It makes sense in terms of the sophistication required to make them- plasma flasks are just containers of pressurised hydrogen, melta canisters are bottles of pyrum-petrol fluids, but bolt rounds are sophisticated little rockets. Much harder to construct.

All that said, my rule is the team's inquisitor will ensure they have a minimum of 1 full magazine of ammunition for whatever weapon (or, in the case of weapons with a capacity under 8, 2d5 shots) they use, for free, with any extra ammo costs being absorbed by the PC. I do this almost solely to make bolt weapons more attractive, and to provide a safety net for Scum.

Crimsonsphinx said:

Hate to say it but this is what I suspect. Either:

You don't give your players enough thrones throughout their adventures.

OR

Your group consists of boring powergamers with a military inclination.

I know from experience that getting a bolter and using it have been a defining moment of Dark Heresy gaming. It's one of those high-water marks that pretty much every player in my group have longed for at least once. They are simply way too cool to be ignored in favor of puny SP or Las small arms, so you don't really care that your pissing away a fortune just by firing it.

So the suggestion here is that you either make sure that the PC's get a hold of some more thrones than usual while at the same time send hideous and hostile creatures towards them that can shrug off Autogun fire like it was raindrops.

So let them survive the first encounter (preferably by burning fate points), make sure they have enough thrones, and if it doesn't dawn on them that perhaps they might should get somethin more powerful than puny SP and Las firearms with Manstoppers they are beyond all hope...

Crimsonsphinx said:

Think like a dealer. Give them their first clip free, Then make them pay once they are hooked.

I also think some of these weapons may seem a tad underpowered or have overpriced ammo. The Lasgun seem to be the weapon of choise, not just for Imperial Guardsmen but for PDFs, gangers that can afford/get them (although they seem to get SP weapons easier) etc. In Necromunda it seemed like Lasguns did better damage than SP weapons anyway (except heavy stubbers). Boltguns were better but cost wise evem typical gang leaders seem to be able to afford to use them, while the real tough gun that only the richest gangs had were plasma guns.

Now I clearly see the benefits that would make Guardsmen use lasguns despite being less dangerous, for nothing but logistical reasons with the reliability an added bonus, but in the game for Acolytes and others who doesen't have to fight in an extended campaign, ammo is hardly an issue except for bolt ammo (which strangely is almost more costly than the gun itself!). And the existence of Manstopper rounds means that Autoguns are simply better than Lasguns against all enemies.

Quick fix: a better damage for standard lasgun? d10+4 would make a difference, but that basically defeats the shotguns we all love. I'd rather add penetration instead, as these are meant to be fired against flak armor at the least, pen 2 or 3 maybe?

Just toying with ideas here, I'm not sure If I want to do such a change myself now, but If I had to redesign the system I'd buff the standard lasgun a bit and maybe increase the price or availability to compensate.

As I said, I heavily restrict man-stopper bullets and I indeed strengthen the value of Bolt Pistols and Bolters as iconic weapons with which you can easily intimidate most common people. Furthermore, Bolt Pistols are as easy to hide as are Autopistols and I intend to feed our Tech-Priest (the only one that recently got hold of a Bolt Pistol + 3 clips from Vorlin Orday) small amounts of ammo for free through certain channels (e.g. the AM).

Regarding the power and ubiquitous presence of SP-weapons: In my vision it is a certain (and restricted) feature of the Calixis sector with the prominence of Gunmetal City and its famous Fanes and Forges and its focus on SP-weapons. These are the major reason why SP-weapons are so prevalent. In Necromunda and its surrounding sector it might be a completely different situation, with a stronger focus and availability of Las-weapons and maybe Bolt weapons/ammo. The Imperium is a huge place with different cultures and influences and in the Calixis sector this culture (mainly due to Gunmetal City) is strongly SP-weapon influenced.

Regarding Las-weapons: My players regularly overcharge their ammo (actually the Tech-Priest does with an easy (+30) Tech-Use test), so that it gives +1 damage and half ammo (according to the rules IIRC) to them without any extra cost.

