I would be perfectly fine if the game stuff they gave out was available for league play, but it isn't. And before the straw men come out: Obviously plaques that say 'world champion' on them shouldn't be sent out to every store. Things like the cool dice, and templates (minus the 'championship' wording) aren't though.

As Klutz pointed out, this seems to be your primary gripe. If so, take it up with Organized Play, not with the players here. For whatever reason (and there are plenty of arguments against your case, but this isn't the place for them) Fantasy Flight's Organized Play department has chosen to make certain prizes exclusive to their competitive structure. You cannot expect to win those prizes without participating in the competitive structure, so your options are (1) buy them from someone who did win them, (2) buy after market pieces that serve the same function, (3) try your hand at a competitive event while acknowledging that the atmosphere may be unfamiliar, (4) ignore those prizes, or (5) complain on the internet to a bunch of people who can't help you.

1- I personally am of camp number 1 in your option set.

2 - I may be wrong, but I am pretty sure that most aftermarket parts aren't legal. The only one I think that are is the rulers. Also there are a lot of people who only like playing with official things. That is where there was the huge dust up about the z-95 dials when scum came out.

3 - definitely an option that some people don't seem to want to choose.

4- see number 2

5 - I am pretty sure that is like 50% of what internet forums are used for

Also, I've seen TOs give out promos that were reserved for them (I think? I'm not positive how that works) but that they certainly didn't have to give out. I got a Soontir Fel alt art and a PtL alt art just for showing up to tournaments.

Yes, I've seen this over and over again.

People I've seen at tournaments tend to be pretty hungry for prizes, but pretty generous in making donations of their extras to the prize pool to add in some sweeteners beyond the basic kit. That's something you don't get if you don't have the serious players involved. Also, I've seen TOs give out promos that were reserved for them (I think? I'm not positive how that works) but that they certainly didn't have to give out. I got a Soontir Fel alt art and a PtL alt art just for showing up to tournaments.

I don't think that counts as sniping at that point

But the larger point still stands. If a group of people have no interest in competitive gaming, why are they hosting an event that's by it's very nature competitive?

This is the fundamental point, for me. If you want to play in a purely casual manner, you have every opportunity to do so. If you want to participate in a casual tournament, you can certainly structure one to fit any criteria you choose.

The only thing stopping your flgs, club, or group from holding a one-large-ship-only / no-phantoms-allowed / etc tournament is you.

Official FFG tournaments, on the other hand, are competitive by design. Complaining about the competitive nature of a competitive event is nonsensical, at best.

2 - I may be wrong, but I am pretty sure that most aftermarket parts aren't legal.

You are, completely wrong. All 3rd party stuff is legal, as long as both players agree to it.

That is where there was the huge dust up about the z-95 dials when scum came out.

The issue with the Z-95 dials was that we were told you couldn't use the Rebel Z-95 dial with a S&V ship, or visa versa.

But the larger point still stands. If a group of people have no interest in competitive gaming, why are they hosting an event that's by it's very nature competitive?

This is the fundamental point, for me. If you want to play in a purely casual manner, you have every opportunity to do so. If you want to participate in a casual tournament, you can certainly structure one to fit any criteria you choose.

The only thing stopping your flgs, club, or group from holding a one-large-ship-only / no-phantoms-allowed / etc tournament is you.

Official FFG tournaments, on the other hand, are competitive by design. Complaining about the competitive nature of a competitive event is nonsensical, at best.

See in bold. That, completely, utterly and totally that.

Now, how am I going to run a narrative campaign where the winners get a plaque/medals and good memories of being utterly badass?

2 - I may be wrong, but I am pretty sure that most aftermarket parts aren't legal. The only one I think that are is the rulers. Also there are a lot of people who only like playing with official things. That is where there was the huge dust up about the z-95 dials when scum came out.

