the defender has recieved a fair amount of ire (or praise, depending on your point of view) so i figured i'd jump in and see what all the fuss was about.

i ran

rexler brath, veteran instinct. flechette cannon

royal guard pilot, ptl, title, stealth device, autothruster x2

i got two wins, though one would have gone past time.

the first list i fought whisper, soontir and 2 academies. the flechette cannon is largely worthless against soontir, as he'll likely be stressed just about every turn anyway. however, having the drop on whisper was good. my opponent knew the weakness, and sacrificed some attack to stay cloaked on turns he knew i would be able to fire the cannon. there were a lot of times that i really wished i had taken predator, but after a month of scum flying, being able to pump a high pilot skill ship was good fun. rexler went on to beagt soontir at the end, in a 1 on 1 showdown.

the second match was against double aggressors, and a relatively new player. he forgot to use a lot of his abilities, including never using iggy B's gunner effect. had he, it may have been a very different game. rexler went down fast, but he bought the interceptors time to circle around the aggressors, and they cozied up for 2 good kills.

overall, i like what the defender brings to the table, but i think it has too many flaws and easy counters to ever be a premier ship.

I believe the Delta Defender is overpriced by 5 points. I think the Starviper proves this. The max point value of ANY small base (currently in the game) should be 25. If you can't run four of them, it's over priced. If the Rebels can run 4 B-wings with upgrades (or with a 5th ship!!) then the Empire should be able to run 4 Defenders.

I believe the Delta Defender is overpriced by 5 points. I think the Starviper proves this. The max point value of ANY small base (currently in the game) should be 25. If you can't run four of them, it's over priced. If the Rebels can run 4 B-wings with upgrades (or with a 5th ship!!) then theEmpire should be able to run 4 Defenders.

uh what

You've effectively just said nothing can be better than the StarViper.

I believe the Delta Defender is overpriced by 5 points. I think the Starviper proves this. The max point value of ANY small base (currently in the game) should be 25. If you can't run four of them, it's over priced. If the Rebels can run 4 B-wings with upgrades (or with a 5th ship!!) then theEmpire should be able to run 4 Defenders.

uh what

You've effectively just said nothing can be better than the StarViper.

I think he just meant that the Defender should have been designed to be more in line with the Star Viper's cost and combat profile. The Star Viper is certainly not the 'best' ship in the game, but it certainly is at a nicer price point relative to the defender and easier to incorporate into lists...

As a primarily Empire player, I love the Defender. It provides the Imperial side something that no other ship in the Imperial fleet can provide, a somewhat tanky small-base ship with 3 Attack dice. The only ship that really compares is the Firespray.

It has 3 Hull, 3 Shields, and 3 Agility. That is about the most durable ship the Empire has aside from the Firespray and Decimator. One can argue that on a point for point basis, the Defender is more durable than a Decimator due to the Decimator being a flying brick with 0 Agility. Most Imperial ships just die in droves because of a lack of shields and low Hull values.

I have run the following squad with fairly good success:

Bounty Hunter with Gunner and Seismic Charge

PS1 Defender x2

It hits pretty hard and can take some shots without withering under fire. It eats low-agility ships for lunch with 9 Attack dice.

problem with the defender/viper comparison (other than juggler still finding the generic viper overpriced) is that the Defender is strictly superior at it's base cost (one more total health, far better distribution)

if they were both 25, there'd be some problems

I think if they had made it 4 red dice then no one would complain about it and we would see a lot more use.

I think if they had made it 4 red dice then no one would complain about it and we would see a lot more use.

If it had 4 Attack at the same price point, it would be the best ship in the game. Hands down.

problem with the defender/viper comparison (other than juggler still finding the generic viper overpriced) is that the Defender is strictly superior at it's base cost (one more total health, far better distribution)

if they were both 25, there'd be some problems

I don't agree with you here. The Defender's dial SUCKS! There is no surprise when it moves. Because of this, they are very easy to avoid (even low PS ships). I love the Defender, but 100 points of Defenders (3 and upgrades) is going to have problems against 4 Starvipers.

