Shouldn't all the bolt pistols and bolt guns listed in the Inquisitor's Handbook have the Tearing quality?
Bolt guns and Tearing in Inquisitor's Handbook
Well, maybe. Errata only refers to the bolters in the rulebook only. So, maybe not.
Yes...
The eratta say that all Bolt Weapons have the tearing trait
Santiago said:
Yes...
The eratta say that all Bolt Weapons have the tearing trait
Well to be fair it says All bolt weapons on that table should have the tearing trait, but I think its easily agreeable that all bolt weapons in the game should have the tearing quality since it's really a basic trait of that kind of weapon.
Personally i don't agree with the errata.
Bolt weapons shouldn't have tearing. Their base damage should be increased.
But then i don't think any weapon should have more than 1d10 as the random element.
All weapons should be 1d10+#, with the # representing the relative lethality, not this wierd 'Tearing' mechanic...
But, aye, as it stands i don't think its anything but obvious that all bolt weapons have Tearing.
karn987 said:
Well to be fair it says All bolt weapons on that table should have the tearing trait, but I think its easily agreeable that all bolt weapons in the game should have the tearing quality since it's really a basic trait of that kind of weapon.
Not to mention the fact that they all fire the same ammunition. Like the old saying goes: "Guns don't kill people, bullets do."
However there is one little quirk that comes to mind with Inquisitors Handbook and that is the Lathe Body Blower ammunition. According to the rules they change the bolt damage tye from X to I, and also gives the Tearing quality. But since the errata all bolt weapons recieve the tearing quality, and suddenly the Body Blower ammunition just doesn't hold that much bang for the buck.
Santiago said:
Yes...
The eratta say that all Bolt Weapons have the tearing trait
No, Sir! The errata says that "Ranged weapons on p130, all Bolt weapons should have the Tearing quality". Therefore, this provision only concerns those bolters on the p130 of the Rulebook, and not all Bolt weapons that exist.
egalor said:
Santiago said:
Yes...
The eratta say that all Bolt Weapons have the tearing trait
No, Sir! The errata says that "Ranged weapons on p130, all Bolt weapons should have the Tearing quality". Therefore, this provision only concerns those bolters on the p130 of the Rulebook, and not all Bolt weapons that exist.
It doesn't matter. It is clearly intended to regard all bolt weapons. They fire the same ammunition!
Varnias Tybalt said:
egalor said:
Santiago said:
Yes...
The eratta say that all Bolt Weapons have the tearing trait
No, Sir! The errata says that "Ranged weapons on p130, all Bolt weapons should have the Tearing quality". Therefore, this provision only concerns those bolters on the p130 of the Rulebook, and not all Bolt weapons that exist.
It doesn't matter. It is clearly intended to regard all bolt weapons. They fire the same ammunition!
Exactly. Hense why all bolt weapons use bolt ammunition, your not going to try and tell me a shell fired from gun A is going to do something so drastically different that it doesn't get tearing when it would from gun B right?
karn987 said:
Exactly. Hense why all bolt weapons use bolt ammunition, your not going to try and tell me a shell fired from gun A is going to do something so drastically different that it doesn't get tearing when it would from gun B right?
Well except for slight differences in range (which depends partly on the drive load of the ammunition and partly due to the length of the barrel of the gun), rate of fire (which have more to do with the weapon feed mechanism and structural integrity). The plus damage added to the d10 rolled probably indicates that there is some differences in the ammunition (like calibre, payload and driveload) like with the sacristian bolter that does slightly more damage than other bolt pistols but also requires the user to have a strength bonus of 4 to use it at optimum efficiency (probably due to the driveload being more powerful than average, making the recoil harder).
But all in all, it would be plain silly for only the weapons described in the rulebook to have the tearing quality, while no other models have it. They basically fire the same kind of ammunition (with only marginal differences in calibre, payload and driveload), having roughly the same kind of effect on their target.
Varnias Tybalt said:
karn987 said:
Exactly. Hense why all bolt weapons use bolt ammunition, your not going to try and tell me a shell fired from gun A is going to do something so drastically different that it doesn't get tearing when it would from gun B right?
