Price Point, and why it's not crazy.

By Atendarius, in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay

Posted at

The reason why the game box contains 4 (!) books, a sheadload of cards, dice and templates is that FFG wants to make it seem that you get a lot of stuff in it, and that the high price tag is really kinda worth it. Whereas if it was just one book, how would they justify a 100 dollars price tag? No way.

The fact is that all the stuff that comes with the box is cheap as mud to manufacture, so they make a huge profit compared to the old book RPGs. Don't be fooled by the shiny things. Just say no.

As to the four books, why make 4 of them when you could have made just one? Exactly, it's because they want to fool you again: see you don't get 1 book, you get FOUR!!!

It's like those TV shop networks, lot of noise and extras but the actual product is crap.

Posted at

Ron B. Stard said:

The reason why the game box contains 4 (!) books, a sheadload of cards, dice and templates is that FFG wants to make it seem that you get a lot of stuff in it, and that the high price tag is really kinda worth it. Whereas if it was just one book, how would they justify a 100 dollars price tag? No way.

The fact is that all the stuff that comes with the box is cheap as mud to manufacture, so they make a huge profit compared to the old book RPGs. Don't be fooled by the shiny things. Just say no.

As to the four books, why make 4 of them when you could have made just one? Exactly, it's because they want to fool you again: see you don't get 1 book, you get FOUR!!!

It's like those TV shop networks, lot of noise and extras but the actual product is crap.

Nice conspiricy theory...

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Ron B. Stard said:

As to the four books, why make 4 of them when you could have made just one? Exactly, it's because they want to fool you again: see you don't get 1 book, you get FOUR!!!

Exactly - we have no information in regard to page count or if they will be hardback for sure. These details are important and until I know for sure what the box contains it remains to expensive.

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MILLANDSON said:

Ron B. Stard said:

The reason why the game box contains 4 (!) books, a sheadload of cards, dice and templates is that FFG wants to make it seem that you get a lot of stuff in it, and that the high price tag is really kinda worth it. Whereas if it was just one book, how would they justify a 100 dollars price tag? No way.

The fact is that all the stuff that comes with the box is cheap as mud to manufacture, so they make a huge profit compared to the old book RPGs. Don't be fooled by the shiny things. Just say no.

As to the four books, why make 4 of them when you could have made just one? Exactly, it's because they want to fool you again: see you don't get 1 book, you get FOUR!!!

It's like those TV shop networks, lot of noise and extras but the actual product is crap.

Nice conspiricy theory...

It's no theory or conspiracy, it's how FFG rolls. A business or product model, or whatever it's called in English. Just take a look at their product portfolio. Why are you constantly defending this game and FFG, a sockpuppet perhaps? ;)

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42! said:

TredHed said:

But the problem with this argument (Price point not being crazy) is that you only NEED 3 books for D&D.

Sure you can run a game with only the 3 books but you don't get an actual setting to play in and will have to make almost everything up yourself - if you want to play in a specific world you'll need at least one book more to do that (and sometimes more).

So for the typical DM DnD 4e is a 4 book game.

42!

Ok, I do stand corrected on this point.....a setting book for an official setting might be needed.

But my main point still stands...$100 for 1 GM and 3 players.....spend the same amount on D&D and you can run the game for an INFINITE amount of players.
Yes...you get a ton of extras, but they are forced instead of an option. I dont HAVE to buy power cards, and I wont, but if I want to run WFRP3e I get them anyways.
To me, it should have been a book or 4 that could host any amount of players I wanna have......

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Ron B. Stard said:

It's no theory or conspiracy, it's how FFG rolls. A business or product model, or whatever it's called in English. Just take a look at their product portfolio. Why are you constantly defending this game and FFG, a sockpuppet perhaps? ;)

Oh yes, you got me, I work for FFG..... jeez, paranoid much? I'm just saying you are making huge leaps in logic, as are most people, because we know nothing about the game yet. How do you know they won't have 4 200 page hardback books in the box?

Exactly, you don't. So until such time as one of us is proven correct by FFG, what you said is still a theory.

Me, I just prefer to be an optimist. If thinking FFG is out to get you by stealing your money is what you want to do, fine by me.

Posted at

42! said:

Sure you can run a game with only the 3 books but you don't get an actual setting to play in and will have to make almost everything up yourself - if you want to play in a specific world you'll need at least one book more to do that (and sometimes more).

So for the typical DM DnD 4e is a 4 book game.

