Hi all, two quick questions about the marshalling phase:

1. If I'm the last player, when I become the active player can I immediately declare that I have "no more actions that cost gold" (i.e. the Framework Action) to end the marshalling phase, or must all players pass in the previous Player Action window before control passes to this framework action? I reckon there's no way to just skip the player action phase but I've heard arguments that say it can, so I just want to be clear on this.

2. On a related note, say I have Ser Ilyn or Shae , both of whom have abilities which work during the Marshalling phase. If I've yet to use their ability, and the last player (who is not me) declares they have "no more actions that cost gold", do I lose the opportunity to use their abilities because the marshalling phase immediately ends (i.e. no more player action windows)? Or is there some way to get an 'extra' player action so that they don't miss out? It seems like the former, in which case I guess that Ser Illyn or Shae have to anticipate when the last player is about to end the phase and act before that happens. Does that sound about right?

Laban Shrewsbury said:

I'm sure you are right, but I'll wait for ktom's explanation.

"Active Player declares he has no more actions that cost gold." I think that this not an option and can be a little confusing.

Same problem is with challenges chart. If last player is finished with challenges, then there is a player action window, even though there is no next active player. But I may be wrong here.

During marshalling phase, the active player gets the first action, then each player has the opportunity of playing an action, and then the active player has his 2nd action. This goes on until everybody pass. It's a classical action frame, except that only the active player can do actions that cost gold.

Then the active player change and it starts back from the start.

There is no way to "shut down" an action phase, all the players must pass consecutively in order for it to end.

fabest said:

This is true and the ultimate answer. The technicalities can be a little more complex, though. Every player action window closes when players have all said "I have nothing" consecutively. So if you are the last player to Marshall and count gold, technically, every other player has the chance to do something before you get to take your first action - including spending gold to play something from your hand. So if you count your gold, no one does anything and you "immediately" say you are done, technically all other players have passed before you had a chance to say that and Marshalling would be over. (So the answer to your last question is that yes, an opponent would have to anticipate and use Shae/Payne before giving you the chance to say "done," unless they had dome something else between your last Marshalling action and you saying "done.")

Now, good sportsmanship would probably dictate that you make sure they know this quirk of timing (e.g. "Okay, I count gold. You're the First Player; anything you want to do before I marshal? No? Well then, I have no Marshalling actions and the phase ends. No, I gave you a chance and you passed.") instead of relying on their ignorance of the technical aspects of the action windows....

fabest said:

Just to avoid confusion: the first player gets the first action (in case he is not active player at the same time)

ktom said:

Ok, but challenges chart is much trickier. Imagine situation:

1 Last player (now active) declares a challenge (his first in this phase) - framework

2 Player actions

3 Defending player kneels defenders - framework

4 Player actions

5 Challenge resolves - framework

Now, the last player says "I'm finished with challenges".

6 Active player is finished with challenges - framework

7 End of phase - framework

Is it right? I don't think so.

Rogue30 said:

Correct to this point.

Rogue30 said:

In order to do this, you have to follow the line that says "Active Player's Next Challenge Opportunity" all the way back to the Player Action Window before challenge declaration. That line, the return to the Player Action Window, and the opportunity to do things after a challenge resolves exists until after the last active player actually says "no more challenges." This is true even after the last player declares their 3rd challenge (because there is still the "opportunity" to use a card effect that gives you more challenges.) You do not shunt from the "resolve challenge" framework to the "no more challenges for active player" framework until "no challenge" was declared back at the "challenge initiation" framework.

Rogue30 said:

These will never happen without one last chance to use Player Actions. Again, there is a sportsmanship/courtesy line here (e.g. "Anyone want to do anything before I declare my next challenge? No? Well I have no more challenges, so the phase ends") that shouldn't be abused. It's not nice to use someone's ignorance of timing technicalities against them. ~ Trust me, I know.

Rogue30 said:

Ok I didn't know that and it does not change a lot of things but I'm glad to have more knowledge

ktom said:

That's what I thought. Also, I played SWCCG for many years, so I'm aware of these timing/sportsmanship problems

Maybe challenges chart should be changed for clarity (by adding "player action" window just before phase end) to avoid arguments described by Laban Shrewsbury?

The challenges phase discussion is interesting. Just looking at the flowchart for the challenges phase in the FAQ , I think ktom is saying that the active player actually declares "no more challenges" during the second framework action. After that there are two more player actions and two more framework actions before we get the the framework action where the "Active Player is finished with challenges". Do those intervening player actions still get resolved normally too when there's no challenge (I guess the framework actions just do nothing)?

Gosh, I hope that makes sense!

Yes, it does make sense and yes, that is the way it technically flows. It usually takes almost no time to go through it and you won't recognize the flow most times, but that is the way the timing technically works.

Notice the heavy use of the word "technically" in this discussion. That's because there is usually very little practical difference so people usually don't notice all of this happening 99 times out of 100.