Hi,

Im playing an imperial psyker and Im planning to take Divine Shot as my next power. I have some questions about how it works. Reading the description I think that most is pretty clear: you hit the target, there is no dodge and you just roll for the damage, right? But what about the hit location? Do you need to roll for it or can you just aim at the desired location and get a hit there?

I would say (and this is the way my group plays it) is that you can hit any desired location you choose as long as you can see it. So for example if the targets head doesn't have armour then you could choose to hit there, but if the head was behind cover i would say that you couldn't hit it without penetrating the cover as usual.

Since you can make any shot you want, you could easily make a called shot to a hit location.

I agree with cifer and darkstar952. I'd even think that you could not only do called shots to usual locations (for example the head), but to even smaller targets such as his right eye. With the next shot you hit his left eye, then he is blind

Does manifesting the Divine Shot power actually result in a shot being fired or is it supposed to be used in conjunction with a ranged attack action?

If it is supposed to be used in conjunction, given the erratum that manifesting a phychic power counts as a standard attack action, how is a character supposed to fire off a single divine shot?

Lastly, does the power completely ignore range in terms of the effectiveness of the weapon used? For example, if a character had a bolt pistol and a pair of magnoculars could they auto-hit a target 1km away? A automatic hit through the left pupil at 120m would seem good enough...

I agree with cifer and darkstar952. I'd even think that you could not only do called shots to usual locations (for example the head), but to even smaller targets such as his right eye. With the next shot you hit his left eye, then he is blind

Er... no. Just no .

Does manifesting the Divine Shot power actually result in a shot being fired or is it supposed to be used in conjunction with a ranged attack action?

Considering manifesting Divine Shot is a free action, I don't think the shot should be included.

If it is supposed to be used in conjunction, given the erratum that manifesting a phychic power counts as a standard attack action, how is a character supposed to fire off a single divine shot?

At that point we get into a funny discussion we only had about seven times on this forum - the question whether the power is also considered a half action for purposes of action limitations. If it remains a free action for that purpose, it's irrelevant because the rules only state that you can't combine two half actions of the same type.

Should you choose to view all psyker powers as counting as half actions for that rule (based on the standard attack action being one), you'd wait for the next round, just like you can do with Precognitive Strike, Unnatural Aim and Lucky.

Lastly, does the power completely ignore range in terms of the effectiveness of the weapon used? For example, if a character had a bolt pistol and a pair of magnoculars could they auto-hit a target 1km away? A automatic hit through the left pupil at 120m would seem good enough...

The power comes from the divination school. It doesn't do anything except pointing out the way to shoot which would hit the target. If there is no such way (target completely behind cover, target out of range), it can't help you with that - though you could easily shoot stuff at the weapon's Extreme range.

Khouri said:

Can the weapon get its shots travelling that far ?

Does the round still have much power behind it at that range ?

For example lets take SP weapons: Friction with the air slows the bullet, reducing its speed (and thus damage) over long ranges. Gravity pulls the bullet down.

Las weapons: The air would absorb energy from the shot, meaning there is less energy that makes it to the target. Also, even in a vacuum, the beam would expand over distance, doing less damage as it spreads the energy over a larger area (especially if the beam is wider than the target).

If the physics behind the weapon don't let it reach the target, your ability to aim doesn't matter.

Bilateralrope said:

Yes on all accounts. The physiscs behind the weapons will let you fire and hit a target at extreme range but, yes, beyond that, the projectile would simply fissile out or be too unpredictable to account for with this power..."future uncertain, please come back latter".

Extreme range is the utmost maximum that the weapon can be used at and still be somewhat counted on. Since you can actually fire a shot at extreme range without any psyker powers without it losing any of it's power (assuming you hit), then knowing right when to pull the trigger to make the bullet hit were you envisioned it would with psychic powers wouldn't downgrade the damage any at all. Weapons can't "fire" beyond extreme range not because the bullets are incapable of traveling that far (they are) but because after extreme range said weapon is simply too inaccurate to hit what you're hopping to hit and the bullet will end up in some pregnant woman or some dude who was minding his own business reading the bible and not selling drugs at 3 am on someone else's porch (all random uncalled for shots seem to hit tis poor guy who's just trying to be a good boy at 3 in the morning).