Next I'll get the apples and oranges argument. And it is to an extent. But both of these ships fill the same roll for their faction. They are the B-wing counterparts. NEITHER of these ships are as "automatic" or as price effective as the B-wing. But the Defender and the Starviper share a lot in common with the B-wing.

Let's compare the base models:

The Defender has two less shields than the B-wing, but does have an evade rating 2 points higher. (not sure that is a fair trade) They both have a cannon slot and very similar dials. The Defender has a white K turn, no System slot, and cost 8 more points!!!

The Starviper has 1 more hull than the B-wing, and 4 less shields. It has an evade rating two points higher than the B-wing and a FAR better dial. This might actually be a close to even trade off. The Starviper does not have a cannon or system slot and costs 3 more points than the B-wing. Unlike the Defender, you can run 4 of these.

As tournament results have shown, The B-wing is the superior ship and one can easily build a list with 1 to 4 of them. The numbers are not in on the Starviper yet, but I'm a big fan and am having great success with a squad that runs two base units. The Defender is left sitting on the sidelines. I love the ship and have brought it to organized games and friendly games alike. They eat up a 3rd or more of your list points and don't deliver the way a Firespray does for the same cost. I hold out hope that this atrocity is fixed by FFG. The Defender is a mighty force for the Empire and should be so in the game of X-wing as well.

I find that the white 4 K-turn makes up for a lot of the other dial shortcomings. No other ship in the game can pull a K-turn to get behind a ship then Target Lock them multiple turns in a row. If it can survive the initial joust, it has a massive advantage.

The Defender is fast, but not nimble. Drives like a bomber aside from the 4 K-turn.

First of all, the predictability of the white 4k is completely negated by a.) the 4k itself (oh no, you know I'm going to be behind you!...what're you going to do about it?) b.) the cannon slot (Flechette and ion). Flying PS 1 defenders through the gaps between obstacles are a great way to mitigate the limitations of the dial, because the opponent won't really be able to react to it anyway

Imo the defender's dial is fine apart from the red 2-hard (which strikes me as excessive)

there are a couple massively important things that aren't immediately obvious about the white 4k

1.) You can chain 4ks every turn. This is the only ship that can do it on its own.

2.) You can 4k even when stressed, which sharply cuts down on the horrible distribution of green maneuvers

3.) You can roll after your 4k (so fun ) or just focus for strict action superiority during a joust, if you're boring

I find that the white 4 K-turn makes up for a lot of the other dial shortcomings. No other ship in the game can pull a K-turn to get behind a ship then Target Lock them multiple turns in a row. If it can survive the initial joust, it has a massive advantage.

The Defender is fast, but not nimble. Drives like a bomber aside from the 4 K-turn.

Because of the dial, the white K is a telegraphed move. A good opponent will block you or get the heck out of dodge and give you no shot or a bad R3 shot.

Now, had the Defender's dial a little more green on it, PTL could have fixed this. (Boosting after a White K is just sick!) I understand why FFG gave the Defender the dial it did. The Empire already has an Interceptor. It doesn't need a "better and more expensive" one. In their attempt to not step on the Interceptor's toes, they caused the Defender to be overpriced, predictable, and often ineffective.

cool thing about the white 4k on the PS 1 Defender is that if you block the opponent or you let yourself get blocked, you can just white 4k again the next turn

I like flying the defender in a role that I think makes a lot of people uncomfortable. I run Rexler with predator and HLC for a 47 point work horse. His goal every game is to cripple and smash as much as possible before dying, and then to let his wingman clean up easily. I play him as a big gun that I expect people to focus down, and just work to squeeze as much punishment out of him as possible while he burns.

My favorite pairing for him is with a Firespray kitted out very similarly, as if they focus the tankier Firespray, he will wipe them out, if they focus him, he'll do enough damage for the Firespray to clean up, and if they shoot both at once, they usually kill neither before twin HLC fire murders them.

