Actually, that scenario can be represented in game as well:

Blackbelt uses Defensive fighting (-20% ws to opponents) & the combat master talent (no bonuses for outnumbering), any hits they may land (remember, average skilled human combatant only has a 30% ws), he can parry, and even counter attack (a blackbelt and the years of training it takes would easily have a higher ws, possibly as good as 50%, assuming he's at the pinacle of his martial arts training). If the attackers are unarmed, even above average combatants would be nearly unable to land a hit (remember that unarmed attacks net you a -20% to hit against an armed opponent). The attackers can all out attack if they want, to try to make up for the defensive fighting penalty, but they still will have trouble hitting, and if he parries and counterattacks, will have no ability to dodge or parry themselves. If the attackers get lucky, and all hit, well that is simply a statistical aberration, and such luck can happen to even the most skilled opponents.

Varnias Tybalt said:

Not that I'm a martial arts guy, but you're talking about a formal setting, with a style with formally prescribed rules, with unarmed people.

If black belt guy gets jumped in an alley on all sides by 5 or 6 guys with baseball bats, I bet you he's going down.

bogi_khaosa said:

Yes, the latter example is very true. But there is a common misconception of sparring and formal settings. Yes a normal match in karate has certain rules, regulations and formalities, however when sparring and in the kind of manner I described it is just as hard to predict what sort of kicks, punches and throws that might be directed your way. It is no understatement when I said that the blackbelt said: "come at me in any way you like". And karate being a bit more versatile fighting sytem than, boxing for example, makes this a bit more closer to reality. (in boxing you usually won't have to worry about being hit in the groin, but karate does include groin kicks)

Of course he was ready for it, and that helps a lot. Or rather it pretty much determines whether you'll be able to draw upon the fighting skills you've learned or not. And most of the time in real life you're not gonna be expecting to get attacked (in my experience making sure you land the first blow or cut is usually what decides whether you'll be the one walking away from the fight instead of being the one lying on the ground). But then we have to take into account the situations that melee combat happen in Dark Heresy. Usually the major villians have a heads-up when the acolytes are near and climactic battles are to occur, meaning that they could be considered just as prepared for a fight like the blackbelt in my example was.

Varnias Tybalt said:

But for outnumbering the bonuses can get very high, but this is where the "combat master" talent comes in and stops you counting as outnumbered...

So you can represent this ability to hold off multiple opponents in-game. As to wether you should be able to parry each one or not is a separate argument. If in-game you are surrounded by a host of grunts then by all means you wouldnt expect them to hit you that often so your defensive actions should keep you safe. If on the other hand you got jumped by 3 close combat experts your probably going to want to go into defensive stance and wait for someone to come an rescue you...

S.K.

YMMV but a popular house rule, is to allow PC's another parry (or even dodge) by spending a half action.

The errata for dual strike allows the successful Parry (or Dodge) skill test to avoid both blows.

Why not allow the Parry skill test to parry all attacks made by the individual attacker that round? Be it 2 attacks with dual strike or swift attack or 4 attacks if the attacker has the two weapon wielder (melee) and lightning attack talents. You cannot combine dual strike with lightning attacks. You only get one parry (without the wall of steel talent) each round and its function is to save your bacon. Your character is concentrating all his efforts to whatever the attacker is throwing at him, and as an abstraction, one successful parry role gets you through to next round unscathed. If all 4 blows hit, then its a really important parry role!

The wall of steel talent allows you to parry twice in the round, effectively meaning you can parry against another attacker and their attack(s) for that round.

Although I do understand that that solution above is not RAW. That both Dual talents are the exception to the rule allowing one Dodge roll to evade both attacks. I suggest it as a solution for the OP who believes that its always easier to parry a blow than to make one. This way there are no additional dice rolls. No additional talents to get. It simply allows the defender to parry (or dodge) all the attacks from one attacker. To dodge from more than one attacker, the defender would need a talent to get another parry or dodge (which are already written). If the mathematical assumption is that an attacker with 4 or 5 attacks only gets 2 or 3 of them to hit (unless lucky), I don't think this overpowers parry (or dodge). Plus everyone can do it... so everyone is more likely to avoid an attack equally across the board.

I've been lurking around the forums here for a few weeks now, and figured it was about time I registered and said hello. So Hi all!

Anyway, just wanted to add my two cents to the debate. In my DH group we simply made the Talent Swift Attack work the way semi auto does for ballistics and Lightning Attack work the way Full Auto does. When you Swift attack you take a full action and for every 2 degrees of success you make an extra hit (1 degree for Lightning Attack). This balances things out nicely for us, especially since you can negate those extra hits by making subsequent degrees of success with your Parry/Dodge skill.

A good roll with a full-auto weapon with maximal bonuses could make it impossible to dodge for someone with an equal agility. For example, BS 40 with full auto bonus, full aim and point blank range, yields at most 4 hits while Ag 40 dodge will protect against at most 3 hits. So it works as an example, even though in the extreme case dodge wins out because you can take mastery, allowing your maximum number of degrees of success to outstrip the maximum number of hits a full-auto weapon could produce.

Umm, I'll point out at 40 BS, at pb-range(+30), full-auto(+20), yields a 90% chance to hit. A roll of under 10% means that 9 bullets hit (1 for hitting, plus 1 for every degree of success, 8 degrees = 9 hits). An Agi (40%) dodge roll under 10% gives 4 total dodges(1 for success, plus 1 per degree of success, 3 degrees, = 5 dodged). That's 4 hits (9-5=4) that aren't/can't be dodged. Dodge will rarely overtake full-auto unless fired from outside of short range (but even then they get the +20 for firing full-auto so have an advantage).

Personally, if you think melee combat is 'unrealistic' or favors hitting too much, you should probably just make each melee attack an opposed WS test. If you succeed, and your opponent fails or doesn't roll as many successes, you hit. If you fail, or your opponent has more successes, you fail to hit. Give a WS penalty for each opponent in melee with you, and have the Wall Of Steel talent negate the penalty for facing multiple enemies (instead of giving multiple parries, since you basically get a chance to parry every melee attack).

Me, I think the current rules work.