Can the extra reactions from Step Aside & Wall of Steel be used for Furious Assault attacks, thoughts ideas?

Against - Step Aside & Wall of Steel say they give reactions that can only be used as the appropriate dodge/parry.

For - Reactions can't normally be used for anything but dodge/parry and Furious Assault lets you turn your reaction into attacks during all out attack actions (which you can't parry or dodge while doing).

Just curious.

My sum of rule = not.

Because, wall of steel/step aside give you additional parry and dodge attempts <> additional reaction.

I would say no as well, WoS/SA specifically state the extra reaction can only be used to parry/dodge.

Everyone gets a single "reaction" in a round, its just that the vast majority can only use it on parry/dodge, at least until they get a talent (like furious assault) or a skill or device that means they can do summat else with it as well. I think the techpriest gets a few, and there are always weapons linked to MIU's...

S.K.

Yup I say no as well because those talents specifically list for you what the reactions can be used for and nothing else.

Alrighty, looks like frenzied assault and frenzy are really kinda... gimp compaired to swift attack/lightning attack. Bad talent balancing strikes again, unless I've missed something under All-Out Attack that says you get an attack for having an offhand weapon.

Frenzy increases WS, S, T, and WP by 10 and makes you immune to Stun and Fatigue and Fear. Gimped it is not.

bogi_khaosa said:

Stat bonuses aside (which are pretty solid) it also means you only make one attack per round (unless you have the aformentioned furious assault) and cant dodge or parry if your in it!!

Gimped it is.

Solomon Kane said:

The ability to parry can be returned through the Battle Rage talent (so long as you didn't All-Out Attack in previous turns - not as uncommon as it might sound, as those turns on which you charged will still allow you to parry if you have Battle Rage), and Furious Assault essentially gives you two attacks at +20 in exchange for a reaction that you can't use anyway. Add a mono great weapon or a chainaxe into the mix, frenzy and use Furious Assault, and there aren't many things that'll be left standing after you're finished. For feral worlders (whose physical prowess is considerable anyway), particularly those in armour, or even larger creatures (remember that skills and talents are used as much by NPCs as by PCs, so while something might not be the best choice for a particular player character, that doesn't make it completely pointless)

And, quite frankly, immunity to stunning, fatigue and fear are really quite good benefits as well - fear can be a killer for combat specialists, for whom WP isn't necessarily their strongest point, and stunning and fatigue immunity essentially lets you shrug off a good proportion of low-end critical effects.

It might not look as good as going for lightning attack and an off-hand weapon, but in practice the whole package is still a very nice deal...

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Yeah, i agree with you wholeheartedly about it being a good deal (and i totally missed the bit about Battle Rage/Charging, cheers!) but i think i have to make the point that almost everyone i have played with (and many board-users too) always goes for/agrees with the Multiple attack/2 weapons approach simply because it isnt so one dimensional as Frenzy. Because frenzy can be replicated via combat drugs, buying the skill itself has become somewhat of a waste of XP and unless your character is very tough/resilient/armoured up like hell, you will get dropped far sooner than you would with defensive reactions available.

Fair enough to say no parrying, but limiting you to all out attack? Thats what does it down and is why i consider it gimped,

S.K.

Because frenzy can be replicated via combat drugs, buying the skill itself has become somewhat of a waste of XP and unless your character is very tough/resilient/armoured up like hell, you will get dropped far sooner than you would with defensive reactions available.

Frenzy can be replicated thus - the enhancements for frenzy can't be.

Cifer said:

As in "you have to have Frenzy talent to take Battle Rage talent"?

Otherwise i dont really get what "enhancements" you refer to?

S.K.

Solomon Kane said:

To be honest I find it wierd why multiple attacks should be considered a completely separate action from "All out attack" and "Charge" etc. I mean just listen to the sounding of the term "All out attack". The way I imagine it, it does not sound like that person only swipe his weapon ONCE at his opponent, but rather madly hacking away multiple times with total disregard for his/her safety.

