Well to be fair, as of late there has been alot of worlds disscusion threads on the boards, not ALL ban this ban that. You should also know that on the boards no one is their self. I mean on the old boards tychochamp was a duche' bag, but in all reality he was a really cool guy. So even though people act like jerks on here it's not nessisarily true (cept mabye in shinji's case but I don't know that yet).

All I have to say: in an argument, he who throws the first insult is the one who is too stupid to make an effective argument.

It's stuff like this that keeps people from actually voicing their concerns. I like UFS, I really do. However the forum community has got to be the worst I've ever had to deal with. I've never had the gross insults I find here in any other forum, not even WoW forums and I consider that game a resident of the 7th circle of hell. It's that kind of attitude that keep people from playing and enjoying the game. Ever wonder if this bickering turns new players off of the game? Who wants to play a game where the forums insult you for not knowing every ruling ever made (even the ones that contradict other rulings, but only half the time and in certain states... with certain arbiters... , or when people try to discuss cards and it ends in a name-calling war. I wouldn't get into UFS at this point in the game.

Plain and simple: being a jerk doesn't help anyone. If you think threads like this are stupid, then just ignore it. That takes a lot less effort than ranting and raving over it for numerous posts. I thought the 'boycotting tekken' thread was stupid when I saw it. Instead of telling that OP 'you're an idiot' I shrugged, figured he was entitled to his opinion, and went on my way. People are allowed to voice their opinions in a forum and it shouldn't be a witch hunt when people do. Flinging personal insults, spouting profanity, and acting like a jerk aren't going to stop threads like these. All it's going to do is piss off the guys at FFG like Tag mentioned.

The point of this thread was not to call for the banning of the card. I suggested an errata, but my exact words were:

"It's probably too late to address for the August SOTG, but I hope someone from FFG takes a look at the card long enough to consider 'Is this how this card is really meant to be played?'"

All I was asking for is whether or not the guys who made it really intended for it to be like Power of the Edge. Yes I would like to see an errata for the card, but I'm not going to demand it. I'm just going to do what I have been doing and attempt to provide a calm civil discussion with anyone who would like to make intelligent counter arguments on the card without the personal insults. I'm sorry if that's such a bad thing, but if it really gets to you, feel free to not click on the thread anymore. Like I said, ignoring a thread is just as easy (easier in my opinion) than starting a pointless flame war.

griffinman01 said:

You're right, people will play power cards regardless of stats, but the stats can make a powerful card into one that doesn't see a lot of play, or a weaker card (with better stats) make a place in every deck ever. If Olcadan's Mentoring was a 3/4 no block, would it have seen so much play? Certainly not. It still may have been a tournament staple, but it wouldn't have been 2~4x in every single deck that ever went anywhere. Or compare how often you see No Memories to how often you see Inhuman Perception. etc. You seem to be arguing that stat spreads are irrelevant , which is patently false.

And in regards to MaD's actual powerlevel and how much of an impact it has on the game, it's far from the first card to have the effect, "Your opponent's attack does nothing." Criminal Past trades the destroy cost for a small vitality loss [particularly if its done before you play all your damage pump Es], unless you're using a throw. Amy's Assistance can usually completely negate a poke attack, and take a very significant chunk out of a bigger one. Healer and Holding Ground completely obliterate all of the damage pumps you used on your attack, as well as any Multiples. American Made/Strife's Patronage make blocking easy even if you use speed pumps (and in Strife's case, even if you have a high printed speed). And then there's lifegain effects like Battle Prowess or Tough Outer Shell.

Gaius Marius said:

Since you made a preemptive insult to people who insult people in arguments (calling them stupid), you have thus already lost every argument in which an insult is thrown. Since I haven't insulted you yet to assure my victory; you're made of cheese. VERMONT cheese, not good cheese like Wisconsin cheese.

brislove said:

It was directed at Tag, who has not contributed anything useful that was not veiled in an insult. Plus, my comment was not directly an insult, but merely an observation through many arguments across many spectrums.