A lot of people have issue with putting 47 points into a ship and expecting it to die each game, but I don't, as long as I'm flying him well and playing into the fact that they have to focus him or be punished.

As an Imperial player, I expect all of my ships to die doing their duty.

I find that the white 4 K-turn makes up for a lot of the other dial shortcomings. No other ship in the game can pull a K-turn to get behind a ship then Target Lock them multiple turns in a row. If it can survive the initial joust, it has a massive advantage.

The Defender is fast, but not nimble. Drives like a bomber aside from the 4 K-turn.

Because of the dial, the white K is a telegraphed move. A good opponent will block you or get the heck out of dodge and give you no shot or a bad R3 shot.

Now, had the Defender's dial a little more green on it, PTL could have fixed this. (Boosting after a White K is just sick!) I understand why FFG gave the Defender the dial it did. The Empire already has an Interceptor. It doesn't need a "better and more expensive" one. In their attempt to not step on the Interceptor's toes, they caused the Defender to be overpriced, predictable, and often ineffective.

I usually don't run the high PS Defenders (or any other ship for that matter) so I don't have the issue of being blocked. Most of the time my opponent complains that I am going to pull a K-turn and there is nothing they can do about it. A vast majority of the time you can keep a ship in your arc with actions almost all game.

Also, if a ship (without a turret) is showing you their engines to get out of dodge, you won that exchange because a range 3 shot with no return fire is better than what the other guy is getting. Good luck outrunning a Defender. 5-Straight with a Barrel Roll is tough to outrun.

If it just had green anywhere but straight!

If it just had green anywhere but straight!

EXACTLY!

Its one banks really should be green. I might even forgive the ridiculous 2 red turn if this was true!

Heck... there's an idea for a fix. Free title: All 1 maneuvers are green.

free title nothing

FFG should just send us green sharpies

If it just had green anywhere but straight!

EXACTLY!

Its one banks really should be green. I might even forgive the ridiculous 2 red turn if this was true!

Heck... there's an idea for a fix. Free title: All 1 maneuvers are green.

Oh jeepers, you really do not want a green 1 hard on that ship, that would be insane.

If it just had green anywhere but straight!

The straight greens actually don't bother me. If the one banks were green that would be mostly useful at close range where I never, ever want my Defender to be anyway unless I'm close behind.

Usually if I get stress on it, I'm pretty far away anyway and a 2 straight will still keep me in arc. If I'm close, I'll 4k behind and clear next round or 5 straight and get out of there.

I've been utilizing the hard 1's & 2's more lately too. The dial has really started to grow on me.

If there was one title/fix that I would LOVE to have though, it would be cheaper cannons. I would take that over anything else.

overall, i like what the defender brings to the table, but i think it has too many flaws and easy counters to ever be a premier ship.

This is interesting, because in a lot of ways I consider the Defender a straight B student. It's very well rounded without much in the way of hard counters in my experience. It can go fast, sort of go slow, it packs a punch, and is reasonably tough, with a touch of arc dodging ability thanks to Barrel Roll. The main flaw, I guess, would be that you're paying a premium for the flexibility.

problem with the defender/viper comparison (other than juggler still finding the generic viper overpriced) is that the Defender is strictly superior at it's base cost (one more total health, far better distribution)

if they were both 25, there'd be some problems

I don't agree with you here. The Defender's dial SUCKS! There is no surprise when it moves. Because of this, they are very easy to avoid (even low PS ships). I love the Defender, but 100 points of Defenders (3 and upgrades) is going to have problems against 4 Starvipers.

Next I'll get the apples and oranges argument. And it is to an extent. But both of these ships fill the same roll for their faction. They are the B-wing counterparts. NEITHER of these ships are as "automatic" or as price effective as the B-wing. But the Defender and the Starviper share a lot in common with the B-wing.

Let's compare the base models:

The Defender has two less shields than the B-wing, but does have an evade rating 2 points higher. (not sure that is a fair trade) They both have a cannon slot and very similar dials. The Defender has a white K turn, no System slot, and cost 8 more points!!!