Well except for slight differences in range (which depends partly on the drive load of the ammunition and partly due to the length of the barrel of the gun), rate of fire (which have more to do with the weapon feed mechanism and structural integrity). The plus damage added to the d10 rolled probably indicates that there is some differences in the ammunition (like calibre, payload and driveload) like with the sacristian bolter that does slightly more damage than other bolt pistols but also requires the user to have a strength bonus of 4 to use it at optimum efficiency (probably due to the driveload being more powerful than average, making the recoil harder).
But all in all, it would be plain silly for only the weapons described in the rulebook to have the tearing quality, while no other models have it. They basically fire the same kind of ammunition (with only marginal differences in calibre, payload and driveload), having roughly the same kind of effect on their target.
I tend to your opinion, Herr Varnias! Indeed it is most likely intended that all bolters have the Tearing quality. However, I would appreciate that FFG express themselves a bit more clearly, and not only in this case.
What makes you think all bolters fire the same ammunition? Yes, they all fire BOLTS, but there are minute differences that makes a bolt pistol a dangerous weapon while an astartes heavy bolter is something else entirely. as far sa the rules are concerned, each type of weapon or named item fires it's own ammunition, thus damage is different.
egalor said:
I tend to your opinion, Herr Varnias! Indeed it is most likely intended that all bolters have the Tearing quality. However, I would appreciate that FFG express themselves a bit more clearly, and not only in this case.
Well you could fire away an email to FFG's customer support (they have a "rules questions" department) and ask them. Or you could just do what I do and interpret the rules as I see fit. Being a Gamemaster is nice in that way that you dont have a very tight leash when interprating the rulebook. In fact if I wanted I could just toss the book out the window and say that bolters fire nuclear bombs that obliterate cities. 
But I won't of course, since that would be unreasonable. All bolters having the Tearing quality however is perfectly reasonable. Especially since it has been changed in the errata (only being forgotten to be included for IH as well), and the reason behind it was that bolters were simply "too sucky" without the tearing quality. They have a role to live up to, since it is one of the iconic 40K weapons, and they obviously didn't live up to that role without the tearing quality.
So don't worry my friend, im quite sure that your gameworld will not collapse to ruin if you let all bolters have the tearing quality. As long as the bullets make people explode, spreading gore and viscera in all direction as they are intended then no one will complain. 
Friend of the Dork said:
What makes you think all bolters fire the same ammunition? Yes, they all fire BOLTS, but there are minute differences that makes a bolt pistol a dangerous weapon while an astartes heavy bolter is something else entirely. as far sa the rules are concerned, each type of weapon or named item fires it's own ammunition, thus damage is different.
Yes, the astartes bolters are bigger, and they do more damage and are able to fire on full auto (even pistols and normal bolters). It has been described in Purge the Unclean as well. That's the difference between human bolters and astartes bolters. But it would be safe to assume that human models fire the same ammunition (all bolts are described as being of a 0.75 calibre with no differences), so any differences in efficiency would be minute at best. Not giving only some bolters the tearing quality while at the same time denying all other models from the same thing. The magic word here is "minute"...
Varnias Tybalt said:
Friend of the Dork said:
What makes you think all bolters fire the same ammunition? Yes, they all fire BOLTS, but there are minute differences that makes a bolt pistol a dangerous weapon while an astartes heavy bolter is something else entirely. as far sa the rules are concerned, each type of weapon or named item fires it's own ammunition, thus damage is different.
Yes, the astartes bolters are bigger, and they do more damage and are able to fire on full auto (even pistols and normal bolters). It has been described in Purge the Unclean as well. That's the difference between human bolters and astartes bolters. But it would be safe to assume that human models fire the same ammunition (all bolts are described as being of a 0.75 calibre with no differences), so any differences in efficiency would be minute at best. Not giving only some bolters the tearing quality while at the same time denying all other models from the same thing. The magic word here is "minute"...
The difference between a bolt pistol, bolter, and heavy bolter isn't really the rounds, but the gun it's self. Though I do believe the civilian bolters use a slightly smaller caliber round because I can't figure out how else they wouldn't break your wrist upon firing.
karn987 said:
The difference between a bolt pistol, bolter, and heavy bolter isn't really the rounds, but the gun it's self. Though I do believe the civilian bolters use a slightly smaller caliber round because I can't figure out how else they wouldn't break your wrist upon firing.