Anyway, figured I would chime in on the original topic.

First, I think it is useful to look at what effects MaD has:

1)Multiple hate. In this effect, it is no different than Ichi No Tachi and Mark of the Beast, which I have no problem with. In fact, I think multiple hate is very healthy for the game. However, the multiple that NEEDS the hate (Feline Spike) is still unfazed by this card due to its overpowered E. No issues here.

2)Discards the other cards in the card pool. Seems innocent enough, clears the card pool. However, it also seconds as momentum denial. All those attacks that dealt damage before and you wanted to add to your momentum? Gone. As the game is shifting away from easy momentum gen and towards gaining momentum from attacking, this card is a serious block to that. Sure, some decks that don't need momentum won't care, but some decks (Void decks, for example) rely on attacking for momentum gen (thankfully for Void, it has some of the best answers to MaD, but other symbols aren't so fortunate). Can be an issue, but not that overpowered (look at Mortal Strike and Absurd Strength for other momentum denial effects).

3)Negates an attack. It is Power of the Edge in foundation form! First things first, I had no problem with Power of the Edge. The reason? It cost two momentum to use, which for those symbols at the time, was a precious commodity. Both rolled 4s, so no problems there. Both were one shots (Action vs a foundation that destroys itself). However, MaD has no cost compared to PotE! No momentum, no discard from hand, nothing. This is where the issues start. Rejection was banned for a similar effect that was easily recurred. MaD is recurrable via Gorgeous Team off of two symbols (as has been mentioned). This, combined with the previous two effects of MaD makes it pretty potent when compared to similar cards in the game, as all of the other examples named do ONE of the three effects that MaD has.

Now, I AM NOT CALLING FOR A SWING FROM THE BANHAMMER!!!! This is not a bannable card, but it is a really, REALLY powerful, efficient card. All the OP was aiming for was a discussion of the card, and a possible errata to curb the power of the card. I agree with the errata, because on MaD owner's turn, it is fine. In fact, it is maybe a little overcosted (compare to Whirlwind), which leads me to believe that this was the intended function of the card.

MaD has answers, but so do all of the problem cards. MaD is similar to Battle Prowess and Blood Runs True in the fact that all three are manageable cards that are easy to bait and play around - if there are 1-2 on the field. However, when 3-4+ (Thank you Lynettes!) hit, that is when the problems begin. BP and BRT have survived multiple rounds of banning, so I don't think that they are going anywhere, and neither should MaD. Not every deck can run answers to MaD, and MaD has symbols that can lead to countermeasures to the answers (including the universal SoC). Discussions should focus on what answers exist, and strategy of how to play around this card, not flinging out insults like pre-schoolers.

Gaius Marius said:

guitalex2008 said:

Ugh! Sorry about that, got my symbols mixed up.

Yup, Life is pretty bad currently, so the recursion aspect is not as big, I just wanted to bring it up.

Ooh, looking through my Photobucket I found an old pic I had made for an icon.

To answer the OP: I don't think so. It can negate an attack, and it provides some solid Multiple hate, but it's hardly unbalanced. Consider that right now, Air , All , and Life are all aggressive symbols, and 3/4 with no block is a very unappealing spread for these guys. It's one of the very few defensive/drawing pieces in All , so you don't have to worry about it combining with other cards to get too out of hand. All and Life have more options available, so they may not even use it. Life as a symbol is sorely lacking right now, so it could use all the help it can get. Honestly, I think the card is fine. Criminal Past is better to me; reusable, better CC, and it doesn't have the potential to help out your opponent. To boot, its cost can be negated with Battle Prowess with a lot less hassle than what you can reuse Make a Difference with The Gorgeous Team . Also, off the top of my head I can think of quite a few ways to deal with it that are available to more than one symbol (negation, committing, destruction, baiting, I can go on if you like). Is it good? Sure. Is it worth running? Probably yes. Is it a staple? I think not, but it's debatable. Does it require any change whatsoever? Not in my book.

guitalex2008 said:

My bad on that. For some reason I thought it had water as well.