The Starviper has 1 more hull than the B-wing, and 4 less shields. It has an evade rating two points higher than the B-wing and a FAR better dial. This might actually be a close to even trade off. The Starviper does not have a cannon or system slot and costs 3 more points than the B-wing. Unlike the Defender, you can run 4 of these.

As tournament results have shown, The B-wing is the superior ship and one can easily build a list with 1 to 4 of them. The numbers are not in on the Starviper yet, but I'm a big fan and am having great success with a squad that runs two base units. The Defender is left sitting on the sidelines. I love the ship and have brought it to organized games and friendly games alike. They eat up a 3rd or more of your list points and don't deliver the way a Firespray does for the same cost. I hold out hope that this atrocity is fixed by FFG. The Defender is a mighty force for the Empire and should be so in the game of X-wing as well.

The Defender has a completely different dial and defensive profile than the B-wing. The B-wing wallows and takes hits (pretty well for the cost). The Defender moves, making it harder to pin down and bring into short range. Fly equivalent points of B-wings vs swarms like Z-95s or TIE fighters and you'll see that B's are far more susceptible to that attack profile than Defenders. I won't say the Defender is better for the points, but a straight stat comparison is very misleading.

I find that the white 4 K-turn makes up for a lot of the other dial shortcomings. No other ship in the game can pull a K-turn to get behind a ship then Target Lock them multiple turns in a row. If it can survive the initial joust, it has a massive advantage.

The Defender is fast, but not nimble. Drives like a bomber aside from the 4 K-turn.

Because of the dial, the white K is a telegraphed move. A good opponent will block you or get the heck out of dodge and give you no shot or a bad R3 shot.

Now, had the Defender's dial a little more green on it, PTL could have fixed this. (Boosting after a White K is just sick!) I understand why FFG gave the Defender the dial it did. The Empire already has an Interceptor. It doesn't need a "better and more expensive" one. In their attempt to not step on the Interceptor's toes, they caused the Defender to be overpriced, predictable, and often ineffective.

Just because they know the 4k is coming doesn't make it a bad move. Blocking is not always an option, and when it is, the presence of the K-turn can eat a blocker that might have turned guns on you when you picked a different maneuver. I always play with cannons on my Defenders, and I'm usually outnumbered, so any range 3 exchange is almost always better for me than for my opponent. The Barrel Roll can also be used to adjust position afterwards which makes it even harder to dodge or get into arc, even if you're pretty sure it's coming.

I think its cute when people talk about how predictable the defender is in movement. Its as if tactics or squad synergy do not exist.

Capt Yorr

Vessery PS

Fleet Officer

Wingman

There are others....

Yorr himself makes the Defender have the best dial in the game! Throw a Fleet officer on there,use Vessery w/EU and you have not only a fabulous combo that begs one to shoot at the shuttle (letting Vessery do work) but you still have points for another distraction ship/ blocker.

Vessery

-outmaneuver

-HLC

-EU

Omnicron Group

-ST321

-Fleet Officer

-Tactician

-Fire Control System

Alpha Squadron Pilot

-Autothrusters

=100pts

Does the dial suck here? Not hardly. Vessery can stress himself as much as he likes and still get TL/Focus shots with HLC all day long. If you play it at range 3 like Defenders are supposed to...the other two ships make more tempting targets...especially the shuttle who will take some effort to burn down.

Stress yourself...disengage with a straight 5 and boost...next turn reengage with a k then boost.

Defender is obviously not the best ship out there...it needs support. SHUTTLE! Thats what the shuttle is there for. By itself Defender has a 'sort of' predictable dial...but there are other ships, and synergy exists in this game.

Please stop saying that since you know where the Defender will be that you auto win vs it...(thats what i hear when people comment on how the dial ruins the ship)

Thats dumb.

Did the other thread run out of pages or something?

Did the other thread run out of pages or something?

QUIET!

We are talking about Defender-Wing!