The "usefulness" of an expansion is entirely subjective I think. You have to take a broader view of the cards included in the expansion AFTER it has been added to the main deck and even then after a number of plays.

The object of every expansion is not necessarily to make the game harder, like you might expect in a campaign from an RPG or a video game for instance, but to add a bit of narrative or substance to the game. Novel twists are added, like optional rules, or alternative endings and <insert cool idea here>.

The game (story) of Talisman relies on the deck of cards (pages of its book) which changes from game to game. You can travel around the countryside and not meet anything of note, except a lost Princess and a Wild Boar. However, the same journey on another day might have you facing a Giant, three Dragons and the Devil.

As The_Warlock rightly says, the difficulty of a card is determined by when it is encountered. We have all been surprised by the weakest of enemies once in a while.

When expansions are released there will of course be cards that people might feel are disappointing or "weak". I myself would like to see a few "Über Enemies" but I am sure I wouldn't want to draw 3 or 4 of them in a row as that would spoil the game.

We all know there are "X amount" of expansions to come given the trend with FFG releases, and who knows what else besides. I am confident that enemy attributes and card numbers will all balance out in the end. Until then, I am prepared to enjoy the narrative that each game offers.

If there is no difficulty in the game, then it will become very boring.

Because we have a lot of cards, strong enemies can easily be added to the deck.

There is no fun in defeating weak enemies. I can do it with my eyes closed

The Reaper expansion has also more weak enemies, and with frostmarch added to the deck, the weak enemies will increase a lot.

there is also no fun, if you know that most cards will have no negative effect on you. ( lot's of objects and followers is a example)

Talisman must feel like a real adventure, and i want to sit on the edge of my chair due to exciting dangers.. !

Let's bring calamity to the world of Talisman !

We need it !

Velhart said:

Right, but difficulty in Talisman is related to card + Character + current status of Character. You can't say that a card cannot be dangerous in any situation, you'll always find one; of course there are cards that hurt you more than the others, but their presence does not guarantee for game balance (or difficulty). Usually they bring down Characters that already suffered misfortune in the game, because of the total randomness of card draws.

Velhart said:

Weak enemies are needed because they slow down the stronger Character's progression. When you're sure you can defeat most Enemies you're not very happy to auto-win and spend several turns to increase your Strength/Craft. These Enemies give to the weaker Characters some time to recover, while not consituting a major risk for them (but they can still roll bad and lose Lives to such weak Enemies).

Velhart said:

I agree on the "lots of Objects and Followers" implication; there are too many useful cards now, I'm sure that in a 2-player game it takes a lot to draw something that poses a threat to one of the players. If you play with 4-5-6 people it looks more balanced than before. There's no one or two players that get stronger and stronger while the others struggle to survive to board encounters they consider a joke; now everybody's playing with equal satisfaction. Everybody's getting his share of Objects/Followers, then someone will prevail because he's faster, luckier and smarter than everyone else.

I'm not the type of player that considers Talisman a rolegame or an attempt to simulate a realistic fantasy world, but I think it looks more like a real adventure if you don't fight a horde of Dragons every single day.

The_Warlock said:

If no dangerous cards will be added in a expansion, then you will never find it.

Off course, it's still a random factor, but if you add more positive cards to the game, and less negative cards, then it's logical that you will draw more positive cards in the game !

The Frostmarch expansion, has only a few cards, that are very dangerous.

This expansion contains almost no danger and the worst point is, that 84 cards will be added to the deck !

That makes the mainboard somewhat a tropical paradise.

The next small expansion must fix all problems that the Frostmarch expansion has made.

It's sad

The_Warlock said:

It just goes to show that you can't please everyone, all of the time...

If weak enemies are really that much of a problem, just add a house rule like "after each 30 minutes of play, any enemy adds another 2 to its strength or craft". Job done.

Dam said:

Well, most of our house rules are geared to making things harder in general. This one is an exception. For example, in this case, we assume (unlike the rulebook, lets be clear) attack roll = roll + ST + modifiers. i.e. if you roll 10, everything included, weapons etc…, if your Craft (total) isn’t 10+, you lose. May not be as intended but it’ll do (for us).