There are a lot of aftermarket token vendors, and you will see their products all over the place from X-wing night at the store to elimination rounds at Worlds. A lot of them have cooler designs than the official tokens, too. In particular, check out the Applied Perspective Premium Assistance Pack and Premium Critical Damage Pack. These tokens serve functions that aren't covered by official tokens. Custom-ordered range rulers and maneuver templates often look a lot better than the official prizes (and are explicitly legal for tournament play).

To reiterate my point, like it or not, Organized Play has chosen to make some items (such as maneuver templates and transparent dice) more exclusive. They are awards for performing well at high-level events, and no players are entitled to a set of focus tokens because of their ZIP codes.

2 - I may be wrong, but I am pretty sure that most aftermarket parts aren't legal.

You are, completely wrong. All 3rd party stuff is legal, as long as both players agree to it.

"All" might be a little strong there.

Third party maneuver templates, range rulers, tokens, etc. are all legal.

Custom pilot cards, upgrade cards, damage decks, dice, base chits, miniatures, etc. are not.

But according to the OP, the local players decided not to show up. So it's not that the visitors took their spots or anything. They weren't forced out, they decided as a group to not attend. That is their own fault and no one elses.

You're still missing the point. It doesn't matter if there were reserved spots taken or not. What does matters is the reason that the local group was discouraged from attending. You can say that they were wrong to be discouraged, but what matters is the bottom line.

There is cool prizes in the casual tourny kits. Is it the same as in the competitive kits? No. But that's fine. It's like saying you want to bring a team to a pick up school yard basketball game, then get mad when they are not giving out the NBA trophy. What sense does that make?

****, I thought I did a good enough job at cutting off the straw man ahead of time.

Yeah, I get that you just learned what a straw man argument is and have to throw the term around now. Doesn't change the fact that that is exactly what you are complaining about.

And before the straw men come out: Obviously plaques that say 'world champion' on them shouldn't be sent out to every store.

Okay, so was it more of an issue that you didn't read my post?

Read it just fine, including the part you didn't bother to quote were you complained about the other prizes in the tourney kits not being in the casual kits. My point still stands.

Okay, I'll take a step back and hopefully make it more clear. Things that have no functional uses (like Rings and Plaques) are cool, and make perfect sense to restrict. Things that have functional uses that a printed with special championship text are cool and make perfect sense to restrict. It is when those functional things that don't have special wording on them are restricted that it can seem unfair to people.

Especially on things like the rulers and dice, which do wear out from normal use. I have seen locals playing with rulers that are falling apart and dice that are worn down. So yeah I understand that they get a little twinkle in their eye when they see their chance to replace them with a cool official product prize. I also understand that it can be crushing to watch a hardcore player come in from out of nowhere and ****** it out from under them.

I hope that helps clarify my point.

To everyone who has pointed out that it is the prizes I am focusing on here, you are correct, I don't think I tried to hide that. Interestingly enough the title of the thread is:

I feel like my point is very relevant to this discussion.

I'm all for the casual aspect of the game, but a tournament is there to test skills. If you get beaten by another player, outsider or not, he deserve to win the prize. If you want to win it yourself, practice more. But it's not the fault of the outsider if your local player group is not good enough to compete. Why would the local players be more entitled to the official prizes than someone else who is better? Should FFG start to create different league: Junior, AAA, Senior? I don't think so. If you want some official prizes, earn them...

...To be honest, deciding to not attend a tournament just because some guys from out of town will come in and take the prize seems a little immature to me. Take the challenge. Beat them and make them regret coming into your town. If you lose, learn from it. Stop pretending you're the best because no one in your casual community can beat you; prove it by beating those good enough to take the time, money and effort to travel from town to town to play. If I were the store owner and see that all my players would not attend an official tournament, I would stop making official one and just make local one. If they are not competitive enough to go to a local tournament because they're afraid of not winning, why should they care about getting a plaque or trophy they don't really deserve, Give them store credit prizes and be done with it.

This. A thousand times, this.

