Yavathol said:

My god yes! Especially point #2.

As for the OP's mention of Priest/Cleric spells being just as numerous as a wizard's: I disagree.

From what I remember, Clerical magic does not invoke Tzeentch's Curse, and Clerics can wear armor. That would make Wizards quite underpowered in comparison.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong: I'm a bit foggy on those rules...

Necrozius said:

Not to start a debate about spell casters or anything but I always thought wizards were more powerful because they got magic at first career while a divine spellcaster would have to wait until 2nd career. Though I admit you do have a point.

So if every monster has its own dice (the only explanation if you consider the many different dice types) what is if I loose my oger dice? I guess I just have to change to the dragon then....

What I want from WFRP3? Simple, more sourcebooks that cover areas and races that WFRP2 didn't get to develop.

superklaus said:

Wow I never thought of that. Do you think that there'll really be such a multitude of dice?

Perhaps they'll be taking a different route: special dice for different kinds of attacks.

Like Feral dice (bite, claw)

flame template dice (for all breath weapons, some spells, warpfire throwers)

poison/toxic (extra damage or weakening results)

Or whatever. The point is that perhaps certain monsters use certain kinds of dice to represent their method and flavor of attack.

Kind of like Descent?

lordsneek said:

What I want from WF well... ok, I believe you, so add RP 3-rd ed.

1. Easy expandable and easy to modify mechanics, which will allow me to make my own rules, and play it as fully skill based NO Experience Points game, as I did with it's predecessor.

2. Support for players making their own rules (maybe some blank cards, blank profession sheets, blank dices). If thats possible I want all my rules, changes with skills and mechanics to blend with the originally released stuff.

3. To be non heroic. I don't like heroic type games, maybe that is the reason I never even tried to play D&D.

4. Lots of addons, lots of background, lots of new not published info.

5. Magic even better than 2-nd ed had.

6. BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD... hmmm... on the seconf thought I always favored Nurgle (what's the point of killing those miserable buggers if you can watch them suffer in misery )...

Sunatet said:

I think today's developer diary career cards exemple can quite assure you on that ;-)

I mean, who in heaven would consider a Barber-Surgeon an Heroic character?? XD (although it is one of the best careers ever created)

Dreary_Angel said:

Well not exactly... Today's dev diary assured me, that players can start as an normal almost ordinary (try to name ordinary a man that keeps a blede on your throat) man. And that is good

We know nothing about what happens when they get some experience, and if in the end they become half gods that are able to kill demons single handedly, or not.

I believe, that's not the case, and if it is, I can spend some time to adjust player abilities like I did in 2-nd ed.

Anyway it's better to include it in a wishlist, than not

On the subject of clerical spells, clerics should be inferior to wizards when it comes to magic and here's why.

Clerics don't spend much time learning actual magic. What they know is simplified, rote knowledge that is (comparatively) safe and easy to use and repeat. Wizards, on the other hand, focus their entire lives around learning and using magic. This isn't a case of clerics being lazy, this is a case of them having a totally different focus.

Many train for war and practice with weapons like a professional warrior. Others learn sailing or healing and so forth. They spend time and effort learning mundane religious law and doctrine. They pray, they undergo trials and ordeals, heed the orders of the superiors, tend to their flocks, and otherwise serve their faith. Magic, for them, is a blessing and a tool used to accomplish the divine will.

Logically, from a realistic point of view, the guy who focuses his life around learning magical theory and practicing magic is going to be much better at it and have a wider range of techniques than the guy who rote learns some spells as a sideline.

From a game balance point of view, it's insane to give the cleric magic equal to a wizard. Clerics are already powerful martially and socially, without the legal restrictions and potentially lethal social liabilities of a wizard. The career path is powerful enough already and to make it equal to the wizard in the wizard's area of specialization for which the career sacrifices skill in all other areas is absurd. It makes the cleric overpowered and playing a wizard pointless. Why do so when the cleric suffers not from Tzeentch's Curse or Witch Hunters, can cast easily in most armour, is socially powerful, and equal to all but the best warriors in terms of martial prowess?

Cynical Cat said:

We don't know all that much about how divine magic in v3. They have probably taken game balance into consideration. From an in-game point of view, there isn't really a logical reason for Wizards to have more powerful magic. Yes, wizards spend their entire lives devoted to learning magic. But priests don't "learn some rote spells as a sideline." They don't learn their spells at all. They pray to their god and BAM! lightning bolt. That lightning bolt could be far more or far less powerful than a mage's spell. Where the power comes from is unclear - is it truly divine intervention, or just the priest subconsciously manipulating warp energies? - but it doesn't really matter.

macd21 said:

That's wrong. Priests performs highly ritualized spells (WFRP book, 141). They have little or no understanding of magical theory, so yes that's rote learning. Priests don't learn their spells from their gods, they believe their "prayers" are resulting in divine intervention. They aren't far off about that. Ultimately magic comes from the warp so both methods produce results (of course one is ignorant and part time and the other is informed and focused). That's why Chaos Sorcerers can become very powerful quickly. They join divine favor (divine magic) to understanding and driving will (arcane magic) (Volan's theories, Realms of Sorcery page 55).

Of course the real kicker is that the best spellcasters in the world, the High Elves and the Slann, have priestly ranks but whose magical practice is arcane.

Wouldn't you classify Croaker from the Black Company as a Barber Surgeon, or at least an ex one?

E

If we're going WFRP, then Croaker has got Barber-Surgeon in his background. Considering that even rusty he's good enough to do an appendectomy, a serious piece of adominal surgery, I would say he's definitely got an advanced career in the medical field.

Cynical Cat said:

No, that's what the wizard's think happens - it's their rational explanation for priestly abilities. The fact that the implementation of divine magic often flies in the face of what is known about normal spells is ignored, because wizards want a 'rational' explanation for what is happening. Some of what priests do doesn't make sense if the winds of magic are supposed to work the way magical theory says they do.

One alternate theory holds that the priests aren't casting spells at all. Instead, the gods actually do exist. The gods (powerful divine/daemonic warp beings) are the ones who cast the spells, not the priests. The priests merely focus the god's attention on the material world. The priests are literally calling upon their gods to aid them.

macd21 said:

It is the High Elf Mages who think the Human Priests are simply casting magic.

macd21 said:

This is correct. I wouldn't go so far as to say the priests "aren't casting spells", but they definately are channelling their god's energies into the mortal realm (which, to me, is casting). The primary difference between secular and divine magic is that secular magic requires mortals to directly bend the winds themselves while divine magic relies on gods to "filter" the winds before they're granted to the mortal.

I think 2E divine magic was fine--priests aren't magicians per say and as such they spend most of their lives doing mundane things as others have noted, whereas wizards dedicate most of their lives to magic and nothing but magic. That's not to say priests can't cast effective spells--one look at Tome of Salvation will disprove that notion quite quickly--but a smiting Sigmarite wouldn't be as reliable in calling down comets or fire as a magister of the Celestial or Bright colleges would be.

macd21 said:

You completely misunderstand the argument. Volans isn't denying the existence of gods. Instead he is affirming their existence and power. The gods are real and they are of the warp. Wizards understand very well how divine magic works because, like the winds they use, it is of the warp. Divine magic derives from the warp essence that forms the gods themselves.

The high elves know and understand this. They aren't exactly a pack of raving atheists as they incorporate their religion into every aspect of their lives and name the center of their sorcerous practice, The Tower of Hoeth, after their name for the god of knowledge. The words of Loremaster Teclis on the subject (Realms of Sorcery, page 57):

"The .miracles' that your human priests believe to be demonstrations of the direct interventions of the gods are just spells of another kind. Aethyrically sensitive priests channel quite unwittingly the elements of Aethyr's Winds through convoluted rituals and great faith, and then shape it with their conscious and subconscious expectations. Just as the gods are created and shaped through mortal endeavours and expectations, so are their blessings."

Note that both Volans and Teclis's commentaries agree with each other and they both originate from two of the most capable and knowledgeable magicians ever to live as well as being able to perceive all colours of magic. It also explains why the magic is inferior (priests are part time magicians who often don't understand the technical aspects of spellcasting), why it is subject to divine wrath instead of Tzeentch's Curse (because the aethyr they're channelling is that associated with their god and thus directly subject to the god's will) and the reality of the gods (priestly magic would just be clumsy, inept wizardry without the contact to a benevolent patron).

My arguments rests on logic and referenced canonical material. I await your response.

Cynical Cat said:

No one is saying that divine magic is not of the warp (except for the priests themselves). However, the testimonies of Volans and Teclis aren't conclusive. They are in-game theories to explain why priests can cast spells - theories that don't answer all of the questions pertaining to them. Teclis is especially blind to some of the flaws in his theory (he sees priestly magic as 'subconscious' spellcasting, ignoring the differences between arcane and divine spells). Volans is a little more open minded.

However, the fact remains that there is no reason, besides game balance, for priests to be less powerful than wizards. If their spells are subconscious manifestations of faith, then the very fact that they don't need to 'think' about what they are doing could give their spells immense potency. A wizard needs to understand how the winds of magic work and how to manipulate them - a priest does so without even thinking about it.

Alternatively, if divine spells are, literally, divine intervention, then all that matters is that the priest is on good terms with his god. Priest is a favoured follower of Ulric = priest who can call down lightning bolts whenever he wants.

In each case what determines the priest's power is not knowledge or learning, but faith. If the first theory is true then the strength of the priest's faith determines how well he can channel the Aethyr. If the second is true then the stronger the priest's faith then the greater the god will favour him.

Either option can lead to priests who can call upon powers as great as that of wizards simply due to faith, as opposed to study.

You're in error Teclis's response, as detailed in my reply, explains everything. You haven't addressed any of my points or provided any support from canonical material. You claim that it doesn't explain everything. What does it fail to explain? You claim that a magic user with less training, practice, and skill should be equal to one with superior education. I'm guessing you don't apply such standards to physicians when you're in need of medical attention. You claim that only game balance requires the wizard to be a superior magician to the priest, when the very explanations provided for how magic works in universe consists of an unrefuted logical argument that requires wizards to be superior magicians. The arguements are expresssed by the highest level of experts, in universe.

Against this you have . . . a pet theory that runs against the current in universe source material. A theory that lacks a single reference to any supporting material and a cry of "it doesn't explain everything" that mentions no holes in the argument or the advancement of a counter argument that provide a superior answer.

If I were to use V2's rulebook as my sole guide for the nature of divine magic, I'd have to agree with Cynical Cat. (See WFRP2, page 144: "Since Priests get their spells from their Gods, they run the risk of displeasing some rather powerful beings." ) Interestingly enough, the image that Cynical Cat's avatar is taken from is on page 145.

I don't know enough about canon to argue either way, but my personal interpretation of the setting is more like macd21's -- that the gods may or may not be real, and that divine magic is powered by the same stuff as color magic, just accessed in a different way.

Cynical Cat said:

This is a joke, right? Have you even read my response? You realise that you've just done what you're accusing me of - you haven't addressed any of my points, you are ignoring what are not "pet theories" but in-game canon theories (you do recognise that they are just Teclis and Volan's theories reworded, right?). As for canon, I'll quote Volan's theory:

"The priests and clerics tho can utilise divine magic do not need to know any spellcraft or arcane art... The Clerics simply prayed to their Gods with humility and great faith, and, if feeling inclined to do so, these Gods provided the miracles that were asked of them."

He goes on to point out that clerics are not magically inclined poeple. That a priest "with no magical training can perform feats that a Magister could perform only after months, or even years, of faithful study and practice". He also points out that the strength of a priests spells is dependant on his piety and faith. And he specifically wonders why the instinctive beliefs and emotions of clerics are just as successful in controlling magic as the "considered, practiced and logically deduced enchantments" of the wizards.

Priests don't cast spells the same way that wizards do. They don't practice magic, study it, learn it. They just pray. It isn't about the difference between a part time dabbler in the arcane arts and a full time scholar. It is the difference between two different types of magic. Neither need be more powerful than the other.

I think there was a topic here once. Here's what I would want from 3:

Stronger usage of the highlights of careers and diversifying them. For example. If we're going to have a knight's career, it would be IMMENSELY handy to have a list of common knighthoods and details on two or three. I think the same goes for all of the careers.

I'd like to see sample characters for every career. The bestiary in 2 had some of this, but they were still stuck on retaining the names from 1 (e.g. footpad). If that's the case, list several names in the actual career. I know, it's nitpicking..but isn't that what we're here for?

More human regional/racial variations.

Fewer details on marriage and family rituals that are little more than ripped-off encyclopedia entries (e.g. RotIQ).

A seperate product specializing on pirates, wreckers, riverwardens, admirals, captains of the sea, ships and relevant adventures.

A FOCUS on making the GM's job easier:

* One thing that they tried to do with opponents was come up with a slaughter margin. I think I'd like to see more of that with a gauge of a party's strength defined as: ADVANCED 1 or ADVANCED 2 or ADVANCED 3. Make-up: 1 warrior, 1 ranger-type, 1 "non" combatant, 1 unarmored/lightly combatant (to quote a couple of the 1e character "categories").

* Remove unnecessary extra chart references where possible. For example in 2e: use one mechanic instead of 2 once you get to criticals.

An emphasis on how to get more players involved..i.e. how to grow the hobby (if it is in as much trouble as is reported).

I'll think of more stuff later that doesnt' matter at this point.

jh

..

Detailed new lore.

Beatiful new art.

Seeds for adventures and campaigns.

macd21 said:

Nice way to completely ignore Teclis completely, complete with his determination that spellcasting priests are casting clumsy spells that channels aethyr aligned with their gods, the fact that high elves don't use clerical casting because its inferior, the fact that priests are casters but spend little of their time or education in actually understanding magic. Your argument is still "the ignorant guy doing something by rote is equal to the skilled professional." That clerics use magic and aren't magically inclined supports that clerical magic should be inferior to arcane and reinforces my argument. You selectively quoted Volans, not the more devastating Teclis who answers the issue of why priests get good results because of the nature of the aethyr they channel., because you wanted to evade those points.

No where have you provided an example of an unaccounted for point, which you claimed existed in your previous post.

No where have you supported your previous claim that "the god" casts the spells, which I quoted Volans and Teclis to disprove and to establish that priests are tapping the aethyr and casting in a manner similar to wizards. You've shifted your goalposts and are now attempting to ignore Teclis and the canon information that priest spells are merely rote learned rituals and are trying to hand wave away the obvious and logical conclusion that wizards are superior casters.

The greatest practitioners of magic in the Warhammer world are beings like Nagash, Teclis, and Drachenfells, all wizards. The High Elven mages represent the pinnacle of common magical practice. The only priests who rank at those levels are those like Morathi who are also wizards. Sure you could design a game world when priestly magic power is equal to or superior arcane might, but that's not Warhammer.