Hi,

New here. I just want to say thanks for posting those notes. My group is looking forward to this.

Sorry for the late response, basically here is what I saw...books...several in fact presumably rulebooks, all softcover and about the size of a good sized 40K codex book...probably 90 pages or so each...cards there were reference cards...reference cards are great...you could even make them yourself...character counters...these are meant to be stand up on a cross base presumably to be moved a on map...these could be probably be replaced by mini's. Dice...there were dice.

I know the above is vague and I know my gut feeling is also vague but what i've seen smacks of FFG capitalizing on two things 1) their experience as a successful board game company...there is a definite influence here. It's not a board game but like a board game. 2) relative success of D&D 4th ed. While not everyone likes the new edition there are plenty who do...I think one of the bonuses of the new D&D ed. is you can get easy to reference materials for your character...you get power cards and the like. As a result my gut said no way the concept alone is way too similiar and I'm not going to do it...not this time. While I like 4th ed. I won't be buying 3rd ed warhammer. I can appreciate FFG moving in a direction to increase their market share with a system similiar to but not exactly 4th ed in a setting that is popular. But I won't buy it, 2nd doesn't really need to be updated. Are there problems system wise probably what's broken can be fixed without a new edition...maybe a new printing with errata. But 3rd ed no way not from what I saw.

However, not to be too negative the production values are great...some of that board game influence maybe. I can also see how it would appeal to gamers who are more visual, btw that's not a slam or sarcasm, and having handy reference material is great.

Again, thanks for reading.

Some things I forgot to mention about the seminar in my original post:

The core box set will include a 32 page introductory adventure that is more meaty than most intro scenarios.

The game will include cards that again will keep you from having to reference the rulebook, or memorize effects. Jay gave the example that one card included is Blinded. The blinded player would keep the card next to their character sheet and be able to quickly glance down to see what in game effects they suffer. Once the condition is over the card is returned to the card pile.

The game has been in development for over a year or more. They have tested many different game mechanics, with input from many of their top game designers. Nothing in this game is haphazard. FFG is a smart, successful game company, and they do read these posts. They are not callus to your concerns.

The reason for a lack of concrete information about WFRP 3 is due more to marketing rather than just trying to keep everyone in the dark. To FFG's credit this has worked. Love it, hate it or something in-between, people are talking about Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay again. I'm sure after the dust settles from Gen Con we will be hearing more and more about the 3rd edition from FFG.

A Ratcatcher's Tale was a bit of misdirection, but not misinformation. If you read the Daily Altdorfers you will see many of the core designs for WFRP 3.

Cheers!

Typhus said:

Typhus said:

Couldn't they have just made these "reference" cards for WFRP 2?

Couldn't they just publish a new, more polished edition with new art and updates without an entirely new set of rules that is incompatible with the older material?

Is this what RPGs are going to be like from now on: mechanics changing every few years in order to resell the game? Fans forced to buy back in for hundreds of dollars (or whatever currency) every few years or get scalped on Ebay for older version stuff? Titles jumping from publisher to publisher long enough for each to produce its own core set of books.

It may be good for business, but I think it divides the fan base too much based on what edition they are willing to play.

My 2 cents (maybe less) please note that my writing is based on what i have read on this site and seen from the phots people have taken at gen con. So i do understand that ALL my be differnt when FFG gives out more information. and i know they will give us a complite over view in the next few weeks (look at Chaos in the old world, the have a copy of the rule book on the site to download. I will not think they will go that far but you will know what you are buying before you pay for it)

Cost of the new game: The group a co-DM is 5 people strong and growing. it is a shame that with new rules come the cost of buying new things. But most of my group only spends money on the main rule book and maybe on add-on if they want to play that type of char. so $40 3years ago (main rule book) and now $30 for the tool kit (as it seems that they have made a game that not everyone needs a rule book or core set but access to the books and core set is only to help the DM as need) and if only one member of the group needs to buy the big box set that is realy not to bad.