You both seem to be missing the point here. As blood thirsty pirates, I don't think you will ever understand what it is like to be a peace loving hippie.

You can repeat over and over again that they should just do the same thing that the snipers do and net deck and play ridiculously 'high stakes' matches with hyper competitive players. That doesn't appeal to some people. It never will.

For them it may not have to do with winning, it probably has to do with the environment. And if you think that a hyper competitive out of towner won't affect the environment, you are mistaken.

So yeah, when a small town group that has been having fun together, that doesn't really care who the biggest fish in the sea is, gets an influx of a large group of vicious hardcore players, they are going to feel negative about it.

I don't know how else to explain it to you. Not everyone is a blood thirsty pirate.

Then they should not host a official store championship then because if it is official with prize support from FFG it is open to the public

So yeah, when a small town group that has been having fun together, that doesn't really care who the biggest fish in the sea is, gets an influx of a large group of vicious hardcore players, they are going to feel negative about it.

If they don't care who's the biggest fish is the sea, why would they care when someone new shows up?

Also, as Klutz has pointed out several times now, you keep making the same error of assuming that being from out of town maps directly to "vicious hardcore player".

A lot of people are missing OP's point here, so I quoted the most relevant part. This isn't a discussion about whether or not it's kosher to attend more than one store championship, nor is it an attack on people that have done so. What's being described is a large group of competitive players flooding a small store championship and having the unintentional consequence of pushing away local players that keep the store alive.

Stop derailing the thread because you think OP called you a "prize sniper", or arguing about the merits of prizes and who prizes should go to. "Prizes" and "prize snipers" have become a red herring in this case and its derailing the thread.

First, how can "prize snipers" be a red herring in a thread with the title "'Prize snipers' affecting your local tournament?" Prize snipers, to the extent they exist, are literally the thread topic.

Second, I reject the idea that there are lots of people who (1) like X-wing enough to play on a regular basis and (2) play competitively with one another, but (3) refuse to play competitively with anyone else. That's incoherent.

I think what's going on in the anecdote the OP relayed is that there are unquestionably lots of casual players who aren't interested in showing up to competitive events. That's an important thing for store staff and TOs to know and plan for, but it's not a problem to be solved: some people are interested in competitive play and will show up for it, and some people aren't.

Alternately, like the person upthread who generalized from some out-of-town cheaters, it's possible that some small number of venues have had such negative experiences in the past that the regular competitive players aren't interested in dealing with anyone whose behavior they can't personally vouch for. I think that's unfair, short-sighted, and generally unfortunate--it certainly makes me less interested in traveling to that person's area--but again, it's not a problem with the game or a problem with players who like to travel.

I would be perfectly fine if the game stuff they gave out was available for league play, but it isn't. And before the straw men come out: Obviously plaques that say 'world champion' on them shouldn't be sent out to every store. Things like the cool dice, and templates (minus the 'championship' wording) aren't though.

You're literally describing a league play kit. The Spring 2015 season kit has acrylic range rulers, dice bags, and a bunch of cards with alternate art. And if you want acrylic templates or tokens without the tournament stuff splashed on them... do I need to start hunting up links?

So yeah, I totally understand people who like a nice laid back atmosphere wanting to win cool prizes for playing a game they love and have spent a bunch of money on. I also understand their frustration when the cooler prizes show up at the store they frequent are 'sniped' by people they have never seen at the store before.

Again, the problem in your thinking is that in order for it to track, there has to be some sense that the "cooler prizes" shouldn't go to the people who played the best, but instead should go to the players that really demonstrate their devotion.

And I get that because, hey, I didn't get any of the translucent dice I really, really wanted. But I didn't get them because I didn't win any of those tournaments, not because some bloodthirsty pirate stole them from me.

I personally don't really care to play in any type of organized event, because I am hyper competitive, and I would rather not stress out over a 10 dollar prize. If I really wanted to I would just buy the items I wanted off ebay. That doesn't mean I can't empathize with other people though.