Also, as for making things tougher, as the adventure deck gets bigger, tougher single cards, even ST or CR 10+… really won’t matter much as they’ll be rarely drawn. If you really want to make things tougher, you need “meta-Cards” i.e. cards that affect other cards.

My example of meta-cards = for rewards on some kills, there are a few “Draw 5 cards, pick an object, discard the rest” type cards.

To avoid having to hope for the 1 in 50 or worse chance of getting a ST/CR 7+, have an expansion called, say, “Call to War”. War is declared on Talisman realms from a newly named land. Examples could be…

Corporal ST/CR 2. Draw 5 cards. Pick toughest (highest #) ST/CR Enemy. Discard the rest. They combine. You pick whether they fight in ST or Craft.

Sergeant ST/CR 3. Draw 10 cards. Pick toughest (highest #) ST/CR Enemy. Discard the rest. They combine. You pick whether they fight in ST or Craft.

Lieutenant ST/CR 4. Draw 5 cards. Pick ALL ST/CR Enemy. Discard the rest. They combine. You pick whether they fight in ST or Craft.

Captain ST/CR 5. Draw 10 cards. Pick ALL ST/CR Enemy. Discard the rest. They combine. You pick whether they fight in ST or Craft.

General ST/CR 6. Draw 10 cards. Pick ALL ST/CR Enemy. Discard the rest. All enemies in this region move to this space. They combine. You pick lowest of your ST or Craft.

Warlord ST/CR 7. Draw 10 cards. Pick ALL ST/CR Enemy. Discard the rest. All enemies on the board move to this space. They combine. You pick lowest of your ST or Craft. Kill Warlord, you win game. (Obviously, only 1 copy of this one)

(Ok, some are a little over the top, but you get my point).

Or, said another way, a 14/14 Godzilla’s Mother card is all well and good, but there’s now, what, 1 chance in 300 of drawing it? Doesn’t help much. But meta-enemies (IMO of course) is the way to go and we already have this mechanism in play for goodies for some dragons, maps, etc…

A handful of ST/CR 7-10 really isn’t going to stop people when they hit 8+. And, for a lower character, a CR 1 troll isn’t “more” dead by being attacked by a Craft 7 demon, then by a Craft 19 super combo like above. It’s just one life but it can hit the “top guys” where it hurts.

And, it makes the game more random, which I like. I know, for some, that’s “the game playing you” and you like what you like. But, just like I hate anything to do with movement control (cuz really, it’s not like the Desert, Cursed Glade and Chasm isn’t avoided like the plague enough like it is), I hate the auto-win combat stage of the game, since it pushes people to go to the CoC and end the game “early”, at least by our standards.

But, if you hate the above, to each his own.

Personally, I’d love to see a “War” expansion, like above, or a “summoning” expansion, or something to monkey wrench the top dude’s progression.

But that’s just me.

Velhart said:

I don't know how could you come to this conclusions only after a look at the cards. I also don't know why in these forums is enough to say that an Expansion is bugged, or lame, to make everyone scream that it's true and there are many problems to be fixed. All of this, without having played enought to playtest everything and, usually, giving a personal perspective that's absolutely not valid for every style of play and changes greatly depending on how many Characters are playing.

I don't play this game with the same group every time, nor are we always the same number of players. My first Frostmarch game was with 3 players and the second with 5. The first was not exactly a good test because the Warlock Quest variant is too much different from the tradition to serve as an example. Second game was definitely better and testified an important thing: increasing the balance of the main board and throwing in some powerful Spells has changed things a lot. In my opinion, everything's better now.

I tell you this because I saw a game with 5 Characters and everyone got his right chance to win. This is not common, as usually there are not more than 2 or 3 candidates for victory. This time we played with standard Crown ending, because I forgot at home the new Endings, and the game lasted a lot, about 5 1/2 hours. The style of play of my group is quite slow compared to others, mostly because everyone's looking for adventure more than final victory. People start looking at the centre very late in the game, if I'm not pushing them because I improve my Character quickly (doesn't happen too often, I usually have bad draws/rolls all the way).

If you take a closer look to Frostmarch list and compare it to the Reaper, which you seem to like so much, there are no big differences. Frostmarch has more Objects and Magic Objects, but no one is really THAT powerful, compared to Reaper. Most important, there are less Followers inside, and no one is like Reaper Followers, which are all kick-ass followers. = no difference for the positive stuff Characters can draw

Frostmarch Events

Divine Protection+
Fate Bound-
Howl of the Wendigo*
Planeswalker+
Ragnarok* (=more powerful version that encompasses Earthquake, Closed Shop, Curfew)
Snow Drifts-
Ymir's Glow+ (=Astral Conjunction)

Other Reaper Events:
Fool's Gold-
Horse Thief-
Patrol*
Prophesy*
The Boatman+
The Gathering-
Werewolf-
Whirlwind-

But which ones are always dangerous? Only Whirlwind. Which one is a Global Event that affects every Character? No one! At least Frostmarch adds many events that touch every Character in the game.

Same for Strangers and Places, that serve some useful purpose that was almost completely neglected by the Reaper (spending Gold and acquiring Spells, while adding more chances to get Warlock Quests).

Only difference you have is in the Enemies, most notably Enemy Animals. Reaper added a Lot of powerful Animals (did you notice how easy was for the Minstrel to find and charm a Str 3/4 Animal since Reaper publication? I did), some Strength/Craft Enemies with Special Abilities, and some Craft Enemiesthat fill the holes in the Base set (more Craft 3/4/5 Spirits).

Frostmarch just brings the balance back to the base set: less chance to find powerful Objects/Followers, a variety of low Craft Spirits and low Strength Animals, some new Strangers, Places and Events that are more than welcome as they make the game change a lot.

I see what this means for the game: equal chances for everyone. I'm pretty sure that if you play with 2 players you won't see that much interaction, as the board is pretty big for only two Characters. With two of you, you almost play two solo adventures, therefore you need the board to be more challenging. With lots of players, each lost Life exposes you to the threat of being killed by another Character. And still, there were Characters having a bad time in the last game, with 1-2 Lives left despite of high Strength/Craft.

I don't have to convince anyone that Frostmarch is excellent. I think so, because it suits a purpose that's reasonable for me, but I just want you to think more and "broader" (=out of your individual experience) before you express final judgement. I see too many posts that are questioning Frostmarch quality on this board, but I don't think it's time to evaluate its impact on the game.

I am not quoting so much text.

I stay at my word.

No need to sum up the events..

The only very dangerous event card from frostmarch is Fate Bound. That' it ! ( not adding snow drifts) that's a laugh)

And the Reaper expansion has already 5 cards, that are doing something negative to the character.

Velhart said:

Sorry that I wrote so much.

It's definitely better to always repeat the same things and express disappointment from your point of view.

It's sound and clear, no need to debate about it.

Have a happy thread and a happy gaming, if you can with such silly expansions from FFG.

The_Warlock said:

I think that it's good if people are expressing their point view on the game.

This way, FFG can see what the fans want. (if they take a look here...)

No offense to you, it's just a debate about the events etc

The_Warlock said:

Never apologize for making a post with legitimate content... instead of one-liners. Forums are for conversation and expressions with substance... not "look at me" tweets. I like have something that takes more than a blink to read and is instantly identifiable as new in some way.

Of course on second thought, maybe you were just being sarcastic?

JCHendee said:

I was being sarcastic , but I don't want to start any argument about it.

I agree with your opinion concerning forum purposes, but I don't think Velhart disattended any of them. I only felt that he generally disregarded the contents of my long post to repeat again the same things he thinks about Frostmarch, which we know very well.

I just believed there should have been more of a discussion between fans.

The_Warlock said:

I kinda thought it was a bit tongue'n'cheek. But V. can do that too so take no offense; he can be pretty astute too, and I don't think he's intending anything by sticking too his guns.

I personally don't have either Reaper or Frostmarch myself. Our group shares out buying expansions for games so we can all test them before taking a personal plunge. Your comparison was thereby helpful, but overall I do feel the game is being a little loaded with gadgets (small or not). I was perplexed by some of the critters for Frostmarch comparable to similar in the base game. They were obviously weakened compared to enemies of similar concept and or title, at least at the low end. I'm not sure what that was about, but I didn't care for it.

I will agree that any changes or shifts are minor when one looks at types of cards, but when combined, sometimes the tiny things begin to add up to something more. I'll need to play it more when the gang gathers (hopefully over the holidays) and see what comes of it.

And again, your taking the time for a deep look and sharing the run down is appreciated. Food for thought.

The_Warlock said:

Hi The_Warlock,

I have read your long post, but i was disagreeing about the events, and the balance of the game.

You have a good point about objects/magic objects if you play with more players.

But we play with 2 players, and people will draw lot's of objects in the game.

Okay, I'm bumping this thread.

Everybody read the "Crown and Sceptre" ending carefully? I know I hadn't.

"If the character is on the Crown of Command and no other characters are present, he must cast on Command Spell at the start of each characters' turn (including his own)."

(emphasis added)

Whoah, really?!?!?! So unless you're already on the Inner Region with Transference in hand or in the Valley of Fire, you're dead-meat? Say 3-player game, ABC, A moves to the CoC, on B's turn BC lose a life, C's turn the same, A's turn once more, so they've lost 3 lives before B's turn comes around again. Haven't used CaS ending, and after having noticed the wording (via another thread), not sure it'll ever see action.

yeah, i saw the wording on the card.

You can say, that the first person who lands on the Crown can win the game.

You really need transference for this..

Dam said:

Sadly, I did. Ghoul with Life draining sword. 14 lives. Ridiculous amount right? 8 players. Crown and Scepter ending (drawn randomly). Someone else got it. Means that Ghoul would only get 1 turn, maybe 2, depending on where at the table the person on the CoC is sitting. Ghoul Forfeited, as did the rest of us, soon as my CoC rusher friend hit the CoC. Basically, unless it's a 2 player game and you're 1-2 spaces away from the CoC, it means "CoC person win." We house ruled that C&S = You insta-win; to prevent the frustrating death spiral of lives lost in a high player number game.

C&S is the least liked ending of the game for us. "4 Warlock Quests done. You insta-win." sounds better (to us) then the "teasing you into thinking you have a chance" ending of C&S. At least with standard ending, you have a chance.

My group came to similar conclusions about the C&S once it was tested. It is no different than our own "King of the Hill" rule, except it takes longer where it seems to assume it is somehow speeding up the endgame (yeah right). If we play random draw, we just treat it as KotH and ignore what's written on it. Whoever is on the CoC alone may use the Command Spell, but if no one else makes it into the Inner Region in a full round after that player has the CoC alone, then game is called. It's faster than the C&S, ten-tons less annoying, and eliminates the futility for everyone else.

Nothing to do with everything said before, just digging that topic from the last month grave to say : hey, the frenchie kwakie duck finally got that tiny frosty box yay !

Hem said:

So finally you got it !

I hope you have fun with it .

So Velhart, today I finally got my Frostmarch

[small] I wanted to share with You that small info.. . [/small]

Nemomon said:

Hi Nemomon,

That's nice news.

You have wait long enough for it.

Don't forget to give here your impression about the Frostmarch expansion

Just finished painting my Frostmarch miniatures

Wow

That's looking very good!

I wish that my miniatures were painted..

The Frostmarch is available in Germany now (i.e. in German).

And already I have questions:

Is the Glory Seeker a Monster or a Cultist? There are two cards, one says enemy - monster, the other one enemy - cultist.

If a Quest card forces you to discard anything, do you have to discard it in pieces? Example: Discard 3 gold: If you have no gold and get that quest, do you have to discard the next three gold pieces you receive? Or do you have to wait until you have 3 pieces at the same time? Or can you choose?