Varnias Tybalt said:

I have always started players with a reasonable sum of money and usually have them on 4th career at the start. With a noble it is entirely possible to have 3000 thrones at the start so money should not be an issue. Most non scum will have around 1000 thrones at the start. I encourage them to pool money resrouces also. They could easily afford a bolter if they so wished, but don't want to pay for the ammunition, and would rather save up for plasma or melta weapons.

That or power weapons, which also seem quite popular with rich players. So yes, I guess they could be power gamers.

Luthor Harkon said:

You don't recall correctly, if you overcharge a las pack it only has a single shot. So the extra cost here is losing the other 49-something shots. Otherwise interesting points.

Vanaheim pattern Assault Shotgun (Best Quality) with scatter, Executor (fanrule) as I read the Rogue Trader pre-created characters also Decapitator and occasionaly other shells, is my stormtrooper´s weapon of choice (once, I shot Slaught Infiltrator on full autor at point blank range to little, wormy BITS), but I have my stack and take weapons depending on the mission (other favourites were so-far masterly crafted twin-lasgun with hotshot packs and fire selector, holy chainsword, custom long-hellgun, very funny toxical flamthrower which name I forgot, and on party occasions also combi plasmagun/granade launcher).

For every occasion there is just trusted (and little bit custumised) hellpistol, mono combat knife and cutlass with boxer-hilt.

Friend of the Dork said:

I think that's hot shots, not overcharge packs (IIRC). Again IIRC, overcharge packs halve the clip size, bringing it down to a mere 30. Or is it the other way around?

My two cents: lasguns and bolt weapons are NOT the iconic weapons of the Imperium. They are the iconic weapons of the Imperial MILITARY. Dark Heresy is not a military game, unlike the tabletop.

bogi_khaosa said:

Is that the same way that Stormtroopers aren't iconic to the Star Wars universe because Luke Skywaker is a civilian?

Or perhaps phasers aren't iconic to Star Trek because the enterprise isn't a warship?

40k is built on icons and las weapons and bolt guns are pretty much as iconic as 40k gets...

My players seem to be leaning more to las guns, though im not using the inquistors hand book weapons yet. thouh what wepons a party use should be down to where they are and what they are doing, my oarty are on a war world so las guns are the best you'll get and as theres alot of guardsmen then las is the most ubundent so any one with an SP wepon is going to be more limited in resources

bogi_khaosa said:

Hmm guess I missed it since it's listed as an upgrade (I think the errata fixes this). That makes Lasweapons alot more useful. I don't know why my players are not using it, even by halving the clip size it's definetily worth it. +1 damage is not quite as good as +3 pen against armored targets, but then again +1 damage is more versatile and the cost is even the same, 15 thrones. Losing reliable is a ***** though - maybe a good quality Lasgun can retain it?

Luddite said:

In the sense that the M16 (or whatever military rifle is in current use) is not the iconic weapon of the United States. It's a weapon for WAR, not normally seen outside of the military. Lasguns are military weapons. So are bolt guns, plasma weapons and so forth. Why would they be common outside of a war zone?

One could as easily argue that Space Marines are iconic, and therefore DH should have lots of Space Marines.

BTW here's my Munchkin-Fu pimped out Lasgun

Good Quality Long Las with overcharge pack, extra grip, mono melee attachment, exterminator and red dot sight.

Range 150 (75 if used one-handed at no penalty), damage 1d10+4 (+1d10 per 2 degrees of success if aim), penetration 1. +30 to hit for aimed shots. At short range (up tp 75 meters) rolling BS means you hit for 3d10+4 damage and 1 penetration, which makes a typical Guardsman in Guard flak with 10 wounds take 4 critical damage on an average roll! You can also use this baby in one hand and also hold something else, stab in melee for 1d10+SB with pen 2, or torch something.

neat package?

bogi_khaosa said:

Due to the same reason why gun-nut's everywhere (not meant as a derogatory term, because I sort of pride myself in being one despite my home country's restrictive laws against firerams) along with most criminals will probably take every chance they can get to acquire a fully automatic assault rifle (be it M16's or AK47's) if they don't previously own one.

The whole automatic fire function along with the military image of these weapons are what usually appeal to any weapons enthusiast, regardless of how law abiding you are.