If fired by a precog, it will be far more accurate, but firing beyond extreme in my book would be next to impossible because the projectile would have to travel farther then you can rightfully see or hold the weapon steady enough to guide the beam/bullet onto a target. While being a precog will tell you right when you should fire a bullet for it to it it's target, there has to be a point were no matter if you pull that trigger at just the right time holding the gun in just the right way, it still misses because your hand shook in a way you didn't even detect and, as such, you were holding it .012% of a degree off when you fired and the shot went wide. Beyond extreme range, that is the kind of inaccuracy that would mess up your shot. Beyond extreme range, all your precog power will come back as is "you miss, you miss, you can't hold your hand steady enough so you miss again, your still missing, you miss..."

Cifer said:

The way I read it, Divine Shot remains a free action but in manifesting the power the character uses up their available Standard Attack Action for the turn. Therefore, the character can use Divine Shot and then shoot with a Semi/Full-Auto Burst but cannot make another Standard Attack that turn. While you could rule Divine Shot to use a similar clause to Unnatural Aim and Precognitive Strike that still does not resolve the issue that a character can use a Full-Auto Burst in the same turn that the power is manifested but not fire off a single shot.

Cifer said:

That sounds a fair interpretation.

Am I the only one who thinks that the rules are crystal clear on Psychic Power and Half-Actions? Manifest Power Actions count as Standard Attack Actions. However, the rule that you can only take a given type of action once per round very clearly only applies to half-actions (page188, DH). Likewise, it is clearly stated that Free Actions "may be taken in addition to any other Actions you make in a turn" (same page). The action type of a Manifest Power action varies according to the power manifested.

So, if Butch Cassidy manifests Lucky, he cannot make a standard attack action, because his Manifest Power Action was a half-action that counts as a Standard Attack Action, triggering the rule that only one Half-Action of a given type may be made by a character in a single round.

However, if Butch Cassidy manifests Divine Shot, he may still make a Standard Attack, because even though his Manifest Power action was equivalent to a Standard Attack Action, the "only one of each" rule does not apply to Free Actions. He therefore makes one Standard Attack Free Action and one Standard Attack Half Action .

This is why the erratta specifies that ""a psyker who uses a Half Action power cannot make another Half Action Standard Attack on the same round." Half Actions and only Half-Actions are exclusive in this way.

Additionally, there is absolutely nothing stopping a character from using a Manifest Power Action Free Action and then using an Attack Full Action. Characters may not make a half-action and a full action in the same round, but once again, the Manifest Power Action, although equivalent to a Standard Attack, was not a half action.

Independent of all this, the erratta clearly states that only one Power may be manifested per round, with the exception of Resist Possession.

As for Divine Shot, you can rule either way. It's a Free Action, which would make it an extra attack each round in which it is manifested. However, it would be at most once per turn, because only one power may be manifested per round. The strictest possible reading of the rules allows this. However, it would be reasonable to infer that the "single shot" refered to is a seperate action.

Hodgepodge said:

So what you're saying is, because the Focus Power Action may not necessarily be a Half Action (e.g. Distort Vision & Divine Shot), even though the Focus Power Action counts as a Standard Attack Action it is still possible to make two Standard Attacks in a round (Divine Shot, Single Shot) as only one is in fact a half Action and subject to the restriction on p. 188.

That would overcome the absurdity that a single shot cannot be fired while using a Free Action power but a Full-Auto burst or a Charge is fair game.

Exactly. There's nothing special about Standard Attack and their equivalents that means that you can't make more than one per round. However, if they are half-actions, they fall under the one per round rule. This seems to be what the designers meant when they wrote the erratta the way they did.

I'm not sure what they intended for Divine Shot. I'd probably house-rule it to require a seperate attack action to fire, but only if players started to use it to fire two Multi-Meltas per round or something silly like that.

Solid thread necro incoming.

Question about Divine Shot and Accurate: how many degrees of success would you say a divine shot grants? The power says nothing about this. Is it equal to rolling 01? Just enough to hit? Roll in addition?

Given the description of the power I would be inclined to say the hit counts as rolling 01 if it's necessary to determine degrees of success. This is mostly inspired by "Indomitable Will of the Inquisitor" (p. 94, Ascension) and other Ascended Traits which describe the same type of power/ability. "Automatically pass one Willpower Test" vs "...automatically hit any one target you can see regardless of Range".

Thoughts?

