I'm sure to open a can of worms here, but looking back through some secrecy posts I came across this:

Any form of communication besides verbal and in the presence of all players is in violation of the game spirit.

I have to agree with the spirit of the above but not the letter.

It seems to me that secrecy rules have two effects: 1) prevent players from absolutely knowing whether or not a person is human or cylon and 2) prevent players from automatically defeating crises, skill checks, etc.

Now, their is alot of body and verbal language in this game. Technically, a person can say they can add "alot" to a skill check. If they say it definitively, then it's reasonable to assume they can beat it on their own. Likewise, humans can ponder things and ask for certain help such as "If I XO you, do you have any max firepower cards?" A revealed cylon could tell another, openly, "hey, on your turn play your super crisis and then I'll do a fleet activation."

This brings me to what I disagree with. I agree that any non-open communication should be banned. This includes note-passing, texting, playing footsie or even codewords. However, I think non-verbal communication that can be recognized by someone paying attention should be allowed. For example, in a recent game, I was an unrevealed cylon. The revealed cylon was about to play their super crisis card at a bad time (one away from a jump). I tried to catch her eye and shook my head slightly. If anyone had seen it, they would've known I was a cylon. Likewise, in another game, I looked across at the guy I thought was a cylon and nodded to him knowingly to see if he would nod back, revealing to me he was a cylon (I was human but wound up a cylon). To me this is the same thing as openly accusing someone ("he played a basestar, he's a cylon!"). BTW, I'm a tricky bastard.

In addition, once Cylons are revealed they are no longer on Galactica. They should be allowed to discuss strategy in secret as long as they don't violate the secrecies rules (per number 2 above). The humans still cannot, IMO, because even if ALL Cylons are revealed, the actual characters don't know that (just the gamers). Likewise, I need convincing that an unrevealed Cylon can't indicate (in some potentially noticable manner) to a revealed Cylon who they are. For one, I could see using that tactic to convince a revealed Cylon not to something because I was, in fact, human.

I think eye contact, looks, etc are fine, but I don't agree that Cylons should be allowed to talk in secret. Just like the Cylons get to hear what the Humans are thinking, the Humans get to hear the Cylons. This actually create some pretty fun situations, like outright lying to your partner, hoping they get that you are just trying to throw the other team off. Like letting humans catch you telling each other you don't have good cards to wreck this check so they go low.

I have to agree, I don't think that would be very fair at all for one side to get total information while the other does not. I would keep all communication (verbal or not) at the table and out in the open where people have a possiblity to catch on if they are observant.

bioball said:

Well, everyone would disagree with the transmission total information. But it's very difficult to communicate total information without breaking the secrecy rules.

I mean, imagine that I somehow covertly tell a revealed cylon that I'm the other unrevealed cylon. He then does his best to avoid picking me with the Human Fleet action, etc. If I did this by revealing a loyalty card, giving him total information, I broke the rules. If I did otherwise, it is not total information, I could be lying.

Even still, it may be unfair to communicate without the awareness of other players.

My look is that as long as no matter what your not outright talking about what super crisis you have, hints or suggestions that basically are the same as saying I have this card, you can say what ever you want.

You can do what ever you want as long as you don't say skill check numbers. Even if its code that everyone knows its still better then saying one or two. because a low amount could one OR two.

I also agree that people can talk or communicate in any way they wish as long as other people can see it. I.e. passing a note doesn't work cuz not everyone sees it, but saying "i'm ready when you are!" everyone can see.

Sorthlador said:

I totally agree. But I'm not against if cylons or humans plan their next action in secret if all cylons are revealed. Sure, it slows the game and could be boring for the other team but sometimes it's essential. (mostly for the humans) I do also eye-contact most of the time. Like poker you have to fake your mimics, bluff and study your pal by looking him/her waiting for a response and then analyse this response. It is fun if you know your playing group well.

I don't like the idea humans and cylons talking secretly amongst themselves.

1) It seems against the intent of the rules. You get to transfer specific knowledge to other players without the possibility of interception. Giving someone a 'look' is one thing, because it's quite vague, could be a lie of some sort, and doesn't give any specific information. BSG doesn't seem like you should be able to give this kind of information out, at least not without telling EVERYONE.