In fact, despite me never being able to get the proper credentials to own one (stupid, anti-gun, pansy ass sweden *grr*), I'd still buy an AK47 if a discreet seller tried to sell me one at an affordable price. It might lead to jailtime and heavy fines if im not careful, but what the hell it's a friggin AK47!

Most criminals do not try to get M-16s or AK-47s. They are armed with crappy Saturday Night Specials, switchblades, and baseball bats -- or, in DH terms, Poor Quality Compact Stub Autos, Poor Quality Knives, and Poor Quality Clubs.

The advantage of the lasgun is not in its OMG killing power. Its advantage is that it is perfect for equipping large numbers of soldiers on long campaigns -- reliable, decent range, lots of ammo, and easily recharged. That's why the military uses it instead of autorifles, and why it should logically be seen most often in a war zone.

bogi_khaosa said:

Most gangs, especially underfunded low rent criminal types in my games do have poor quality weapons like suggested here. This helps retain the gritty nature of my worlds, while also preventing the common reaction of some players to loot all enemies killed to sell their possessions. I frequently have higher end weapons biometrically, or otherwise linked to the owners to prevent over the top looting for selling purposes.

Not because I dont want them making money, but because its silly!

A pimped out lasgun is decent. Noone is arguing it isn't. My point was/is that my players take the simple route of working out cost/benefits and then just buying an autogun of some variety with manstoppers.

bogi_khaosa said:

They don't "try" because they know that it is way to hard to get a hold of. But I promise you, that if you walked up to a generic low to moderate ranking Crips or Bloods gangmember and said: "Hey, you know I got this cache of AK47:s that I need to get rid off, and im selling them real cheap. Know anyone who might be interested?" he would either get them from you himself, or he would know someone who'd want to get them from you. (that said, there is no guarantee that he or his "associates" would buy them off of you, but will perhaps steal them from you).

But the fact remains. Given the chance of getting a hold of military grade firepower will be tempting to pretty much everyone who is involved in the violent criminal world in some way.

And given the proliferation of small arms in WH40K, it wouldn't be unusual for gangers to lug around lasguns, autoguns and bolters if they have the thrones or other means to get a hold of them. And that's why most gangers in the game Necromunda are armed with this kind of weaponry.

bogi_khaosa said:

I haven't been in the US for a while but I recently read an article about a protest in Arizona against Obama and against more restrictive weapon laws. This is a picture from there (it's an M4 actually (the M16 carbine AFAIK)).

A gun modified so as not to fire full auto.

Crimsonsphinx said:

I actually don't see a problem with them doing this (although as I have said elsewhere, I think manstoppers, like dumdums, should have some drawback so that they are unusual rather than the norm). The basic weapons available to lower ranks are lasweapons (which are good for being reliable and having lots of ammo) and SP weapons (good for stopping power, but you have to reload a lot and worry about jams). Which one is better depends on whether you care more about reliability etc. or brute force, or if you think you're going to run out of ammo or not.

bogi_khaosa said:

Yup. But I don't think I have to tell you how common it is for such firearms to be modified illegally to fire full auto anyway. Pretty hard to regulate such modifications. It's no like the police do frequent gun inspections to see if you've tinkered with your guns in illegal ways...

bogi_khaosa said:

What criminals use really depends on where those criminals are and what they can get their hands on. Some, when the urge for violence strikes, can only get a kitchen knife while others have ak47's under their car seats. Around the parts I live, the criminals seem to have access to fully automatic weapons judging from the gunshots I occasionally hear.

When it comes to the iconic weapons of the Imperium, I think it's actually done right in DH. Going by the art it would seem tat bolters and las weapons are the weapons of imperial authority while, judging from the gunslinging dregs and criminal looking types in the art, sp weapons are the icon of the civilian and the criminal. While D characters are associated with the ultimate in imperial authority, they are also usually just citizens and, if not, they're pretending to be. As such, it makes sense for them to gravitate to sp weapons.

Graver said:

I agree with you 100%. Actually, in the games I run, a lasgun is a military weapon. If somebody pulls out a lasgun, everybody will assume he or she is military, off-duty or whatever, or somehow managed to get their hands on a military stockpile.

indeed if you describe an enemy as having a lasgun you think guard or PDF but autopistols and stub revolvers sound far more rebel or ciminal to me