Again, then.

Some people are not interested in competitive play. That's fine. FFG produces a kit for those people.

Some people are interested in competitive play. That's fine. FFG produces a kit for those people, too.

If someone were interested in the competitive play prizes but was worried he or she wouldn't be good enough, my answer is to stop worrying! X-wing players are typically nice people, and the playing field is more level than you think.

But if someone wants to earn the competitive play prizes without having to compete for them, I fail to see how that's a problem for anyone else to solve.

But according to the OP, the local players decided not to show up. So it's not that the visitors took their spots or anything. They weren't forced out, they decided as a group to not attend. That is their own fault and no one elses.

You're still missing the point. It doesn't matter if there were reserved spots taken or not. What does matters is the reason that the local group was discouraged from attending. You can say that they were wrong to be discouraged, but what matters is the bottom line.

I decided not to sign our soccer team up for the larger tournament in our area because I know we would get utterly dominated.

But they were giving away some really cool bags and water bottles to the top 8 teams, and cash prizes for the top 4...

Stupid tournament organizers shouldn't let teams from more than 1 hour away sign up.

Now, how am I going to run a narrative campaign where the winners get a plaque/medals and good memories of being utterly badass?

Have you had any charity events, in your area? We've had several Toys for Tots / American Cancer Society / etc tournaments at some of the local game stores, and they've been huge successes. There's a multistate event this Saturday, for instance (http://x-wing.org/)

Typically, there's a plaque or trophy for first, with a huge pile of prizes being raffled off to all the players (so the person clocking in at dead last has the same chance of winning, say, a CR-90 as the 1st place winner). Good times, all around.

To reiterate my point, like it or not, Organized Play has chosen to make some items (such as maneuver templates and transparent dice) more exclusive. They are awards for performing well at high-level events, and no players are entitled to a set of focus tokens because of their ZIP codes.

I don't think it is a zip code issue. If someone is always driving three hours every week for the league comes to the tournament as well, that isn't sniping. But you do bring up a good point about the phrasing we are have been using.

Instead of 'locals' maybe we should be talking about 'regulars'.

Here's how i'd do it.

4 a side, 125 points each.

Several missions over the course of a weekend. Missions can range from dogfight to random balanced missions.

Depending on the mission size, the desig team leader picks 1 or 2 players for the fight, or occasionally all for the epic games.

0 points loss, 1 point draw 2 point win per player involved maybe.

Winners get a team plaque or little medals of awesomeness.

Why am I mentioning this here rather than another thread?

Cause this is something that a gaming group can put together easily without getting into any whining about FFG official events, that's why.

A lot of people are missing OP's point here, so I quoted the most relevant part. This isn't a discussion about whether or not it's kosher to attend more than one store championship, nor is it an attack on people that have done so. What's being described is a large group of competitive players flooding a small store championship and having the unintentional consequence of pushing away local players that keep the store alive

If the FLGS is not having a boom day during a tournament event that draws more traffic into the store than it otherwise sees all week, there is something wrong with the store's business model. Increased patronage should never result in decreased sales.

1.) If a van full of elite players shows up to a small event and blows everyone away with their 1337 skills, maybe everyone in your area should stop being bad at the game.

2.) If a van full of elite players shows up to a small event and blows everyone away with their obnoxious meta autowin lists against everyone's 'fun' lists, that's more a fault of the people who designed the game and not the fault of the people playing what's best. I hate pre nerf phantoms and turretwing and the 15 actions a turn meta also, but you can't blame people for playing what's best. Maybe small town events should ban these OP things and stop running SC's if they don't want to deal with every person in the top 8 flying a dumb nuance-less turretwing build. Or better yet, you get all the locals to all fly the same one build that hard counters the competitive meta and troll the prize snipers.