2) It's changes incentives for revealing or not if you limit it to only when all cylons are revealed. I don't know what behavior it will promote, but very possibly odd ones that are not fun.

3) It makes it hard to enforce secrecy rules and prevent cheating.

With talking secretly I meant: What to do in next turn. Jumping early or fight. For example, In our last game, I knew we had a lot of population, so I told the other humans to do early jumps twice(we required that much to win). That was nothing specific. If cylons heard that, they would focus our population or ftl drive. Of course if u r against experienced and smart players, there is no difference between saying the plan openly or secretly. But sometimes it is best not telling the other group. Of course talking excludes specific card informations and anything that is illegal. But, u r right about one thing, the other team cannot control if u r cheating or not. For our group it is not a problem. For us, cheating is a mood killer for both the other team and the cheater.

Another situation: In our last game, My sister wanted to look the destination card via launch scout and I was the admiral. We both knew we were human (all cylons were revealed). I knew she could not tell me what the destiny card was. So I explained her before she looked the card that if it is a card with 2 distance and -1 fuel to keep it and otherwise discard. I think that is not against the secrecy rules. She's not giving me specific information. She has the choice of not doing what I've said and I don't know if she obeyed my order or not. What is your opinion about that?

Makron: I think it has to do with being able to verify cheating. Your playgroup is all very honourable I'm sure, but it can be somewhat unfair to the other team if you pass a secret message; after all, they might avoid speaking secretly to show that they aren't cheating, putting you and your team at an advantage.

Of course, as long as you have fun, it shouldn't matter.

For talking about what to do, I find it's best to just wait to say anything when you know who the cylon is. Why talk about manually jumping before you can do it? Maybe you'll 'waste' some actions if other humans aren't expecting it, but it's probably better to have cylons wasting actions. By wasting I mean futile, as the early jumping negates any possible benefit later.

This works great for skill checks. If the cylon is early in the card throw, don't say anything about it until after he goes. Then you can decide how you want to play it, and any humans that threw in can say how much they helped.

I do have a problem with the scenario you suggest with all revealed cylons and you telling your sister secretly to dump the destination unless its card X. The reason I have the problem is that you have transferred information without the possibility of the cylons knowing. Her keeping the card or not means very different things to you than the cylons. The reason I have a problem with it is that you're suggesting we only allow secret communication after everyone is revealed. So, before all the cylons are revealed there is no way for this kind of information to be transferred. I don't like this extra player ability popping up in the middle of the game at a point determined by the last revealing cylon.

It will probably encourage the cylons to reveal earlier so that they can talk secretly together. Encouraging cylons to reveal early is probably bad for the game.

The new errata has a whole page to settle Secrecy Debate questions.

After reading Sinis' and tinmonkey's posts, I thought again and come to this conclusion: In our games with my playgroup we actually don't disobey the hardcore rules. However, eye-contact and secret talking or planning are actually not fair even if no specific information is given. It belongs perhaps to a role playing game. This is technically a roleplaying game. And I am a little bit "controller" type, giving orders everyone and waiting them to obey in order to win. Because the cylons had so many victories in our games, perhaps I wanted the humans win so badly. So, it is perhaps the best not to allowing players to plan secretly, or even give detailed orders.

All of these were never a problem for our playgroup. Our games are in terms of Cylons-Humans are balanced (Cylons win 3 times more than humans but humans are often very close and I think it is meant to be like that ) No player ever argued that it is not fair to planning secretly or order another player ( of course everyone is free to make their one choices, but sometimes free-choices end up in brig )

As a conclusion, even my playgroup has no problems with our games, I will not allow secret planning and detailed orders, just to be fair to the other team and to be fair to low-experienced or not-strategist typ players. But eye-contact and any in-game mimics and messaging will be allowed because it is fun and we also like role playing games.

All of these are for my playgroup. I think everyone should play how they like it. This game allows different people to play it differently. Even if u bend the rules a little, the game stays balanced and most importantly, fun!, which is our aim, isn't it?