griffinman01 said:

It's stuff like this that keeps people from actually voicing their concerns. I like UFS, I really do. However the forum community has got to be the worst I've ever had to deal with. I've never had the gross insults I find here in any other forum, not even WoW forums and I consider that game a resident of the 7th circle of hell. It's that kind of attitude that keep people from playing and enjoying the game. Ever wonder if this bickering turns new players off of the game? Who wants to play a game where the forums insult you for not knowing every ruling ever made (even the ones that contradict other rulings, but only half the time and in certain states... with certain arbiters... , or when people try to discuss cards and it ends in a name-calling war. I wouldn't get into UFS at this point in the game.

Even I kept civil on the Q&A boards. The only person I really ever insulted was aslum, and he was fishing for it.

griffinman01 said:

Obviously it was intended to work that way, people asked about it the day it was released and it was discussed at the time, and yes, it works exactly as intended. It's far from overpowered - again, 3/4, no block, destroys itself. Air decks have trouble working in the additional 3/4 foundation, and All and Life kinda suck at the moment.

I don't see what the problem is in the slightest. This card is nowhere near the level of several other cards currently legal which also are nowhere near the level of needing errata or banning.

Can you guys talk about a good card without whining about it needing to be ******' errataed or banned? Just one time? Just once? Maybe? It's this constant talk about cards needing banning/errata that turns new players away, not a few caustic and embittered posts by a disgruntled member of a forum. "I might want to try this card game... oh, but it seems like the game is degenerate and there are cards that need attention... I guess I'll avoid it" I've heard it LOCALLY for ****'s sake. It's so, so absurd. Even the Bandai forums - the Naruto CCG has a LOT of errata'd cards - have less ban/errata talk than this one... significantly less, at that.

Edit: Also if you took my first post in this thread as an insult, you're who I'm takling to in my second post in this thread, rofl. "All I have to say: in an argument, he who throws the first insult is the one who is too stupid to make an effective argument. " Hahahahaahhahahaahahahahahaahaha.

Also, Tannerface: Yeah, I was hoping after the last wave of bans/erratas people might've finally been satisfied for a while but of course not, that's asking far too much of the UFS forum community. But don't forget about the Battle Prowess thread not too long ago...

Edit edit: Also, it's not me that make James and Steve not want to look at the boards, it's you guys. Just FYI.

LordAggro said:

I think Criminal past isn't as powerful for a few reasons. First off, though it's reusable, it does have a steep cost in many cases. Earth laughs at the life cost, but all and especially death have a bit tougher time with that. Secondly, the attack is blocked as normal, meaning that you still take the half damage from throws and all of the other triggers that occur as a result of blocking (kind of handy with reversals I'll admit).

I like the multiple hate of it since there isn't much out there, however I also don't like how it cancels the rest of the enhance step essentially. With criminal Past you could still fire off things like Natural Leader to get momentum, Chinese boxing, stun effects, multiples, and all sorts of other fine enhances. Sure the attack wont deal damage, but in many cases it doesn't need to. With MaD the card is discarded, typically as your opponent's first E:, and you have no other options available to you.

That actually brings up another interesting idea on the card. Do people think that as a First E: ability, MaD would be less of an issue? If your opponent had to guess with the card, it would be easier to bait and, in my opinion, less of a problem. Sure you could use it to kill a multiple when it hits the table, but it prevents you from seeing what your opponent does with it prior to using it. Power of the Edge was used when the attack was played so it was easy to slip things past it on occasion (a quick action or couple of enhances that your opponent didn't see). If MaD worked along those lines, I think it would be less of an issue.

I want to make one more comment on what you said about a 3/4 being unappealing to air decks. I have to disagree with that as I've seen the card most in air decks as a means of defense. It allows an air player to be more aggressive because they have an ace on the table in case they need it. In the SoCal regionals last weekend I played a Tira deck that utilized it effectively. He nuked one of my large attacks and was able to live through the turn as a result. He then turned it around and killed me the following turn because he didn't need to burn much to stay alive (ie he didn't have to block with his attacks in hand or burn momentum for Tira's contract). I don't know how it fares in All or Life decks, but i have to say that Air uses the card a LOT.