Ony if you suck.

When I was 10 years old, 10 for crying out loud, we did just fine with the DMs Guide, Player's Handbook and Monster Manual for 1E AD&D. At that age (course out GM was a freaky genius who eventually skipped a few grades, **** prodigy kids) we created a vibrant D&D world of our own, one we still use when we get together and play a game.

I guarantee if I went out and bought a generic RPG such as OSRIC or Labyrinth Lord or Hackmaster or even the 3 core books for D&D 4E (though better chance of me buying 3E or Pathfinder) In could spend a single saturday and create enough basic world stuff to run an entire campaign for a good while.

Without having to spend an extra $40 so an extra playe can have a box, some cards and some dice so he too can play.

Jesus, I miss the 80s. Mainly the hiar girls wore, but also the music, acid washed jeans and real RPGs.

Posted at

Either way, for here in the UK the last thing I want to see for any RPG is a box set from any manufacturer. FFG will set their price point for their game and sell it at that - however as a retail purchaser I will end up paying more for a box set than if the same bits were sold separately for the relevant fraction. Why I hear you cry, well simple - in the UK books attract a 0% rate of VAT, boxed games affect full rate VAT. So when FFG sell it as a box into the UK supply chain that box set inflates per pair of hands handling it by the VAT rate - and the price for me ends up significantly higher (15% higher at the moment) for a box than for the separate books going through the same hands- even if the box plus a few extras like dice and so on get included as freebies.

One of the advantages for RPGs has been that individual book format keep the price down over purchases of a what can be a LOT of material.

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At this time I could buy the 3 core 4E D&D books for $69.15 at books a million, wait 7-10 days for free shipping (all the while making my own setting).

Or I could go to Chaosium and buy BRP for $39.95 and have a full game.

$100 is outrageous.

I remember buying MERP in a box set for only $18. Marvel Superheroes for $25, same for D.C. Heroes.

Production values really have nothing to do with it, since most of my FFG Dark Heresy books look like they were bound by Gary Busey on a crack binge and Im not paying for the art, but the rules.

Rules that appear to be rules I am not interested in.

Oh hell, Im just not buying it.

You can all you want!

Posted at

MILLANDSON said:

Ron B. Stard said:

It's no theory or conspiracy, it's how FFG rolls. A business or product model, or whatever it's called in English. Just take a look at their product portfolio. Why are you constantly defending this game and FFG, a sockpuppet perhaps? ;)

Oh yes, you got me, I work for FFG..... jeez, paranoid much? I'm just saying you are making huge leaps in logic, as are most people, because we know nothing about the game yet. How do you know they won't have 4 200 page hardback books in the box?

Exactly, you don't. So until such time as one of us is proven correct by FFG, what you said is still a theory.

Me, I just prefer to be an optimist. If thinking FFG is out to get you by stealing your money is what you want to do, fine by me.

Ok, I am glad we got that sorted: I am paranoid and you're not a sock puppet. But I still say that FFG has taken the big box board game approach with this game. Talking about the 4 rulebooks. What page count are you personally expecting? I mean, let's be optimistic and say that the page count on these four books equals the word count on WFRP v.2 rulebook, alright? You think the extra cards, dice and other crap are worth the 40 to 50 dollars on the price tag? Knowing your stance, you probably do. But I consider it more than likely that the page count will be significantly lower, and if that is the case, the price becomes even more atrocious.

In my opinion most of FFG boxed games look nice and have loads of stuff in them, but when you really think about it, it's all pretty inexpensively produced 'crap' sold at premium prices. This makes them much more profitable, and this is why FFG keeps churning them. Take a look at he Arkham Horror and it's countless expansions. I think they have to be pretty **** popular and profitable, because they keep releasing them? I like the game and all, but personally I wouldn't buy it (we played a friend's game), let alone the expansions. For one thing, all the maps and counters take far too much space, and for another thing, once you get less ovewhelmed by the amount of counters nice graphics, you realise (well, I did=)) that it's merely just an ok game.

In game sets like these, it's all about how the buyer perceives the value he gets from it. In these materialistic times colourful graphics and masses of cards and tokens appeal to the mass consumer. It seems so much more than a single book, so you must be getting more value for the money, right?

Posted at

Peacekeeper_b said:

42! said:

Sure you can run a game with only the 3 books but you don't get an actual setting to play in and will have to make almost everything up yourself - if you want to play in a specific world you'll need at least one book more to do that (and sometimes more).

