To match the M2 in range it would have to be 450m (i.e. 1.8km maximum effective range) so anyone wanting to make it more realisic should probably up the range to that and probably make it d10+5 damage. That would solve most complaints about the weapon not having enough power I think.

If you want another weapon with the SAW role here is what I would recomend assuming you changed the Heavy Stubber. Note that it needs a proper 40k name but I cant think of one atm.

The SAW is and underused concept in the Imperial Guard with most regiments not seeing the need for a weapon that puts out comparible damage to a las gun when there is the reliable Heavy Stubber that provides much more punch. A few regiments that emphisise mobility and squad level operations though find them invaluable for the increased firepower they provide. Although not a common sight outside of the Imperial Guard they are occationally picked up by underhive gangs where thier massive rate of fire combined with thier accuracy make them a deadly proposition for those gangs that rely on the more conventional heavy stubber that requires time to set up. More than a few gangs have met thier grisly end after being ambushed by the SAW.

Name Type Range RoF Dam Pen Clip Rld Wt Special

SAW Heavy 120m S/-/15 d10+4 0 200 2full 8.5kg Suppressive Weapon, Manstopper

Suppressive Weapon: The rate of fire of the SAW makes it very useful as a suppressive weapon combined with the accuracy when using Suppressive fire the SAW gains an additional hit for each degree of success rather than 2 degrees of success.

Manstopper: Because the SAW uses normal rifle ammunition manstopper rounds may be used with this weapon

Kaihlik

Kaihlik said:

I would agree about the range, but if you want realistic ranges for this weapon you should make it for the rest as well. A huntig rifle, the closest thing we got to a sniper rifle, only has 150m base range, so the Heavy stubber should have the same or both be changed.

Your SAW (light stubber?) is not really compatible with other DH weapons. The RoF is nonstandard and realistically autopistols and some autoguns could have the same rate. The damage is higher for no reason as you say it fires standard autogun ammunition - the ability of the real SAW is not more damage but the ability to put out more lead and thereby kill despite lacking stopping power compared to 7.62 or heavier weapons.

The special rules sounds unnecessary. You¨'re not going to get additional hits often at -20 (even though with these rules there is at least a chance). Instead of the Manstopper "quality" you might as well just say manstopper works for more kinds. Why not for hunting rilfes as well? Why not dum dum (essentially hollow points) in autoguns? We could keep on finding inconsistancies and unrealistic rules all day.

I like the basic change +1 damage for Heavy stubber, looks like something that could be in the errata (although it won't since these weapons won't be used often).

Friend of the Dork said:

Remember that the range is only for medium range, not the total range of the weapon in question. And that is for a weapon without any modifications to it (like a scope). It's not that easy to hit a target at 150 meters, even with an accurate hunting rifle without careful aim first. And then if you aim the weapon you could shoot at targets on long range without any penalties. If the weapon is equipped with a scope (like a sniper rifle certainly would be) then the rules state that range wont be much of an issue, even at extreme range.

Of course modern sniper rifles CAN hit targets at ranges of over 2000 meters (like the Barrett .50), taking such long range shots are hardly considered to be orthodox in the military and they require REALLY careful aim in order to hit. Usually a sniper will try to get within a closer range in order to be able to hit specific body parts of their targets anatomy. Usually ranges close to the ones described in Dark Heresy (although the DH ranges can be atad bit too short for realism sometimes).

If you wanted to stat out the M249 SAW, even the new FN version, you'd certainly have to include the 'unreliable' rule. Aside from that, it would function as an autogun with a belt-fed ammo source and 100-round magazine. The rrate of fire would be the same as any other full-auto burst, (i.e. 10 rounds).

Still not the heavy stubber. There is no SAW in 40k, because units don't seem to operate in fire teams. They always operate at a squad level, and therefore tend to huddle around larger support weapons rather than something like the SAW or the BAR.

As far as heavy machine guns go, the damage should be catastrophic, or at least should have the 'rending' quality. You can't get cliped by a browning .50 cal round and stand right back up to get back in the fight. A round that size disintegrates limbs upon impact. It turns people into pink mist.

In answer to the question of overly bulky 40k tech, I've always liked to imagine that its attempt to create particularly sturdy weapons. In 40k, unlike in our world of planned obsolescence, tech is built to last forever, if properly maintained. Shoddy craftsmanship is an affront to the machine god. If a device has to be twice as heavily built as compared to a modern analogue, just to ensure that it can stand the test of time, then so be it. A compact car, in 40k, would bear little resemblance to a modern toyota. It would be a massively built, blocky affair forged of solid steel, copper , and brass. But rather than crumbling after ten years of use, it would become a family heirloom, getting the kids to school for centuries to come. In fact, its a design philosophy I could get behind. In fact, the real sophistication of a lot of 40k tech seems to lie in its durability.