Nihilius said:

Read the power. Only 1 shot automatically hits. Does it say it hits as if you rolled a 01? Does it say you get X degrees of success? No? Then the divine shot hits (even called shots) with juuuuuuust sufficient accuracy to undodgeably hit the target. The requirement for Semi- and full-auto fire to roll a separate test to determine extra shots (read: the divine shot's degrees of success, or lack thereof) seems to imply just that.

(Sorry if I sound snarky, but I lost my first, kinder, longer response - no time, gotta get to work!)

I think I would handle it one of two ways. The first is to make the BS test and count any degrees of success where it matters (auto-fire, accurate etc).

The second, perhaps more in keeping with the power, would be to treat weapons with the accurate trait as a special case. Rather than depending on the results of a BS test, give the power an overbleed effect that generates degrees of success. That way better use of this power allows the character to not only hit an extremely difficult target but factor in the exact means in which to do the most damage.

Unusualsuspect said:

Eh, the bolded is really something you read into the power yourself; I don't think there's anything in the wording that says "just good enough" is more likely than "perfect hit".

I like Khouri's solution actually. I sent the question over to FFG's rules support to see what they have to say, I'll quote the answer here when I get it.

Snarky, takes more than that before I bother to see it as snarky And this board can drive anyone crazy...

Seeing you get no automatic additional hits for automatic fire purposes, I consider it highly doubtful you'd be granted a 01. Further, that would also partially weaken the power: As of right now, Divine Shot grants you a hit even if it's numerically impossible . Neither rain nor snow nor fatigue nor darkness nor anything else can deny you that hit (excepting Nulls, obviously) even if your BS sinks below zero for the shot. If it's physically possible to hit, Divine Shot will hit.
If you take Divine Shot to mean you rolled a 01 on the attack roll, well...

Yeah good point Cifer.

Mack answered lightning-fast, here's what he wrote:
"Hi,
I just wanted to take a moment to clear up Divine Shot and the Accurate quality. The intent is that the psyker hit with no additional degrees of success. This would mean that there is no additional damage dealt. The Ascended characters have access to more powerful versions (as noted in the "counts as 01").

Hopefully this helps!"

So that clears that up!

Nihilius said:

Cheers Nihilius (and Mack).

Does anyone know if there are plans to collect these questions and answers and put them in a sticky post or add them to the errata document?

Does anyone know if there are plans to collect these questions and answers and put them in a sticky post or add them to the errata document?

Yeah... it seems like the latter is not going to happen, at least not from FFG's side any time soon. I recently asked Mack, and...

The errata file for Dark Heresy certainly could use some updating. It's frankly a matter of time. It requires quite a bit of work for me to compile the email questions and read through the books again myself to see if I can catch everything. I am currently working hard to get Blood of Martyrs and Daemon Hunter out the door, so that limits the time I have to work on the Errata. It's a matter of time management at this point. Is it more important for the game line to produce new books and keep up with demand for new content, or to shore up the content of previous books.

Roleplaying game design has the benefit of a rules judge at every table. The GM can fix issues that they encounter in their game on the fly, making judgement calls. While this is most acceptable (actually preferable) when it comes to character personalities and the story line (the GM can twist and work things in the name of fun which is great) it also allows for mechanical "iffy bits" to be handled. It isn't ideal, this is not to say errata isn't necessary or shouldn't be done. It does, however, mean that when faced with a choice between errata and new content I will prefer new content.

There are quite a few bits for me to update and Errata is something I've certainly been mulling over a lot lately. If you have some specific questions you feel need to be addressed please feel free to send me an email so I can take a look at them for my issue compiling process!

Nihilius said:

I like Khouri's solution as well.

As for the bolded part... that's all the power does, text-wise. When the power describes what it does, it is very explicit multiple times that damage is variable, effect is variable, ancillary shots are variable, basically, that the quality of the shot isn't guaranteed perfect. The only thing sure is, well, that one hit.

Perfect shots, in my humble opinion, are the shots that sneak through that single bullet-sized hole of penetrable material to pierce/burst/explode/atomize a minimum of 3 organs and/or structural keystones in alphabetical order. Divine shots, on the other hand, are the bullets that ricochet off no less than 3 surfaces (in reverse alphabetically order, righting the sacred and damaging the profane along the way) and manage to donkeypunch the BBEG mid coup de gras.

Unusualsuspect said: