Super mega hyper form go!

By Fairbanks, in Rules Discussions

Right, so, the rulebook says:

"when a FC comes into play, it is placed directly on top of th existing Payer Card. A Player may only use a FC containing the name of his/her Player Card. A FC can be discarded at any time."

There is no bit, like about equipment, for playing forms during the action phase. From this text, I am presuming that there is nothing wrong with stacking forms. If I've already got Wisdom Form on my Sora, there's no reason I shouldn't be able to then put a Valor Form on top of that, with the Wisdom Form coming back whenever I choose to discard the valor form(or if I lose a challenge). Alternately, you could slap a Wisdom on top of a Valor to protect it from challenge losses, then take off the Wisdom when it suits you...

I find a flaw in your theory.

You place a form card atop a Player card. This form card is not your Player card, it is merely an augmentation of it. For all intents and purposes it functions as a Player card but it does not count as one, it still counts as a Form card/Form change.

You may only play a Form card atop a Player card.

See what I'm getting at yet?

Well, what I quoted from was the last paragraph under the entry for "player cards" in the rulebook, pertaining to a new type of player card, called a form card :) . And if you looks down at the bottom of your form cards, it says "Player/Light/FC," like a Player Card says "Player/Light."

Pooh lvl 1 sets them to zero something fierce too.

Fairbanks said:

Well, what I quoted from was the last paragraph under the entry for "player cards" in the rulebook, pertaining to a new type of player card, called a form card :) . And if you looks down at the bottom of your form cards, it says "Player/Light/FC," like a Player Card says "Player/Light."

Pooh lvl 1 sets them to zero something fierce too.

It also says that a Form card played Player card is not a normal Player card.

Fairbanks said:

Right, so, the rulebook says:

"when a FC comes into play, it is placed directly on top of th existing Payer Card. A Player may only use a FC containing the name of his/her Player Card. A FC can be discarded at any time."

There is no bit, like about equipment, for playing forms during the action phase. From this text, I am presuming that there is nothing wrong with stacking forms. If I've already got Wisdom Form on my Sora, there's no reason I shouldn't be able to then put a Valor Form on top of that, with the Wisdom Form coming back whenever I choose to discard the valor form(or if I lose a challenge). Alternately, you could slap a Wisdom on top of a Valor to protect it from challenge losses, then take off the Wisdom when it suits you...

Is the FC considered a Player Card though...I don't have one handy to look at currently.

If I say "Dawn is not a normal person," he's still a person. I mean, in the rulebook, under types of cards, is lists "player card" and then tells you exactly what a form card is. Pretty sure there's not any further evidence needed, additionally, the card says "player/light/fc" which indicates to me that it's a player card, a light card, and a form change. Just like how Roxas is a player card and an Org XIII card.

In the rulebook, the only thing mentioned is that FC are not normal player cards. And also mentions that a FC goes on the existing player card. The rulebook does not state that you can only have one form at a time. Also, the FC cards state to put on a "Sora", not stating which Sora though, may it be just The "Sora" player/light, or a "Sora" Player/Light/FC. It just states a "sora".

In this case, I would say you could stack FCs. In the case to remain true to the game, I would rule that you could not. Jaffer would have to respond to this one again.

What do you mean about being true to the game? I don't quite remember all of KH2, but I thought you could switch between them without going back to basic (can't remember though). Either way, it's not like it's game breaking, just allows for some cleverness.

I thought you had to revert back to normal before selecting the next form in the game. As I said, we'll just need a ruling on this matter.

See, the thing is, we say things like "this needs a ruling," but the rulebook+card text+previous precedents (Riku and Dark Riku getting to use soul eater) indicates that I'm right about the forms. It's like Diz all over again. All that needed to be asked was a duration. Now, he's a lvl 2 7 support friend! At least he's not bad now, but that's not at all what the card reads :(

Fairbanks said:

See, the thing is, we say things like "this needs a ruling," but the rulebook+card text+previous precedents (Riku and Dark Riku getting to use soul eater) indicates that I'm right about the forms. It's like Diz all over again. All that needed to be asked was a duration. Now, he's a lvl 2 7 support friend! At least he's not bad now, but that's not at all what the card reads :(

Diz is level 1 friend O_O;;

Touche. I only ever bothered to read the text box (/hipocrisy).

Fairbanks said:

Touche. I only ever bothered to read the text box (/hipocrisy).

? you can see the level on the left hand corner of the card??? O_o rofls.

I know, but that was what I was getting at before, people make assumptions about cards without reading them (hence the /hypocrisy). Granted, I could care less what somethings numbers are if its text box rocks. And I think that's the way we need to play this game.