Also, the SAW is not, by any means, a heavy weapon. It is man portable and can be fired from the hip in a pinch. You can even clear rooms with it, if you're feeling froggy. Guys carry it around all day, often much to their chagrin.

I think one should consider the stubber to be a standard medium machine gun, firing a mid caliber round comparable to 7.62, and mounted on a vehichle or tripod/bipod, and serving as a squad-level support weapon. The shoe fits. The only thing that needs to be adjusted is the weight.

The M240, or its grand-pappy, the m60, are good examples of the species and behave much like a heavy stubber.

@ FotD: I know I was tepmted to just put the str at d10+3 because it makes more sense background wise but added +1 to the str because otherwise it is too close to another autogun. Also I wasnt trying to make ultra realistic rules, I just looked up the M2HB's maximum effective range and said what that would be in DH in reponse to other people saying the range was too short.

The reason the rate is so high is to stop people hitting with every shot which is unlikely with a SAW type weapon but can happen with 10 shot rapid fire (I have seen it happen with a heavy stubber). There is nothing in DH rules that say that RoF cant go above 10, it is just inefficent to do so because you lose all of the benefits of rapid fire after 10 shots as your to hit is unlikely to be over 100. If you want to fix it to be another autogun then just lower the str by 1 take the shots down to 10 and get rid of the special rule, which tbh is there precisely because you are unlikely to get many hits from it making it not overpowered but useful at the same time. Manstopper is just there because I cant change the manstopper rules so I put a note saying you can use that type of ammo, why is that strange?

Hunting Rifles can use manstoppers, its in the errata. I dont know why Dumdums cant be used by autoguns they should be able to, shrug.

TBH you seem overly hostile to a suggestion I came up with in 5 mins to fill a gap in the DH armoury, its not perfect, neither are most of the weapons. I have been saying heavy stubbers are fine since the start but basically what some people want is the heavy stubber stats without the weight. This was one solution to that.

Kaihlk

Nullius said:

Actually some Imperial Guard regiments do have fire-teams as a doctrine, but these are not covered in the rules for the table top wargame, but instead are often depicted in a few Black Library novels. (The Tanith frequently use this doctrine as their regiment is a scout regiment and functions more efficiently in fire-teams rather than full squads). However they don't seem to use much in the way of support weapons (except for "Try Again" Bragg, who have to use autocannons and heavy bolters due to him being such a lousy shot, but being big and strong enough to carry such heavy weaponry on his own), but more oftenly employ snipers for support-fire (like Mkoll and "Mad" Larkin).

Nullius said:

I.E a rather "Russian" philosophy?

But I totally agree. Rust on equipment and machinery might be an issue in today's world, but in 40K you just sand it off, comfort in the knowledge that there is plenty of metal left in your gun to be corroded for millenia to come for it to be an issue in the present.

But the heavy stubber should not be made so light as to be man-portable. It's got a lot of firepower. Even relatively light weapons like the 240 or the m60 are still not somethhing you can tote around a battlefield. They are crew-served weapons, i.e. the are usually assigned two guys who carry around, set up, and operate the weapon. Perhaps the extra weight is meant to reflect this unwieldy aspect. You're not going to chase someone down with a medium machine-gun in your shoulder and riddle them with bullets, unless you're Rambo, of course. Or Chuck Norris.

Nullius said:

... Or "Try Again" Bragg from Gaunt's Ghosts.

Remember that time when he took TWO autocannons and strapped them together using a few belt-straps, and then used a bent fork as an extra trigger in order to fire them both at the same time?

Oh, the recoil!

Varnias Tybalt said:

My sentiments exactly. Those giant pistols may not be any fun to carry around, but they look very dependable and very lethal. These are important qualities to any field operative. The same could be said of the Imperial Warships, for than matter.

The .50 cal is built around a similar philosophy. It is massively built, and very trustworthy (unlike the SAW or any other light machine gun). Some M2's have been in circulation for decades, and when we're done with them, we sell theem to allies who continue to put them into service. I've seen African Union M2's that are literally covered with rust and still perfectly functional. There is probably an M2 out there somewhere that has been in service for over 50 years. They don't build 'em like they used to. I suppose that's why the design for the M2 hasn't changed in 100 years.

In all fairness to the late Try again Bragg, Emperor rest his soul, I did know a big, dumb, steroid-monkey who, on at least one occasion, fired a 240 from the hip. He was a beast, and he didn't seem to have too much trouble with it. Whether he hit anything he was firing at is another question, however.

Hey Varnius Tybalt. Could you answer an unrelated question for me.

How does one find one's private messages for their FFG account? I'd like to be able to send/receive messages, but I've never been able to find my in box. Odd question, I realize, but its been bothering me for months.