3.) Most of the prizes suck anyways. Half of the alt art cards don't look as good as the regular art anyways. For example, Soontir Fel's alt art card. The light green acrylic focus tokens look bad, the rebel aces art on the SC plaque is terribad with its pink and white B Wing. There aren't many acrylic variants of the tokens or alt arts that are 'must haves' because of their coolness. The medal is cool, the acrylic proximity mines are cool, and that's it besides for a handful of promo cards like the black squadron alt art or the scimitar bomber alt art. So if you're complaining that everyone showed up and sniped the prizes from the locals, you aren't missing out on anything that's actually cool.

It looks like the bottom line here just comes down to a simple disagreement in approach:

• Some people think that loyalty and support of a store should earn them cool things. They have negative feelings when people they have never seen before come to the store with a hyper-competitive attitude and walk away with the cool things.
• Some people think that the only thing that should earn cool things is dominating other players.

I don't think that any amount of discussion is going to change people's stances on this.

Before I bow out though, I just want to clarify:

In my opinion, if you come to a tournament with a smile on your face and a sharing and helpful attitude, you aren't a prize sniper. If you come solely to walk away with the prizes, and do whatever it takes to do so, then you are a prize sniper.

For those of you adamantly defending the later, I don't really know what else to say to you. For those of you indicating you are the former, I am sure your presence is appreciated at any tournament you attend.

I think the problem -- inasmuch as it's even a problem -- exists entirely due to the naming conventions used. The fact that the most basic tier of competitive play is called "Store Championships" leads some folks to believe, perhaps absolutely fairly, that the purpose of the competition is to find out who the best pilot in the store is. Heck, it's certainly what I basically thought, when I went to my first one, earlier this year.

Thing is, it isn't.

The purpose is to be the first level of national, even global, competitive play. They start small, yes, but when the next step up is regionals -- a tournament sometimes covering entire states or nations! -- folks need to realize that Store Championship really isn't a Store Championship, it's a Sub-Regional Tournament. Call it a "District Championship" or something, maybe, to clarify that, and I'd wager a lot of these complaints would go away (or at least would greatly change in tone).

It's an official tournament. I show up to rock out and get my Byes, experience and add to my swimming pool of Soontir Fel cards. I went to 11 store champs this season and I spent money at all the stores.

Scoping out demographics before you head out is smart. I knowingly went to one event where I had a good hunch that the local meta was probably not well evolved. I got there, pretty much every one was running x wings and wave 1-2 stuff. I ended up crushing the event without losing a ship all day, but my opponents clearly still had a good time, I was still super nice to everyone, didn't ridicule anyone for thinking engine upgrade on a rookie X was a good idea.

And I won, and I met cool people and left better for it. 11 SCs excessive? Maybe. I don't do it because I want the prizes. I do want them! But I do it because official tournaments are where I put my skills to the rails and evolve as a player in a meaningful way. The health of the game everywhere is important to me, and that happens to mean that even a good player rolls into town, you gotta step it up. There are no auto wins. I have always been perfectly happy losing a more skilled opponent and I always hope for them the best as they move foward, no matter how much salt I have collected.

I don't get the same enjoyment out of "for fun" matches. In fact, I can usually play a funsies match maybe twice a month enjoyably, compared to my average 2-3 games a day nearly every night of the week, that I take more seriously. I enjoy spaceships and all but matching wits against opponents is what really compels me. As a result, I am drawn to competitive events that have some sort of stakes and everyone is doing their best going in.

"All" might be a little strong there.

Fair enough, but other then alt art cards, everything you can get from a tournament/game night kit you can buy somewhere else. That's mostly just the acrylic templates.

You can say that they were wrong to be discouraged, but what matters is the bottom line.

I have yet to see anyone show that the bottom line was harmed in any way.

If the people who normally play at a given store don't care for the higher level competition that the store championship brings, and don't show up to one. I fail to see how that's going to cause people to stop buying stuff from that store.

Now the owner should perhaps a better feel for his customers, and not of bought a Store Championship kit in the first place, since none of the people who play there are interested in such a thing. But none of that is the fault of the people who showed up there.