So for the typical DM DnD 4e is a 4 book game.

Ony if you suck.

When I was 10 years old, 10 for crying out loud, we did just fine with the DMs Guide, Player's Handbook and Monster Manual for 1E AD&D. At that age (course out GM was a freaky genius who eventually skipped a few grades, **** prodigy kids) we created a vibrant D&D world of our own, one we still use when we get together and play a game.

I guarantee if I went out and bought a generic RPG such as OSRIC or Labyrinth Lord or Hackmaster or even the 3 core books for D&D 4E (though better chance of me buying 3E or Pathfinder) In could spend a single saturday and create enough basic world stuff to run an entire campaign for a good while.

Without having to spend an extra $40 so an extra playe can have a box, some cards and some dice so he too can play.

Jesus, I miss the 80s. Mainly the hiar girls wore, but also the music, acid washed jeans and real RPGs.

I think you completely missed my point...

When you buy the new boxed set you get all you need to play in the Warhammer fantasy setting just buying the 3 DnD 4e books gives you a game to play but no setting and if you want to get a setting you'll need a 4th book - so (without knowing whats actually in the 3ed Warhammer fantasy rpg) in order to get the same package as the new WFRPG you'll need 4 DnD books which makes it at least equally if not more expensive to get into DnD.

42!
Who loves games like Adventure! and All Flesh Must Be Eaten because I can do with them what I want - but if I want to run something my group will recognize as Warhammer fantasy I'll need some published setting material.

Posted at

Ron B. Stard said:

Talking about the 4 rulebooks. What page count are you personally expecting?
Posted at

MILLANDSON said:

Oh yes, you got me, I work for FFG..... jeez, paranoid much? I'm just saying you are making huge leaps in logic, as are most people, because we know nothing about the game yet. How do you know they won't have 4 200 page hardback books in the box?

Exactly, you don't. So until such time as one of us is proven correct by FFG, what you said is still a theory.

Me, I just prefer to be an optimist. If thinking FFG is out to get you by stealing your money is what you want to do, fine by me.

I don't know that they won't, I know that the pamphlets I saw looked just like that, four pamphlet sized items. It could be too early to have them decide what it will be composed of, and those are only placeholders, but if they were the real deal, those aren't 200 page hardbound books, more like the size of the booklets that came in the D&D 4e starter set.

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jadrax said:

Ron B. Stard said:

Talking about the 4 rulebooks. What page count are you personally expecting?

James Knevitt reported over rpg.net that they were 96-128 page hardbacks.

Hmm...that's interesting...differs...hmm...as I said...interesting. WTH were those four booklets at the booth then?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_eqPrIE5E1OM/SoRCdCDvdeI/AAAAAAAAAGk/Txv1jSltDhY/s1600-h/downsized_0813091231a-748219.jpg

closer pic of the rulebooks, or what appear to be them

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_eqPrIE5E1OM/SoRCK5KBDmI/AAAAAAAAAGc/kCuHItjFC_A/s1600-h/0813091230-775642.jpg

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42! said:

I think you completely missed my point...

When you buy the new boxed set you get all you need to play in the Warhammer fantasy setting just buying the 3 DnD 4e books gives you a game to play but no setting and if you want to get a setting you'll need a 4th book - so (without knowing whats actually in the 3ed Warhammer fantasy rpg) in order to get the same package as the new WFRPG you'll need 4 DnD books which makes it at least equally if not more expensive to get into DnD.

Honestly, do you need a setting, honestly what will this box set tell you you dont know, or that isnt online or on lexicanum. People who buy this product will in 80% likelihood aready know Warhammer.

And D&D does come with a setting in mind. Its called Im a guy with a sword, you are a wizard with magic, he is a thief and now we have to kill those orks who kidnapped that farmers daughter and took her into the woods. Why do we have this happen every time we walk in a tavern?

And if I did buy a setting for the game then we are probably up to $90, not much less then W3E, but with considerably more options and page count. And if my 4th friend Joe comes he can play as well.

Face it, this is a money making scheme. The goal here is to cash in on a new edition, prevent piracy, get your $100, charge you $100 more if you want more players (until 6 months later when the accesories come out for only $45) and not let you play halflings.

And at heart, as a capitalist, I have no problem with this. But as a fan of WFRP2E Im quite put off.

I just hope the license they have expires sooner then later.