Nullius said:

Well I haven't actually tried using the message service on the FFG forums, but I know that under your Friends list you can click on an icon that says "send private message to one of your friends".

I don't know if this message will be sent to your e-mail adress or if you can read it in your profile somehow, though.

Like I said, I have never tried using this method myself. But I hope it helps you in some way.

Nullius said:

Not man-portable. Why not? Given that DH characters, whilst not superhuman, are at least supposed to be better than the run of the mill citizens. An if you want to spend all the talents and get the STR upgrades to use a heavy weapon from the hip (a la Rambo), why shouldnt you have that type of character?

The weight though is excessive but is in line with the other heavy weapons out there that the guard use (Heavy bolters, lascannons, missile launchers, etc) which is unfortunately why i believe FFG statted it like this.

S.K.

I think he meant for a normal character not designed specifically so that he can lug around heavy weapons. It shouldn't become like a SAW weapon I think is what he is meaning. Also FFG didnt stat it BI did.

Kaihlik

Varnias Tybalt said:

You seem to be answering yourself there. The range is not even for Medium range, but half of maximum "normal" range without penalties. 300 meters without penalties with a heavy stubber doesen't sound too bad to me, even if RL effective range is lower. And I don't really believe supression at 1km is normal procedure even if possible, engagement ranges are usually closer for ground-based unmounted weapons.

Hitting something with 150 meters with a hunting rifle such as the .30-08 or similar (mauser kar98k, m14 etc.) is pretty much standard procedure for soldiers. I'm not saying I would pull it off without training, but even civillians training with rifles tends to fire at 100m minimum, and usually 300-600 meters. maximum range IIRC from the errata is 4 times the base range. 600 meters sounds like a good range to hit someone, not at all "extreme" for a good hunting rifle. I'd easily double the range of the hunting rifle.

Then again I don't think it's worth the effort, these situations doesen't come too often and DH focuses on short range engagements and even melee combat.

Well if the heavy stubber is based off the M2 then a few changes need to be made.

It needs to do more damage. It needs to weigh more, the M2 weighs 38kg without tripod or ammo. and 200 rounds of .50bmg is not something I would want to have to lug around all day.

My guess is that the heavy stubber was supposed to be a M60 equivalent. A m60 weighs in at 10~11kg (which includes the fold down bi-pod but not the ammo). While 200 rounds of .308 ain't light it is a lot lighter than 200 rounds of .50 bmg.

So if we say it is a M60 equivalent the damage is about right but it is then too heavy, drop it to 20kg with a 200 round belt included.

llsoth said:

Which is exactly why I said that when me and the guys in my group imagine a heavy stubber, we imagine something of a cross-hybrid between the M2 and the M60. Not as big as the M2, but not as small as the M60 either, but something in between. In other words: a glorious middleway!

Freind of the Dork

This is academic, and incidental to DH as its hard to imagine any situation similar coming up in the course of a game, but heavy machine guns can indeed supress out to surprising ranges. 1km is easy for a M2, and also fairly typical for a pre-registered defensive scheme (especially on high ground).

...Pre-registered means that the weapon is mounted on a tripod and affixed to a small device called a T&E. The rounds will be traversed around over the course of setting up a defensive position until the tracers are falling into the beaten-zone you desire(in this case, an avenue of approach to be supressed). The precise settings on the traversing bar and T&E are marked down on a range card which then becomes the defensive plan for that position. If, or when, the position is assaulted and the section leader for the heavy guns notices penetration near the ave of approach marked by whatever landmark he has chosen, he'll call out a shift to that pre-registered target and all of the guns in the section will begin supressing that position by returning their T&E and traversing bar to the pre-registered values. It is very much standard procedure, and, in the case of the M2 is actually used to engage light vehichles on the assault at maximum range (the actual purpose of the weapon). Furthermore, the range of the .50 cal is so great that it can be used as an indirect fire weapon with a range up to 7.4 kilometers away (at a 45 degree elevation of the barrel). Again, one would pre-register the target using a forward observer much as with a heavy Mortar Section. This, however, is very rare and I've never seen it done nor heard of Americans Utilizing the Weapon in this way. I'm told the german machine gunners in WW1 and WW2 utilized such advanced techniques, however.

The whole purpose of these heavy weapons is to supress targets effectively at range. It is, indeed, standard procedure.

As far as hitting a target 1200 meters away with a single shot from a hunting rifle, I think you're rather underestimating the difficulty. Its pretty hard.

Despite the reputation Machine Gunners often have for being lead-flinging meatheads, machine-gunnery is in fact as technically involved as most other weapon-specialties.

Nullius said:

Yup pretty academic. I'm not sure what you're arguing here, I've already said I woulnd't mind the heavy stubber having a longer range, as long as it fits with the other weapons in DH which are often underestimated in range. You could of course give a range bonus to overwatch action, as that's what you're describing. I don't really know why they decided that suppression is at half range only.