Adding cards to a RPG: It is very hard to keep some players wanting to read the books and learn / retain the rules in the books when every one has so much happening in their real lives.I think the idea of the cards for rules will be a great help to the people in my group that can not remeber the rules that will help them live throu a bad fight (such as Defence Action or even Parring Stance or a Priest forgetting that one spell). The promblem is not that they can not find the rule (as DM i have that probem 20 books and you know you saw that rule some were) but it slows down the game and takes the gamers out of the flow of the game. I was even thinking to make item cards to help with less writing on gamers sheets and rules for them ie: whip rules a hard to understand and rembemer if not used often. Nothing like some one buying Plate armor and two large fight later you find out that they did not take the negitives for wearing heavery armor or even adding it to the encomberice and them saying i did not read that rule before.

So i am all for FFG helping the game run smoother and fix some of the rules that need fixing ie: Encomberice, cost of items ect.

thanks for reading

Also a note to PointyEaredBastard are you at GENCon? if so can you take some nice CLEAN shoots of the cards and other parts of the box set maybe even the back side of the books and cards? I just have not gotten a good pic i can blow up and realy see the info other then on this site.

Side note to DagobahDave can you post the sheets you are taliking about to help with rule. AND THANKS SO MUCH for tring to talk on this site and others to get people to think about what we know and not what they are guessing will it be like.

Whats that in point 5.?

Does it mean if i want to play with more then 3 PC i have to buy an expansion???

What kind of RP is that? This is just ridiculous...

This new edition is not a pen and paper RPG anymore.

It is a "lot of tokens, plastik, cards and paper RPG"

All i need for an RPG is some dice, a char sheet and my imagination.

BLUE WIZARD: Couldn't they have just made these "reference" cards for WFRP 2?

Some of them, probably. From what I can tell of WFRP3's cards, they're more than just used for reference. There's going to be some kind of tactic-choosing system in which we'll select certain actions instead of others. Each action seems to have two uses, depending on whether you've chosen to play the 'aggressive' side of the card or the 'cautious' side.

It looks gimmicky, like a card-game mechanic, but I think what you're doing is adjusting your character's abilities on the fly. That's pretty cool, and the cards are a neat way to handle it -- because you have all the reference material you need, but you don't have a lot of useless information (the actions you've chosen not to play) in front of you, because those rules on the back-sides of the card faces you're presently using. It's little things like that which make me think that WFRP3 could be cool, and things might fit together a lot more neatly than they appear now.

BLUE WIZARD: Couldn't they just publish a new, more polished edition with new art and updates without an entirely new set of rules that is incompatible with the older material?

We don't know that this is an entirely new set of rules. I've said it a million times already, but I see a lot of things that have been carried over from V2. The attributes and skills have familiar names. The skills list in particular looks very much like the V2 list, with three levels of mastery. The skills list definitely is not the same, since it appears that WS and BS are now skills instead of attributes. We now have just six main (just like D&D, I know) attributes -- Strength, Toughness, Agility, Intelligence, Willpower, Fellowship.

So it is a different game, but you should notice that I'm using terms you're already familiar with. As long as we can find a common language between V2 and V3, we should be able to convert characters and adventures.

BLUE WIZARD: Is this what RPGs are going to be like from now on: mechanics changing every few years in order to resell the game? Fans forced to buy back in for hundreds of dollars (or whatever currency) every few years or get scalped on Ebay for older version stuff?

It's been going on for a long time now, but I think it's just a reality of the RPG market that companies need to produce new editions every year just to keep a steady stream of revenue from that product line.

No RPG company has forced anyone to buy anything, but I know what you mean.

Tetrarch said:

I've narrowed it down to needing just one friend.

Hemple Huss said:

I'd like to share my rules sheets, but because they contain copyrighted material I really can't.

DagobahDave said:

My memory's so muddy now, but someone mentioned that the action cards were two-sided and left me with the impression that they were aggro-stance on one side and cautious-stance on the other.

The action cards we've seen are color-coded red and green. On the Troll Slayer career card, you can see four 'puzzle pieces' which I think are your 'action card slots'. Troll Slayer has three red slots (bold/aggressive-stanced actions?) and one green (cautious/conservative?).

To me, this looks like you'll have a few action cards, and at the beginning of a challenge or scene (or whatever) you might 'load up' your career card (maybe) with your actions, choosing which stance to take for each type of action and working within the limited slots provided by your career. I don't know how or when you choose your stance, and I might be putting together graphical clues that don't really connect.