None of my friends are going to share the cost with me, none of my friends are interested in changing the game they play.

In the end, go ahead, spend your $100 on it, Fortunately, I dont have to and I wont.

Ill be the guy standing in front of the product telling the kids the 5 PDFs for WFRP2E they can buy with that money and still be able to get a pizza and some pepsi for the game.

Posted at

Peacekeeper_b said:

42! said:

I think you completely missed my point...

When you buy the new boxed set you get all you need to play in the Warhammer fantasy setting just buying the 3 DnD 4e books gives you a game to play but no setting and if you want to get a setting you'll need a 4th book - so (without knowing whats actually in the 3ed Warhammer fantasy rpg) in order to get the same package as the new WFRPG you'll need 4 DnD books which makes it at least equally if not more expensive to get into DnD.

Honestly, do you need a setting, honestly what will this box set tell you you dont know, or that isnt online or on lexicanum. People who buy this product will in 80% likelihood aready know Warhammer.

And D&D does come with a setting in mind. Its called Im a guy with a sword, you are a wizard with magic, he is a thief and now we have to kill those orks who kidnapped that farmers daughter and took her into the woods. Why do we have this happen every time we walk in a tavern?

And if I did buy a setting for the game then we are probably up to $90, not much less then W3E, but with considerably more options and page count. And if my 4th friend Joe comes he can play as well.

Face it, this is a money making scheme. The goal here is to cash in on a new edition, prevent piracy, get your $100, charge you $100 more if you want more players (until 6 months later when the accesories come out for only $45) and not let you play halflings.

And at heart, as a capitalist, I have no problem with this. But as a fan of WFRP2E Im quite put off.

I just hope the license they have expires sooner then later.

None of my friends are going to share the cost with me, none of my friends are interested in changing the game they play.

In the end, go ahead, spend your $100 on it, Fortunately, I dont have to and I wont.

Ill be the guy standing in front of the product telling the kids the 5 PDFs for WFRP2E they can buy with that money and still be able to get a pizza and some pepsi for the game.

Again not really getting my point - I'm only comparing what you need to get into either DnD 4ed or the new WFRPG since people have brought up that it seems more expensive than DnD 4ed.

-----

Sure anyone who already has all the 1st and 2nd ed books really don't need a new system, hell they don't even need WFRP 2ed they could run it with just about any gritty system but new players/GMs don't have that and need setting material in order to play.

I for one have always just been a player in WFRP and thus haven't got many books but am considering buying this box because it looks to have an interesting system and because it'll give me a place to start and some GM space that I wouldn't have when playing with my friends because they know all the 2ed books intimately (it is a little scary as a GM.when the players know lots more than you of both setting and system).

42!

Posted at

One of the most recently produced RPG boxsets (maybe the most recently produced RPG boxset, I dunno) was Exalted's Dreams of the First Age. It was advertised as quasi-canon, is pretty much completely optional, has none of the material you need to play. Everyone knew this in advance. It was $50, and the pre-order run sold in very impressive time.

So, when a glorified supplement sells for 50 dollars, a full core set for 100 isn't too bad. I'm not saying I'm happy about any of this news--but I'm willing to accept that it could be worthwhile, or even good. I'm keeping an open mind.

And before some moron accuses me of being a fanboy, even if I buy the boxed set, I'm still going to play 2e whenever possible.

Posted at

Ok....having read the FAQ and it stating that you could run a group of 5 or 6 by sharing things, that alleviates a lot of my concern. I may be cheap, and concerned about the price...but I am a little more willing to check it out now.

Posted at

Atendarius said:

Has anyone complaining about the price even played an RPG before?

From the sounds of it, probably longer than you've been alive.

Let's take a look at some of the RPG competition.

D&D 4e 3 books, list price $100, Amazon for around $60. But you can spread those out to three purchases as your budget allows. And that purchase can provide you with enough to play with any size group.

Mongoose Traveller - core book $39.95 for the hardcover, $19.95 for the pocket softback. Everything you need to GM for as many players as you want.

Star Wars Saga Edition $39.99 (I'm told this has everything needed to GM a basic game, but I'm going just by hearsay).

Dark Heresey $59.99, again, everything needed play for as many players as you want.

Pathfinder, $49.99 - haven't seen it, may be like D&D in that you need additional books. However, it's usable with most 3.5 stuff, so there is a lot available cheaply used, and/or online for free. Again, as many players as you want.