Anyways, I'm glad to see that things have gone back to the original intent of the thread.

Tagrineth said:

So, what led to cards like Bitter Rivals, Rejection, and Lord of the Makai to get banned? They were good cards. The problem is that they were TOO good. People argued about them needing a ban or errata because it was justified. Those cards got banned because enough people brought up valid points on how powerful they are and the dev team listened. The dev people aren't sitting around playing the game endlessly, checking each and every card combination in existence for broken or degenerate combos. They rely on player feedback for that because players are going to find these combos and use them, causing other players to discuss them. If the combo is seen as too good, people will talk about it. It's the way of CCGs.

Maybe the reason why Naruto CCG has less ban/errata talk is because there are fewer cards with issues, or that the dev team is quicker to pass judgement. It's not all about the 'whininess' of the players.

And Tag, Calm Down. We know you've got a chip on your shoulder so there's no need to start up the personal insults again and be so abrasive. I ask again, drop the profanity a few notches and keep the topic civil.

griffinman01 said:

This card is already a higher difficulty (for a foundation) and a bad check (for a foundation). With higher risk should come greater rewards! The point of this card is to "make a difference" and it sure does when you cannot block a 20spd/20dmg attack come for you or when you are staring down 3-4-5 multiples.

griffinman01 said:

I guess Tag is right. even though I've been confused a few times and Tag yelled at me I was just being blonde or something. These cards would've been banned sooner or later. Right when those cards came out I'm sure everyone was like, gotta get me a piece of this!! I remeber i didnt buy domination (for a while) and i saw bitter rivals and I was like this is bullcrap. I do feel however this forum has more whiners than a preschool full of hungry children ~_~.

griffinman01 said:

They weren't banned because of the QQ fest on the forum, they were banned because of visible tournament results proving the cards were overpowered as well as private discussions with specific top players, and discussions on the private board reserved for playtesters. Nothing to do with this forum - that they don't even READ.

Less QQ! More TIGER UPPERCUT!

Tagrineth said:

If they don't care about the forum to even look over it and listen to comments then what's the point of even having it? So that everyone has an outlet to get into fights? Not the best way to treat your customers and supporters FFG... Especially when so few tournaments come around in my area. Nice to know that they'd prefer to alienate the majority of their players rather than moderate the board.

Honestly, things weren't so bad when Rapierduel cleaned house.

@ Hayamachop

I've never actually seen MaD used on the offensive so I never really paid attention to that.

A player in my area uses Make a Difference only for offensive purposes. Unless he's going to die from an attack he'll use MaD but that's it. Its quite a powerful way to clear your card pool and draw into more attacks. Too bad, your opponent also draws cards, so the card is actually a double edged sword that way.

I feel like with so many other overpowered cards in standard right now...namely Blood Runs True, Make a Difference is pretty low on the list of the needs-an-errata list.

I think its the way standard format works off cards now that everyone has gotten a bit grumpy. I know cards have annoyed me to no end these couple of weeks trying to test decks for worlds. Almost every symbol can build a wall so defensive that every game lasts 50 minutes. Its no surprise people aren't as friendly on the forums anymore. (I'm pretty new to the forums so maybe that's just the general population here)

griffinman01 said:

I will use MaD offensively in my Tira. I have it in there in case I need to discard so I can use Shredding Vibrato and I am Jolly with no other discard in my staging area. Very effictive.

Cronos said:

I can see that being pretty effective. You didn't pull that on me during the regionals, though I do remember you killing a Melancholic with it at some point in the second game.

KawaiiMistress said:

Nah we're just being angsty. Tis the season

griffinman01 said:

then be glad that you didn't go to the any other events, I hear that people utilize all the cards in their decks effectivley. there is nothing wrong with makes a difference, you should have prepared better to deal with cards that people would play. you know what card really is a little too good, ira spinta...