"You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villany"

- Kenobi

I bought the rules to version 1 years ago. I couldn't get my group to play it. But, I enjoyed the rules I read in WHFRP. The magic system was much more interesting than AD&D's.

So, a decade later I was pleasently suprised when I saw the FFG announcement about a new version.

I was also thrilled to see the symbolic dice mechanic. Both Doom and Descent made me wonder if any RPG developers's would recognize the cleverness of such systems. I even toyed with the idea of writing my own RPG using symbolic dice. I skectched out several dice configurations, but never went anywhere with it.

So, what was the next move? Check out the WHFRP community.

...

Holy crap! I have never seen a larger bunch of whiney assholes! The presumptiousness and sense of entitlement is so thick here, that you have to wipe it away with toilet paper.

The gaming comunity is well known for its cry of Doom when a new edition is released.

You make me laugh. ROFL!

It does get pretty deep around here.

E

CRasterImage said:

Self-entitlement usually annoys me, but in this case many players have a reason to feel cheated. If you were a loyal customer of WFRP2, that means you could have easily spent $500 on your WFRP2 collection. But we still wanted books of maps, books about Elves and Dwarfs and Greenskins and Undead and books on Tilea and Estalia and lots of others.

When FFG picked up the game, those same loyal customers went into their pockets for another $70 or so for Shades of Empire and the Career Compendium. I don't think many of us realized that the Compendium was WFRP2's swan song, but some folks saw it for what it was. (I didn't.) The last bit of news I remember seeing about WFRP was an errata booklet for the Compendium.

FFG went silent on WFRP for a couple of months, and we started to wonder what was going on. The core rulebook was out of print and nearly impossible to find, and within a couple of weeks of our taking notice of that, FFG announced the first wave of WFRP2 books on PDF. Some people took that to mean that WFRP2 was going to be supported, but there were folks who saw that it was part of the shutting-down of WFRP2.

FFG just didn't tell us what their plans were, and so some of us made purchasing decisions that we might not have, had we been informed of what they certainly already knew.

I can understand why people are upset, and upset at FFG specifically. I think the big picture is more complicated than that, and that Games Workshop as the licensor may have been involved with those decisions, too. It's easier for me to believe that GW tied somebody's hands than it is to think that FFG would mislead its fans to the point where there's such deep-felt hurt over the new edition.

That's how I see it, anyway.

Books don't go out of date. You can still play 2E. Obviously FFG didn't want to publish just another typical fantasy role playing game, a market that is dominated by D&D, and saturated even more by the release of Pathfinder. I applaud their approach and their attempt to apply a new angle. If 3E was just an update to 2E, it would have been lost in the fog to D&D and PF for sure. At least now they have a better chance of gaining more notice.

ajtheronin said:

Especially when it is a new game with new mechanics. The old game is done "officially" as far as we can tell. Mourning the loss of a game we love is a natural thing. Yes I have enough to keep playing it, the loss of support then. I don't care for the "It's gonna suck" stuff. We can't know that yet. I could be a great game. But it is a new game a different game. It will have a new fan community, many coming from the old games, some new to the new one but again a different community.

What really has me upset is along the lines of what Dave said. But I take it a bit farther than "they did not let us in on their plans", they misled and lied to us, their customers.

When the PDF's came out ynnen said, "The Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay PDF initiative is just one step in the on-going progress being made for the game. Rest assured, more is on the way! Stay tuned..." The more on the way was the end for the game and the introduction of a new game with the same name. Not what I took from this when he posted it. I sort of expected more for the game I played. Sorry if I get upset about being misled

Then when word of WFRP3e leaked and speculation went wild they just did not say anything about the game, they created a bogus add campaign for a fictional game. They paid their artists, writers, and webdesigners to pull a joke on us, with money they get from us their customers. Sorry if I get mad about being lied to and made fun of.

CRasterImage said:

Thanks for the insults.

I'm not a "hater". I don't like the new orientation of WFRP. So, I'm a "whiney assholes" ?

If you want a mesurate opinion (yes, mine. It's mesurate, since I didn't insult anyone), please read :

"Hello,

Please forgive my bad english. As you can see, I don't post. But I read when I can. What I just saw on the site...disturbed me. I will no longer buy WFRP products, and I'm a little sad about it.

Not because I don't like evolutions, or because I don't want to spend money. Just because what I liked in WFRP is now, and perhaps for some years, out of question.

I saw people saying that the only difference is a new way to play, that the fluff is the same, etc.
My problem with that is, justement , on the fluff. From what I see in the announcement, the first books will only contains things that already exists. So, there is, at least for me, absolutely no interest to buy this new game, since what I wanted to find in the books and supplements was the interraction between Warhammer fluff and the game system, as well as new, undiscovered stories and details.

They were room for things like Lustria, Far-East, all the regions between the Old World and the Far-East, Arabia, etc. I'm a little sad. Don't tell me tings like "go read novels and WB books". It's not the same, since I don't especially search saga, heroes and such, but details and background for a universe I like. Don't tell me "nobody ask you to buy this game", or "play the 2nd edition if you want". I have the 2nd edition, but I won't have more of it, no new things to know on unexpected areas or historical background. And since I don't want to buy books for a new system which will use the same thing that existing books, I won't buy later books that will, perhaps, study new areas and background details. Just because I will have no interest in it, since I won't have the first rule books.

I find that it's a strange decision, but it's FFG's. I'm sorry for myself and for others, mais c'est comme ça . I just hope that FFG will, in future, make good games that will tease me, as Arkham Horror has done.

Sorry for this useless and full of mistakes post. But I wanted to say a word, too. Perhaps there will be interesting things in fandom creations. It would be good to have entire areas fanbook for the 2nd edition, as well as those who want to play the 3rd could have their books. "

And I will add that I was very enthousiastic with the FFG's continuation of the game. I send mail to Bibliothèque Interdite, the french publisher of WFRP, to ask them if they will continue to publish them. The response was positive, and I was very, very happy. And now, I will probably never see Les Milles Trônes , since it isn't published yet (because of the graphical differences between french and english versions)...

And I don't speak about Shades of the Empire...did this one was ever sold ?

And I ask for apologizes.

I agree with Kriegtanzer that said:

What really has me upset is along the lines of what Dave said. But I take it a bit farther than "they did not let us in on their plans", they misled and lied to us, their customers.

I dont think it is a question of whinin' or hating but let's face it, the fan base has been ignored compared to the development of WFRP 2nd Ed where many users where involved testing the game and giving feedback.

That said, it still remains for the comunity to see a thorough users reveiew or session report of how 3rd Ed actually works...

Armrek said:

I think too that some in-depth reviews would be really nice to have before buying the new edition. I'm looking forward to buy it but some look at it before it comes out could not hurt. And it would be a great way to dissolve the frustration many feel about the misguiding stuff that predated the announcement.

Exactly - FFG come out of the bush with your true intentions and some serious info in the game...

In response to the original poster:

I am not whiny. I am seriously brassed off.

Because I hate to be lied to by a company I thought I could trust and because I do not like to be treated like a child.

It is EXACTLY the same thing that happened with D&D. I did not mind the new edition, those who find it fun can go and play it (I personally found it extremely boring). I, however, hated being left in the dark, being lied to and being treated like an insolent child (or a complete moron, you decide).

I believed that FFG would never stoop to such depths, only to see how wrong I was.

Even in capitalism, the relationship between a sensible customer and the company they buy from is shaped by trust. You buy things from a brand, for example, because you trust in the things to be good and worth their price.

However, when you are being blatantly lied to or left in the dark then that trust takes some serious dents.

In this case, though, FFG does not seem to care one bit. The signal that is being sent is akin to: " We do not need your support anymore, not when we have new games with shiny bits to attract all those ADD-infected, MMO-addicted kiddies."

People from FFG, I may be far from the truth here, but THIS is the signal you are sending!!!

And now the few statements being made are wishy-washy yada yada. Nothing concrete. Nothing at all. The gamers must be kept in the dark, else they might make some suggestions or come up with better ideas than the designers (I have seen it happen). WE ARE NOT DUMB KIDS! We CAN be talked to!

After telling us a whopper, how about trying to do something about the trust issue and actually talk to us? Tell us something concrete?

After all, you are set on doing this, so what damage might it cause?

I really don't mind the new edition. I really don't. But I mind when I am told I do not matter anymore. Sorry, FFG, but I am not that gullible and until you change your policy back to something based on trust again, you can go and .....(insert appropriate insult here) yourself.

- An angry member of a dying breed.

I'm a little surprised at how many people have got themselves all worked up by this announcement and wonder exactly how radically differant this 3rd WFRP edition will be. The idea of card player handouts in a roleplaying game is certainly nothing new (though unique dice is a differant matter for sure). If WFRP 2 is no longer going to be supported then it's not as if the game lacks for supplementary material. There's also more than enough information available official and unofficial information available to run a campaign pretty much anywhere in the warhammer world as far as I can see. I have a whole load of barely used material on my bookshelf as it is.

Having said that, it's highly unlikely I'll be buying 3rd edition, for the same reason I won't be getting 4th edition D&D: the price is too much for an altered version of a game I already own.

HeirofNagash said:

Whoever said you don't matter anymore?

Those who deemed it necessary to lie to us, thereby telling us that it will not be important if we trust them (which is directly tied in to whether we might choose to buy products from them), thereby collectively giving us the finger.

HeirofNagash said:

I'm not sure that's not being a wee bit overdramatic to be honest. I think that they feel they are giving players a new and exciting way to experience a roleplaying game. FFG are always quite secretive about new products it seems to me and this new edition of WFRP is no exception. Again though, I can say for certain that this new direction does not appeal to me personally. I would rather they kept the amount of play components down to a minimum as I like games that I can play without requiring a table, and I'm quite happy with 2nd edition thanks very much. I hardly feel hard done by though, because I have all the 2nd edition stuff I'll ever need.

CRasterImage said:

Given that we are all "whiney assholes" I take it you will not be joining our WFRP community. Oh well not gaining someone who insults every other fan of WFRP regardless of their individual opinions in his first post is hardly a loss to the community.

jasonmichael said:

Absolutly true, everyone of You who don't like the idea of WFRP 3 can still play Wfrp 2. Give us all, who like the idea of wfrp 3 a breake.

FFG YOUR DOING A GREAT JOB! JAY LITTLE YOUR A GREAT DESIGNER SO KEEP UP THIS GOOD WORK. YOUR WFRP 3ED WILL BE GREAT. I HOPE I WILL SEE IT THIS CHRISTMAS!

vandimar77 said:

I feel you misunderstood me there. I absolutely do not mind the new edition. I really don't, especially if it gives people something they can have a good time with. I also definitely will take a look at it. All i am angry about is the delivery of this whole thing, that's it.

ffgfan said:

Take a breath and reread this thread. Then you see that people here are not saying 3e sucks but that the anger (on this this thread) is mostly directed at FFG and the way they have handled the situation.

Foolishboy said:

I think the word you are looking for is TROLL

I don't see how FFG could have kept everybody happy here.

SoE was already in the works at BI, if I recall, so it was logical to get it out.

Career compendium maybe had some writing done already also, who knows ? With corresponding expenses pending.

So in order not to lose money, they had to publish CC also.

Now when they started planning v3, they could have disclosed the project, but then they would have been swamped with fanmail wanting more info.

And FFG isn't a very large company. So if you want your head clear, you better not disclose at all. Unless you have some money to hire somebody to take care of the fans.

Personally, I would have liked a preview, a designer interview, something ! Just so we'd know something is in the works when no new products were announced for v2 for so long. But that's disclosing.

Also, as a company, I guess FFG wanted to make sure the new approach to RPG rules (ie the dice) would be novelty and unique at GenCon. So better keep your mouth shut until then. Now that GenCon is past and that the disclosure is done, we may expect more info from FFG.

This said, FFG are not too intense on web based marketing, I think. They have all these mini-sites that are really just store windows, and the blog and news that do provide some info, but spread these over so many games, that doesn't make the flow for any one game very intense. Lastly, they rarely come on the forums at all.

I say that is good management. Posting and responding to customers up close can be a real time waster. The FFG website knows what it is first and foremost, a store. It's not there to cater for a "community". I respect that. The community has to cater for itself and the WFRP community is a vibrant one.

I don't understand why people get angry against FFG because in the end, I think they took sound business decisions and if they wrote a great game, that's what we expect of a games company. That's the most important aspect. And we cannot discuss yet, because we know nothing of the true nature of WFRP v3.