Well I would agree about the maybe adding things on top of the Sora and the fact that Dark Riku was able to use Soul Eater won't help what I am about to say. Cause the forms could only be placed on a "Sora" Player Card, which all Sora cards are named "Sora" and nothing else cause even MerSora says on the card just plain "Sora" whilst the FC's say "Sora (Wisdom Form)" where they added something extra to his name. Though the fact that Dark Riku was able to use Soul Eater doesn't help this argument as much. But in actuallty they probably need to update the FC ruling and saying something like Characters can only have up to 1 FC placed upon there character, cause other characters in the game that will get FC's wont have multiples like Sora so they probably didn't think much about it at the moment and may have thought it obvious as to the fact only one FC per Player Card. And if it stays true to the game you would have to revert back. But the fact that they said FC's are not normal player cards could also say that because they are not normal they can't have FC's placed upon them and such, but idk I guess we will just be waiting for a ruling but to me it seems it should only have 1 FC at a time no matter how awesome the combo seems and such.

OH I follow ya. Yeah I agree I was just wondering what you were saying for a sec fairbank XD

Okay, I get that you've got a gut feeling about this. But I'm asking "why?" Like I said, Riku and Dark Riku using Soul Eater sets the precedent. The rulebook specifically says that form cards are player cards. The only reason for this not to work is that someone has a "feeling" that it's not right. And that's not how rulings are made.

I maintain that the rules allow for it, and it does no harm, so it should be this way. Otherwise we have rulings on top of rulings that are counter-intuitive to the rulebook.

"Along with these three types of Player Cards, players may also use Form Changes (FC) which do not count as normal Player Cards. Instead they represent different states that can be used to modify a Player Card. When a FC comes into play, it is placed directly on top of the existing Player Card. A Player may only use a FC containing the name of his/her Player Card. A FC can be discarded at any time."

I'm gonna have to say that you can't: the argument comes down to this:

I'm assuming 1 thing: in this paragraph they use the word "Player Card" to mean "Normal Player Card", which an FC is not- I'm assuming this because they go out of their way to explicitly state that FCs are not "Normal"

Now the other assumption is equally valid: that "Player Card" (within this paragraph) is an umbrella term that incompasses both "Normal" and "FC" Player Cards.

I do agree that if "Player Card" is used as an umbrella term you would be able to do it because of the Riku/Dark Riku situation.

I also agree that in general (for instance on cards such as pooh lvl 1) "Player Cards" do include FC. But That doesn't mean thats true within the rule book or this paragraph specifically. and I very much think FFG is capable of this type of inconsistancy.

So the way I see it both conclusions are equally valid, since they both rely on an assumption (Which is impossible to prove with whats writtin in the rules) and what tips the scale for me is theme. In the video game you can't for instance: leave valor form to end up in wisdom form.

So my vote goes to No you can't.

FFG WE NEED AN ERRATA!!!!! I know you can!!! Do exactly what you've done for games like twilight imperium and descent!!!!!

Seriously the ruling on RIku and Dark Riku being the same kinda pushes it into being a very likely thing. The ruling was (for any that aren't sure and to make sure I got the right ruling) that if a card contains part of a name (ex Dark "Riku") then that card can be targeted and/or use cards that are for that specific character. Another claim to that would be the equipment cards and Valor/Wisdom Form, it says "Sora" so if your weren't allowed you would not be able to equip that Kingdom Key, Oathkeeper, Oblivion, or Olympia (nor would Dark Riku), but yet they can.

I'm going to reiterate my argument from before. WayToTheDawn is not a normal person. This does not make him non-human. Also, seriously, look in the rulebook, the only mention of form cards that I found is under player cards.

Sorry but that normal person thing makes me think of something that I feel is not good to say but may technically count towards this lol.

You have an Average Person and a Above Average Person. They may both be human but the Average Person can still excell to become an Above Average Person, while the Above Average Person is already at his highest peak of where he can get at since he is Above Average already. And thats how the player cards kinda work. The Starting Player is like an Average Person whilst his forms are an Above Average state of being. Hopefully this gets through and it actually made sense.

As much as I like the idea of using forms like this, cause it would make my balanced deck work so much better, it just doesnt work that way lol.

(I actually changed it around from the way I was gonna say it before where I said it sounded bad cause I was gonna compare a Normal Person to a Retarded Person but I thought this way was nicer and actually could be explained easier.)

haha I agree it just doesn't make sense to be able to put another FC ontop of an existing one because of many of the arguments already presented above.

This is one of the few time where I'm actually going to say, someone check the video game for a card ruling. I think the source material is a good way to answer this question, cause FFG is lame on wording and rulings like this and you've made good arguments for both sides so even I don't think I could make a good decision.

Could he change from Form to Form without reverting to normal? Cause I don't remember...I'll get to this tonight if no one else has by then.

Well in the game you have to revert back cause your Drive Option in the menu changes to the words Revert.

Kiro13 said:

Well in the game you have to revert back cause your Drive Option in the menu changes to the words Revert.

Well there it is then.

Official Ruling: You cannot stack Form Cards on top of one another while they are in play.