Im seriously considering removing the "Multiple attacks" action all together and simply state that swift attack and lightning attack just let's you do more attacks, and you can use them in conjunction with the "All out attack" or "Defensive attack" actions (recieving the relevant bonuses/penalties as normal). This way, the melee combat would be more interesting where a lot more blows are struck, but at the same time the combatants will have to carefully consider in which manner the blows are struck (with careful regard for their own safety, or sacrificing safety in order to hit their opponents easier). And most importantly: Frenzied character will seem more... Well FRENZIED!

Once again, just listen to the word. Does a "frenzied" person sound like he or she would just strike one mighty blow at a time, or does it sound like a berserking madman(or woman) who hacks away with total disregard for their own safety?

On the other hand, it quite explicitly says in the core rules that a single attack action is NOT a single swing with the sword. It's an abstraction.

As in "you have to have Frenzy talent to take Battle Rage talent"?

Otherwise i dont really get what "enhancements" you refer to?

Battle Rage, Mental Rage and Flagellant (at least, Flagellant's main use of reducing frenzy to a free action is wasted when you have to use drug injectors).

Graspar said:

Yeah, thats true, but looking at it from a mechanics point of view..

Frenzy - 1 attack roll at +20 (maybe 2, accounting for furious assault, assuming the opponent hasnt parried/dodged the first)

Multiple attacks - 2-3 attack rolls at no bonus. (maybe more if 2 weapon fighting)

And given that the opponents ability to parry or dodge your blows is purely dependent on thier own skill, with no regard to the degree of successes your own attack rolls...

Graspar said:

It still doesn't make any sense, abstractions or no. I mean I can attack multiple times while at the same time make sure I have enough defensive leeway to parry if I have swift attack, but it is IMPOSSIBLE for me to do an "All out attack" the same amount of times. I mean logically doing multiple strikes would entail that I compromise my opportunity to defend myself if I get attacked back, but this is not the case in the rules. Instead I can only achieve ONE hit maximum, in spite of me hurling myself at the opponent with total disregard for my own safety.

To be honest, the so called "abstractions" in Dark Heresy suck, big time. And I know this because I have played a game that handles abstractions in a far better way (meaning that they go with the abstractions pretty much all the way, instead of trying to keep track of minute details at the same time).

I think that I've said this before about combat abstractions and highly detailed combat. Go one way or the other, trying to combine both will just end up in a system that doesn't make much sense. So either hyper abstract, OR hyper detailed, never try to combine both. It will most likely result in too many bugs..

Yeah, thats true, but looking at it from a mechanics point of view..

Frenzy - 1 attack roll at +20 (maybe 2, accounting for furious assault, assuming the opponent hasnt parried/dodged the first)

Multiple attacks - 2-3 attack rolls at no bonus. (maybe more if 2 weapon fighting)

And given that the opponents ability to parry or dodge your blows is purely dependent on thier own skill, with no regard to the degree of successes your own attack rolls...

You're still leaving out part of the frenzy deal:

1 attack roll at +30 (frenzy +10, All-out +20) with +1 damage and a comparably high probability for a second roll at +30 and quite a bit more resistance to enemy actions (immunities to fear, stunning & pinning, +1 TB, +1 WPB).

True, point conceded there...

but if the enemy parries or dodges the first attack, furious assault doesnt kick in (you havent actually hit the enemy).

And is all the bonus immunities and resistances that are gained worth the loss of multiple strikes, tactical flexibility and all defensive actions? I dont think so.

This was my original point - amending or removing the "always use all-out attack" would drastically alter frenzy to the point it becomes a viable combat choice. Or amending Battle Rage itself to allow this..

S.K.

Solomon Kane said:

That depends. Say you have the Flagellant Talent and can Frenzy as a Free Action. As a result of a Fear check you get the result "Must flee at top speed, etc. etc.". As a free action, you can frenzy, gain immunity to Fear, and put yourself back into the fight. It's also good if you start the fight Fatigued, can only damage your opponent on 10, are facing opponents who can only damage you on a 10, or in other not so uncommon circumstances.