So a friend of mine and me love playing Battlelore, or at least we DID. We have several strategy games that we play during our lunch break at work. We've been playing these for some time so we really get to see all the good things and bad things about the games we play.

For Battlelore we initially loved it, just had the base game and played it often because of the cool miniatures and quick pick up of the gameplay. Eventually we branched out and got CtA thinking it would make this good game even better.

Unfortunately, we started to see a trend that makes us not want to spend the time to play this game. These trends are:

1) Set up time: My GOSH this game takes forever and a day to setup! If you have to remove the game from the box and get all the pieces out it takes literally and hour before your ready to take your first turn if you use CtA rules. Even when we have the game out it can take a half an hour to get a scenario, go through the CtA and get the pieces on the board and cards dealt. Its just a bit much and we tend to lose heart before the game has even started....this isn't the biggest issue however because once the game starts we find ourselves loving it again, at least for the first couple turns...

2)Cards, Dice, what is the problem?: We are both equally good at this game, or at least close. Either one of us can win but there is always that point where a crucial decision can make or break the game. the problem we are having though, is that that decision seems out of your control in the end. For instance, i was taking my time to move my units in formation and get them forward a bit to make a large push with a 2 in each section CC and a Mists of Terror Cleric card (we both went level 3 cleric). I finally decided it was the right time to make my move and so i do so, using three cavalry, a red foot and two archers to attack (he had a lone red mounted in my backfield that i was hoping the archers could get). I went to his front lines and hoped to get a flag or two that would allow my Mists of Terror card to come into effect. Well, i didnt....not a single one. Couldn't do any follow on actions and besides that i didn't do that much damage (though i did kill a few guys). His next turn he plays a Counter Attack (which he had already played one) with a Bless card (which allows him to ad +1 to three units). He comes to my guys up on his front lines and absolutely destroys them getting 4 VP's in one turn when i the turn before got only 1 and barely did any other damage! Now, im still in the game as we are playing to 7VP's though im now down 1 VP to his 5VP's. The next turn i play a blue banners and figure i can try to take a couple more units, well, he plays a mass shield and blocks everything i get. So i got 0 hits and 0 flags that turn. That allows him to simply steam roll me the rest of the game since he outnumbered me so badly.

The point is, it just seems as though this happens ever game, to either him or me. Its not even the fact that it happened to me this game, because it could easily happen to him the next. I took a risk in jumping a few guys out of formation, but at some point you have too, and i figured that i had the best card to do that with my mists of terror. But, he had the perfect counter and it worked for him when it didn't for me. It just seems like the lore card system is a bit broken as in it lends so much to randomness of what cards you have and if you get a little luck when you play them.

Can anyone help us? Was i simply too aggressive in that game? I feel i wasn't because in my mind someone has to come out of formation at some point to do some attacking otherwise it will be a stailmate. It just seems that even when you make a "good" calculated decision that you are still just hoping that it goes well and it could possibly go abosuletly nowhere in which case you are pretty much screwed next turn.

Murfenator said:

I don't know how helpful this is, but yes you were too aggressive - not on the initial push, which coupled with Mists of Terror seemed a good tactic (though keep in mind, depending upon which units you are attacking with, Mists of Terror can still be a bit of a gamble - only ~40% of a flag on 3d, ~50% on 4d - I really try to save that card for playing with Mounted Charge). But when Mass Shield hits the table, usually best to pull back and steel oneself for the next turn rather than attack and suffer the likely battle backs, followed by the opponent's next turn. This is typically where the game is lost, when one side mounts an unsuccessful offensive and then the other side follows up its battle backs with a strong offensive play themselves.

If two players of near equal experience in the game play, often it will come down to (or seem to come down to) who gets the most "breaks". But really, I would say the player who has the best back-up plan for when things go wrong, or even better yet factors that contingency into the plan, is the one who consistently comes out on top.

Yeah, what I'm basically hearing you say is that in a game with a high random component (dice + 2 types of cards) the winned between two players of equal skill comes down to luck, right? Seems to me that's just what I would expect would happen.

I believe that part of the design theory of this game is "what do you do with randomness and unpredictable moments?" This is a game about doing the best with what you're given. Sometimes what you're given is lemons through and through-- the scenario design may be stacked against you, your opponenet may have gotten exactly the right cards while you have a handful of nothing. But a better player will still be able to turn a weaker set-up or hand into a winning game.

Now, that may not be the sort of game you like to play. But for me its part of what attracts me to the game.

Yea, that sounds about right. Because we have played the game quite a bit we have both narrowed in on the best way to play, most of the time anyway. So, alot of our games do come down to some luck one way or another. Im gonna try again and try being super conservative and trying to keep my guys in formation as long as possible. I'll get back to this thread after our next game and explain how it went. I just know that the last three or four games have ended something like 7VP's to 2VP's or basically a blowout. Because we are pretty equal skill i would expect this to be closer, but it hasn't and that makes me think that luck does play a rather large role in this game.

I know it can be frustrating when luck seems to take over...but in some ways that contributes to the "story" effect that Battlelore tends to produce. For instance last week playing my wife ( who is my main Battlelore opponent and loves the game) I was up 5-1 in a VC 6 game and she stormed back via luck to win it. I love the way the tide of the battle can change. For me I am just wanting to have a good time and knowing the game is never over until the fat dwarf sings is great!

Lothiam said:

This is why I hope we get a really cool campaign system, especially one that helps track those sort of story events.

That would be pretty sweet, something that keeps the simplicity of Battlelore whie increasing it's replayability.