It is when those functional things that don't have special wording on them are restricted that it can seem unfair to people.

How in the world is this unfair? If you didn't win a 2015 store championship why should you get a ruler that says 2015 store champion on it?

If you can't beat whoever shows up for the tournament, regardless of where they come from then you didn't earn that item.

You can buy acrylic templates, rules and tokens that IMO look better then any FFG makes. You can buy dice for X-Wing as well. So the whole point about this is simply nonsense.

In my opinion, if you come to a tournament with a smile on your face and a sharing and helpful attitude, you aren't a prize sniper. If you come solely to walk away with the prizes, and do whatever it takes to do so, then you are a prize sniper.

Please explain how the two are mutually exclusive. Why can someone one not both be happy and helpful, but also willing to play their best to win some prizes. Frankly half the problem here is the short sighted nature of some people.

People who seem to insist that anyone who is willing to play the best list they can put together to the best of their ability is somehow doing something wrong and stealing prizes from those poor bumpkins who have no chance to compete with the big city slickers.

It looks like the bottom line here just comes down to a simple disagreement in approach:

• Some people think that loyalty and support of a store should earn them cool things. They have negative feelings when people they have never seen before come to the store with a hyper-competitive attitude and walk away with the cool things.
• Some people think that the only thing that should earn cool things is dominating other players.

I don't think that any amount of discussion is going to change people's stances on this.

Again, I disagree with the association between "people they have never seen before" and "hyper-competitive attitude".

What if in my area there's one hyper-competitive player who spends his whole time playing on VASSAL, never comes to the weekly casual game night but shows up to all the local tournaments and takes home prizes each time?

Everyone has seen him before, but he's still a jerk with a hyper-competitive attitude.

The problem is solely the hyper-competitive attitude. It has nothing to do with being from out of town, prize sniping, net lists, or anything else.

Heck, he doesn't even have to win any prizes and he'd still be a jerk that's not fun to play against.

Before I bow out though, I just want to clarify:

In my opinion, if you come to a tournament with a smile on your face and a sharing and helpful attitude, you aren't a prize sniper. If you come solely to walk away with the prizes, and do whatever it takes to do so, then you are a prize sniper.

For those of you adamantly defending the later, I don't really know what else to say to you. For those of you indicating you are the former, I am sure your presence is appreciated at any tournament you attend.

Imagine a group that shows up with a super fun, fly casual attitude, bakes cookies and buys beers for everyone, but they always play their best, with home-brew lists and... they take home the Top 4 prizes. At every tournament in a 4 hour drive radius.

Are they prize snipers?

I'm ok with people having a problem with hyper-competitive players that are not fun to play against.

I'm ok with people wishing FFG OP included acrylic dice in their seasonal/casual kits.

I'm not ok with people equating out of towners with prize snipers, a hyper-competitive attitude and other negative things.

I've really enjoyed the players that have driven 2+ hours to our local store championships - even the guy who took home the plaque!

Since they've started visiting, there's been more conversation between our local FB group and their local FB group. This is awesome!

And the Regionals are half way between our 2 cities! I can't wait!

It is when those functional things that don't have special wording on them are restricted that it can seem unfair to people.

How in the world is this unfair? If you didn't win a 2015 store championship why should you get a ruler that says 2015 store champion on it?

To be fair, that is in no way what he's saying. He's specifically referring to the "functional things that don't have special wording on them".

Basically, he's saying that the fact that acrylic dice, shield tokens, and certain alt-art cards are limited to the competitive tiers of tournament play can seem unfair.

In other words: Why aren't their acrylic dice in seasonal/casual tournament kits?

In other words: Why aren't their acrylic dice in seasonal/casual tournament kits?

Ok, that's a fair question.

I don't think it's that big of a deal, if they were part of the seasonal/casual kits they wouldn't be nearly as special as they are because a lot people would have them. It's also not like they're somehow really superior to the standard dice you can buy right now.