Conan RPG $39.95 for core book

Stronium Dog RPG - $49.95 for core book

Judge Dredd RPG - $49.95 for core book

Runequest $24.95 for core book

Spycraft $49.95 for core book

Fantasycraft $49.95 for core book

Now, don't forget the situation just a couple of years ago -

D&D 3.5e, 1 book everything else available in the SRD

WFRP 2e, 1 book, $39.95 - 49.95 (can't remember what I paid for mine)

Yes, from the components in the WFRP 3e box, the price point is reasonable. I'm not saying you don't get a lot for your money. It's what those components seemingly restrict you to that's got my hackles up - enough components for only three players? Ok, depending on your group, you might be able to squeeze 4, 5 or maybe even six into the core game. Contrast that to the second WFRP 1e campaign I ran back in the mid 90s. We had 9-10 people show up for the first session, and only 2-3 books. By the sixth session, we had 13 players, plus me as GM, and only 4-5 books still. Even when we finally settled down to our 9 players + GM, we still only had six books between us (we had 3 couples who each shared a book), but could have happily run it on one.

From my perspective, price point in and of itself isn't a complaint. But it is one of the many factors that have me so thoroughly disgusted with the situation that yes, I'm going to harp on it, too.

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MILLANDSON said:

Ron B. Stard said:

The reason why the game box contains 4 (!) books, a sheadload of cards, dice and templates is that FFG wants to make it seem that you get a lot of stuff in it, and that the high price tag is really kinda worth it. Whereas if it was just one book, how would they justify a 100 dollars price tag? No way.

The fact is that all the stuff that comes with the box is cheap as mud to manufacture, so they make a huge profit compared to the old book RPGs. Don't be fooled by the shiny things. Just say no.

As to the four books, why make 4 of them when you could have made just one? Exactly, it's because they want to fool you again: see you don't get 1 book, you get FOUR!!!

It's like those TV shop networks, lot of noise and extras but the actual product is crap.

Nice conspiricy theory...

conspiracy or not, I think that most people will have a hard time believing that the decision to use custom dice wasn't driven by the fact that those dice will make FFG money. It doesn't sound like you can play it without their dice, and they'll be the only source, because of copy right laws. And they can count on the fact that most RPGer's like to have their own set of dice...

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kristof65 said:

conspiracy or not, I think that most people will have a hard time believing that the decision to use custom dice wasn't driven by the fact that those dice will make FFG money. It doesn't sound like you can play it without their dice, and they'll be the only source, because of copy right laws. And they can count on the fact that most RPGer's like to have their own set of dice...

Some other company could easily make dice for the game. They can alter the symbols on the dice. So long as the players who are using them are clear what each symbol stands for it will work just fine. You could even leave them mostly the same - a different looking hammer, etc.

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GreyLord said:

Why would a new player choose WFRP over the starter set of 4e? It certainly won't be due to cost.

Because 4e is pure crap and hopefully 3e WFRPG won't be. :)

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Steerpike said:

Some other company could easily make dice for the game.

True. But will they? Probably not. GW has had custom scatter dice for years in their 40k/WFB games, and they are still the primary source for those type of dice - it isn't easy to find the non-GW dice that can be used for those games..

WFRP 3e will have to hit D&D popularity levels before any of the major dice manufacturers decided to try doing dice for it. If even then.

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42! said:

When you buy the new boxed set you get all you need to play in the Warhammer fantasy setting just buying the 3 DnD 4e books gives you a game to play but no setting and if you want to get a setting you'll need a 4th book

You're wrong again on yet another point. D&D 4e has a default setting.

You can quite easily get the 3 core books for $66 and change but only the DM needs those. A player only needs the PHB found easily for $25 or less.

But with all the D&D haters here, let's look at something else: Dark Heresy is $60 retail but can be found for less than $40 too. WFRP 2ed for $40 retail, a complete game and setting. So charging 250% more for actually less material (see careers) is ridiculous.

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kristof65 said:

Steerpike said:

Some other company could easily make dice for the game.

True. But will they? Probably not. GW has had custom scatter dice for years in their 40k/WFB games, and they are still the primary source for those type of dice - it isn't easy to find the non-GW dice that can be used for those games..

WFRP 3e will have to hit D&D popularity levels before any of the major dice manufacturers decided to try doing dice for it. If even then.

Probably wouldn't be worth the money for other companies to do it; just pointing out that they can do so without running afoul of intellectual property laws.