I'd say hitting at 1200 meters with a rifle is extremely hard. In DH it is impossible however. Just as it is impossible to it someone at 601 meters. Sounds fine to you?

Kaihlik said:

No need to get defensive, you made a suggestion, I tried to improve on it. As for the damage the reason why I think d10+3 is ok is that the SAW essentially is an assault rifle (autogun) built to be able to shoot rapidly for extended periods without overheating. I'm not saying it's the same weapon, but it uses the same ammunition and frankly being shot by a bullet from either weapon will have pretty much the same effect. Besides, autoguns with a belt makes for an excellent weapon in itself, full auto is very nice and ammunition is the real drawback to the autogun.

DH rules doesen't say that ROF 10 is max, but it uses the same for all large automatic weapons regardless of RL comparisons' RoF. Thus I don't see why THIS weapon should be different.

Why can't you change manstopper rules? You think the Inquisition will come knocking and shout "heresy!"? In any case you are changing the manstopper rules even if you write it on the weapon instead of the ammo. Not that I mind.

Didn't remember about the hunting rifle with manstoppers. Make sense tho, just as dumdums should be usable for all SP weapons except for shotguns.

Who is TBH?

I could but its easier to note the a weapon can use a type of ammo than to rerwite the entire entry just to add in one weapon at the end. As the manstopper rules are in the rulebook it means most people wont be looking at my "version" just to note the weapon can use it, thus I put it in Special, which is the simplist solution.

The reason I made it heavy was to so the it would be braced before used and would use a bipod. The thing is that it is kind of an intermediate category, that could be fixed with another special rule but I did not want to overload it with those.

Here are some revised rules.

Name Type Range RoF Dam Pen Clip Rld Wt Special

Light Stubber* Basic 120m S/-/10 d10+3 0 200 2full 8.5kg Suppressive Weapon
*Note can use Manstopper bullets.

Suppressive Weapon: The rate of fire and accuracy of the Light Stubber makes it very useful as a suppressive weapon. The Light Stubber is capable of bracing like a heavy weapon, if it does so it gains a hit for every degree of success when using supressive fire rather than every 2 degrees.

That fits more with how it should operate, it can now fire like a normal autogun with a big clip but if you take the time to set it up then it gives you a bonus to supressive fire. How is that, better? The Supressive fire rule serves to give it more of a purpose especially when fights are short (thus losing the bonus of a large clip size). The price and availability still need to be set although I think they should be Rare as they do not really feature in 40k much, a cost of 75-100 is probably apropriate although im not sure its good enough over an autogun to warrent that price. Thoughts?

Kaihlik

Kaihlik said:

Hmm i like the presentation alot better. Just a few things I found odd:

1. Basic Weapon. I suppose you want to let people with normal rifle/shotgun training to use this weapon as well. Well, I don't think it's a problem although I can't really see how a heavy stubber would be that different to operate. It does fit better with the new name though. And it lets the newbie guardsman use a heavy-ish weapon withouit requiring the talent which is not available until rank 2 or 3 IIRC.

2. RoF. Since you've given it single-shot capablity you might as well give it semi-auto burst. The same as the Autogun's should do the trick.

3. Price and availability. For the latter, Scarce should be minimum. Rare fits pretty well, although it could be Scarce in a war zone, and be a war zone specific weapon (as the Armageddon is a Hive specific weapon). The Price should be higher than the Autogun, as this is alot more useful and except for weight, no disadvantage compared to the autogun. Thus I'd say 300 in cost, which is still alot less than the heavy stubber. This weapon is ALOT better than the autogun as it is presented, for nothing else than the 200 "clip" size. The suppression rule is just icing on the cake.

To give it a disadvantage I'd say the weapon counts as heavy for weapon upgrades/attachments. Sorry, not compact light stubber with silencer and bayonet.

I'd let it use autoguns mags as well. reducing reload time to full action and magazine weight to 350g (same as autogun). That's lighter than in RL but what the heck it's easy.

That's pretty much it. I'll allow this baby in my own game, although I doubt my acolytes will be very interested, except maybe the new guardsman. I would have loved to use it myself though.

Friend of the Dork said:

Oh yeah. I kind of got lost in the details. The point I was making was that heavy and medium machine guns are, in fact, designed to engage at ranges of a kilometer +, and that its fairly typical to go so, particularly in the defense.

The whole point of the M2 is its ability to reach out and touch someone. The abilities of a medium machine gun are comparable. The whole purpose at this range is to suppress the enemy on the advance and to kill armor.

Given that, I'd say you're correct that the range is way to short, although one has to distinguish between effective ranges against a point and area target. Certainly supression ranges should be twice a weapon's normal range rather than half. After all, you're not aiming to hit anything.