And if WFRP doesn't do that, I've got a big chunk of a homebrew system already worked out!

Hi there!

New here!

I've joined to say a word about this new WFRP 3rd.

I'm a long WFRP fun and was quite satisfied by 2nd edition. I've purchased every books that I can and was looking forward for more...

But...

FFG has decided that (it seems) D&D 4th is a model to follow and is organizing something that the community isn't very well versed into (or was not informed onto).

I don't understand why FFG hasn't involved the large community in the making of the 3rd edition, like Paizo has done for the creation of Pathfinder.

Tha said, I'd like to pose some of the main questions that are in my head:

1) Why a "rushed" third edition? 5 years for an RPG (venerable as WH) is a very short time...

2) Why a "package", with custom dice, "career cards", limited players, few careers (fourty?), etc.?

3) Why obscure rules like "Flee or Die", "Narrative Tools" and the like. WarHammer is what it is thanks to the specifc rules system AND background world.

4) Why all this talking about "Heroes". In WarHammer heroes aren't born, are forged. All this super-imaging, ultra-armored, highly fantasy draws will remind me of something more ludic and less gritty . From WH I want the mud and the blood. Otherwise I'll choose D&D.

5) Why the need of specifing that 3rd edition isn't a boardgame. It's and RPG, right?

6) Even if FFG has so innovative ideas about a 3rd edition, so revolutionary that can't but put on the market a new product, while not leaving all this boardgame "stuff" optional? If I'm happy enough of bookworming in by 200 books, why don't le me to do so and buy only the books and not the entire package? Perhaps because the game IS the package

Hey, welcome aboard! Let's see if we can tackle some of your concerns.

DEATH FROM ABOVE: Why a "rushed" third edition? 5 years for an RPG (venerable as WH) is a very short time...

If I had to guess, it's because the game was handed off to Fantasy Flight Games at a time when WFRP2 felt like it was nearing the tail end of its cycle. I think V2 had a couple more years left in it, but I can see why FFG wouldn't want to wait that long to try to revitalize the brand.

2) Why a "package", with custom dice, "career cards", limited players, few careers (fourty?), etc.?

Why a package? To fit all the stuff in, of course!

Why the custom dice? They look interesting, they're unusual, they're (almost) proprietary, and custom symbols allow for dice with unusual distributions (for instance a D8 with 3 red sides and 5 green sides). I think the main reason is because they're going to be fun to roll. If I'm playing a Warhammer game and I'm rolling dice that have hammers on them instead of numbers, something is going right . You'll find out more about how the dice work if you stick around. It's kinda cool.

Why career cards? Convenience for the player in that career, probably. I think there's more to it, but I couldn't explain it without your knowing a little bit more about the game.

Limited players? There's an Adventurer's Toolkit that's supposed to include materials so that more players can join, but details are extra-sketchy on this one. I think the reason for the 4-player limit could be (ironically) the size of the box, and I think it must have been an agonizing decision to keep the core game limited to 4 players. Well, maybe not so agonizing. It's also a good way to sell extra stuff.

40 careers? That sounds like a good number to me, but we don't know the full list of careers yet, so we'll see. Maybe you stay in a single career for longer. Maybe there's a three-tier career system instead of the four-tier system. Maybe there are no foreign careers. Those could be some reasons why there are fewer careers. Just as with V2, some careers will only be available in later supplements.

3) Why obscure rules like "Flee or Die", "Narrative Tools" and the like. WarHammer is what it is thanks to the specifc rules system AND background world.

Why is a "flee or die" rule any more obscure than a Fortune Point rule, just for an example? I don't know how it will work in the game, but "flee or die" is a solution that many GMs are already using to keep every combat from ending with a pile of corpses. If WFRP3 includes a solid rule for running away before getting killed, I'd be happy to see it.

The "narrative tools" haven't been talked about very much. What I gather is that some dice symbols that come up in your pool will indicate something that can be used to enrich (if that's the right word) the story. Some of your dice will indicate that you successfully hit, while others may indicate that you did so "only by luck" or "with real style" -- or something like that, perhaps.

V3 seems to have inherited some of the same general structure from V2. It might look like a really big leap from the game you already know, they have more in common than you can see at first glance.

4) Why all this talking about "Heroes". In WarHammer heroes aren't born, are forged. All this super-imaging, ultra-armored, highly fantasy draws will remind me of something more ludic and less gritty. From WH I want the mud and the blood. Otherwise I'll choose D&D.

Warhammer has always been about heroes. Go read the back covers to V1 and V2. We play heroes in this game. Hero is not a bad word. I don't know where you're getting the impression that V3 characters start off as anything different than what we've.

There are still Basic Careers. We don't yet know how powerful starting PCs will be in V3. I'll bet you can still play very low-level starting characters.

5) Why the need of specifing that 3rd edition isn't a boardgame. It's and RPG, right?

You must have missed the two days of non-stop ranting about how this is a board game. You've got a lot of catching up to do!

6) Even if FFG has so innovative ideas about a 3rd edition, so revolutionary that can't but put on the market a new product, while not leaving all this boardgame "stuff" optional? If I'm happy enough of bookworming in by 200 books, why don't le me to do so and buy only the books and not the entire package?

Why don't they let you just buy the books? Probably because you need the cards, the dice and the other stuff as an integral part of the play experience FFG wants you to have. This roleplaying game contains lots of parts that are best shipped in a box.

Perhaps because the game IS the package

I hope I'm reading you right! I concerned that V3 may be a game that struggles under the weight and complexity of its own components -- that it's more shine than substance.

DeathFromAbove said:

THE GAME LOOKS GREAT, I SAW MANY PHOTOS AND I READ AND HEARED WHAT JAY LITTLE HAD TOO SAY AND I'M IMPRESSED. THE GAME LOOK FANTASTIC, IT WILL BE A HIT. I HOPE I'LL HAVE IT BEFORE CHRISTMAS THIS YEAR.

JAY KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK! YOUR DOING WITH YOUR TEAM A GREAT JOB AND YOUR BRINGING THE WARHAMMER FANTASY ROLEPLAY TOO A NEW REVOLUTIONARY LEVEL.

I would like too ask only some questions:

When can I buy it?

How many pages will those book have?

Will we see a demo of the system like SH for DH?

Will the Adventures Toolkit be realsed with the core set?

And could we have more pics of the components and a full list of this wthat we will get in the core set and in the Adventures Toolikt?

@ ffgfan:

Just one answer for all your question...

Still no info about that

Jokes aside, You could buy it (when it comes out supposely near fall) in every gaming shop you normally buy RPGs books.

The number of pages per book is still unknown, the one you see in the photos seems to be just placeholders, justy to show what they'll look like... still no clue if they'll be softback or hardback.

About the demo adventure I don't really know what to answer... FFG has done it for every product they directly created (RPG speaking) so I would say yes, but considering the nature of the edition (cards, custon dices etc) I would say no... so... Maybe

FFG said the Adventurer's Toolkit should come out together with the main box.

For more pics I think you can look around the web and I also think in some weeks (starting from August 19, when FFG will be back home) we'll see more official pics and infos...

Hope I've been of any help ^^

DagoabahDave,

thanks for your exceptionally hackneyed answers.

I wonder if the rules in WH 3rd are written with the some seamy flavour.

DagobahDave said:

One of the selling points FF keeps on about is the "WFRGP 3rd Ed is more narrative" than 2nd Ed. It's narration kind of the job of the GM? I try very hard in my games to descriptive of combat and the environment. For example, “You hack deeply in to the orc’s arm, cutting muscle and sinew. With a gut wrenching howl the orc drops his rusty choppa and steaming green blood sprays from the deep gash in his arm.” That sound better than “You did 13 point of damage… you got a crit causing 2 fatigue points and the orc drops what ever weapon he was carrying.” Is this “narration” a crutch for the GM?

Also, from what others have said, the narration” might be a form of dice driven interaction between party members? If so that kind of takes away from the RPG aspect of the game.

DeathFromAbove said:

I'll remember that the next time you ask a question, sweetheart.

John Tansen said:

I personally think that by saying "more narrative oriented" means exactly trying to reduce to the minimum the numbered values in game, in order to let the GM and the players focus on the actual actions, rather than theyr number value output or mods...

This is just my way of seeing it, and I really hope FFG has done the same idea process

I don't know it just seems that FFG said that this is a major selling point of the new edition with little info on it... guess we'll just have to wait and see if it's good or bad.

I am beginning to have a more positive attitude towards this game. Especially after reading the thread that explains what the game aids are for- that sounded neat.

What will sell this game to me is going to be whether or not it will have a "scope". What I mean with a scope is the old phrase "(whatever) is beyond the scope of the game". Many different things were beyond the scope of the 2nd. edition for no apparent ingame reason. It was a divide created out of necessity because the mechanics in 2nd. ed didn't incorporate them, and therefore a purely artificial divide that only served to strain the suspension of disbelief. For example Imperial Great Cannons was at first deemed to be beyond the scope of the game (it took them 20+ books before releasing some rules), just as battle wizards was beyond the scope of the game, although one of the careers in the Core book was "Wizard Lord", which was described as one of the mightiest beings in the Empire, who should logically therefore be above the battle wizards in status and power level. There are other examples (Dhar, high magic being some of them) that was, for no other than a mechanical reason considered beyond the scope of the game. For example, if Elves where almost immune to the mutating force of magic (as per the background), why then, do they suffer from the same perils as everyone else who practices magic? Or the Dark Elf wizard, who unlike the setting, suddenly grows a third arm because of the Curse of Tzeentch?

That was really annoying to me, because it caused me a lot problems when I for example had to explain why a battle wizard was beyond the scope of the game to the player who was about to enter the battle wizards "big brother career", the Wizard Lord. It made no sense, and it wasn't based on anything in the setting or background. It was purely because the game mechanics couldn't support a game with such a large scope or such a big power level (eg. Great Cannons, High/Dark Magic or Battle Wizards etc.). Which also hindered which stories I could be able to tell in the Warhammer world. Completely dirty, gritty stories in the backwater towns of the Empire- no problem. Battling Daemons/Orcs/Skaven/Vampires/Dark Elves Felix and Gotrek-style - not going to happen, basically it was beyond the scope of the game, which could annoy me, when I was feeling up for one of those campaigns.

Therefore I am looking forward to see if the new edition has any sort of scope, or if the sky is the limit. I am thinking that the new edition at least has a larger scope, since you for example can play a High Elven Swordmaster- just to be able to play a High Elf and a Swordmaster is to introduce a larger/wider scope. Maybe it could be possible to pit the players against Dark Elves, Chaos Dwarfs or Lizardmen from the get go and still be within the scope of the game mechanics and not resorting to any Home Brew rules.

It excites me that I might be able to play somewhere else than the Empire or the Old World. It seems that it is perhaps more feasible to place a game somewhere else in the Warhammer World without straying away from the official setting in WFRP 3. I still think WFRP 2 was awesome when it was released. You could forgive its shortcomings, or it's inability to support certain styles of game, because at least it was being produced, and you would hope for the release of books that would broaden the scope- like Race Sourcebooks that would enable the GM to play in Ulthuan or in Karaz-a-Karak or whereever. But as time went on none of these books were released, and the scope wasn't really broaden in any significant way. Therefore I am truly hoping that WFRP 3 will rectify this and hopefully enable me to play any kind of style I want- from the gritty ratcatchers tale to the companions of Sigmar/Valten without breaking the frame and scope of the game. I truly hope Jay Little and his team was hoping to satisfy both styles of game when they decided to scrap 2nd. ed and start from scratch on WFRP 3.

While the game itself is not my cup of tea - it will be very interesting to see how it turns out. I'd love to see more 2nd edition stuff, but I guess it will just end up being so niche or something GW won't allow others to explore anyway, so I guess something new and fresh was needed anyway. Can't wait to see more details, like how xp, customization of characters and such are done.

Does anyone think that the "narrative dice" might be similar to the Event Deck or the Environmental Travel Hazards in Warhammer Quest?

They were great bonus ideas for encounters in between quests. Instead of "the heroes travel for three days across the huge forest before arriving back in town" they could bump into a whole whack of interesting events, like encountering gypsies or a village under attack or the chance to escort some merchant who MIGHT reward them...

Necrozius said:

Could be that or a random complications generator. Really, there is little practical difference between rolling a die and consulting a chart/rolling special die/drawing from a deck of special cards.