me either since I have no investment in Dark Heresy.

LordofEndTimes said:

Why do you have to buy everything all over again? I mean, if you (and the rest of the 2nd ed players) know that this third edition will probably contain the same stuff as previous incarnations, only with some new and gimmicky mechanics, then just don't buy it.

And as for the new content for 2nd ed issue. I don't know about you bu from what i've understood the core set of the third edition will contain about four books. It's pretty safe to assume that these will summarize most information about what has been written in previous supplements. This could mean that FFG could focus on releasing the wanted supplement material a lot quicker than before.

So my suggestion is that you refrain from buying the particular products that already contain the information you already know and focus on buying any eventual upcoming products that contain information that has been unkown to you so far. Sure, you might have to convert the mechanics a bit for 2nd ed, but seriously whenever I buy a supplement book I've always found mechanics that needs to be changed in some way, so that kind of headache is mandatory in this hobby anyway.

LordofEndTimes said:

Focus on what I say instead of how im saying it and everybody will be happy.

Still I find it funny that my demeanor has gotten so much attention. Because few people have reacted the same way towards the doom prophets on these messageboards that hold an equally bad and disrespectful demeanor. What's the matter really? Why should I be more "friendly" than they are?

Loswaith said:

This is how I would react: If I think this new 2nd edition of Dark Heresy contains enough interesting aspects, then I would buy it and try it out. On the other hand, if I felt that it simply contained the same stuff as before, only in a new package with uninteresting gimmicky mechanics, I wouldn't buy it. However I might buy any future supplements for it, if they seem to contain information that was never released to the edition I've invested in.

What I wouldn't do is calling the game dead, and moan that much about it nor accusing it of being a boardgame either. So why not show the world that you can all be just as graceful (and even more so) than that smug, arrogant bastard Varnias Tybalt?

Varnias Tybalt said:

I'm a huge fan of Dark Heresy (as demonstrated by my admin status over at Dark Reign), and I fully agree with this. It's pretty much exactly what I'd do should DH 2E be released in a few years time.

MILLANDSON said:

That's nice to hear. Because I was beginning to think that I might not be that big of a fan that I have so far considered myself to be, simply because I wouldn't be as upset and heartbroken like many of the posters here if FFG decided to do a 2nd edition of Dark Heresy with gimmicky mechanics.

Then again, now you and I might get accused for not being devoted enough to our game...

Blue Wizard said:

There are a few issues that could be really bad with this as well and as I am uncertain to how it actually will be those worst case scenario thoughts are forming and the only way to stop them will be answers........ and from what I know there are bad things as well.

I know that halflings dissapear and that is not good.....I like the fellas and even if there rarely is one in the group the same can be said for anything except humans.

There are less careers, sure one would have to excpect this there are hundreds in the career compendium but maybe I have to wait until the careers I want to play comes.....what if they removed Seaman....I don´t know which are gone. I will have at max 39 careers to chose from (apprentice wizard doesn´t count beacouse it´s a spellcaster and there might be more spellcasters there).

Two of three books are for magic (divine and arcane) and I´m not a big fan of magic.

I don´t like the cover artwork....not a big deal but still.

And as a sidenote I don´t think we have been told what´s in the fourth book, there is the tome of mystery, tome of blessings, tome of adventures and tome number four....what is in tome number four.