I think I can provide a reasonable explaination for that. Bolts are propelled sort of like a two stage rocket, first it seems you have a standard charge (like gunpowder in normal bullets), which gives the bolt a high muzzle velocity (like in a regular firearm), then during flight the miniature rocket motors kick in providing more thrust.
Basically it functions like a real world gyrojet gun (which fire miniature rockets), but unlike the gyrojet ammunition that relies only on the thrust of the rocket motor (giving the bullet a severely unpredictable flight path/accidental "screwcorking", and a ridiculously low muzzle velocity albeit a high velocity later on in the flight path due to the rocket having picked up more speed by then) it has a conventional propellant as well, with the rocket motor kicking in after the bullet has left the barrel of the gun, adding it's velocity to the primary muzzle velocity.
My guess here would be that civilian bolt pistols have reduced recoil due to the primary ignition chemicals (gunpowder or whatever they use for propellant) being of a smaller amount than the bolts used in bolters and heavy bolters. Meaning that bolts fired from a bolt pistol primarily rely on the miniature rocket motors for flight, while only using a small, necessary amount of "gunpowder" to make the bolt leave the barrel of the gun providing roughly the same high muzzle velocity, with the same calibre, but with less recoil and reduced range. While bolters and heavy bolters have a larger yield of "gunpowder", letting the bolt reach longer distances before the rocket motor kick in, giving the weapon a longer range, same stopping power but more recoil than the pistol.
Another factor that would reduce recoil is the "chunky" design of all bolt weapons. The heavier a weapon is, the more recoil it absorbs, and if you look at the pictures depicting bolt pistols and bolters they look like they do weigh quite a bit more than conventional firearms.
A third factor that would reduce recoil is the cycling mechanism of the gun in question. An open-bolt design further dampens the recoil since most of the recoil is used to push the bolt (the mechanical part in the gun, not the bullet) backwards, ejecting the spent shell-casing of the fired round and chambering the next round. I would expect that "civilian" bolters use an open-bolt mechanism (which further reduce recoil but make the gun slightly less accurate), while astartes bolters not only have a larger design and heavier calibre but also a closed-bolt system as well which would give the weapon arm-ripping recoil if a normal human tried to use it, but would also improve an Astartes bolter's accuracy and range.
A somewhat pseudo-scientific explaination, but we're talking science-fiction here so I hope that you'll agree to this explaination being reasonable at least. Also I can't say that my explaination is guaranteed to be canon, but I've reasoned that if I were to try to build a real bolter, then that's the approach I would take. 
Still, the Tearing quality discussed here would not stem from the gun, but the ammunition itself. All standard bolt rounds work by the same principle, a two staged rocket with a mass reactive core that explodes as soon as it has penetrated the target. I'd say that the tearing quality comes from the fact that you get a hot chunk of metal lodged in your body that explodes from within, sending sharp shrapnel that rips through your entire frame. Even the bolters described in Inquisitors Handbook work by this principle, so it's safe to assume that those bolters have the tearing quality as well.
Varnias Tybalt said:
karn987 said:
The difference between a bolt pistol, bolter, and heavy bolter isn't really the rounds, but the gun it's self. Though I do believe the civilian bolters use a slightly smaller caliber round because I can't figure out how else they wouldn't break your wrist upon firing.
I think I can provide a reasonable explaination for that. Bolts are propelled sort of like a two stage rocket, first it seems you have a standard charge (like gunpowder in normal bullets), which gives the bolt a high muzzle velocity (like in a regular firearm), then during flight the miniature rocket motors kick in providing more thrust.
Basically it functions like a real world gyrojet gun (which fire miniature rockets), but unlike the gyrojet ammunition that relies only on the thrust of the rocket motor (giving the bullet a severely unpredictable flight path/accidental "screwcorking", and a ridiculously low muzzle velocity albeit a high velocity later on in the flight path due to the rocket having picked up more speed by then) it has a conventional propellant as well, with the rocket motor kicking in after the bullet has left the barrel of the gun, adding it's velocity to the primary muzzle velocity.
My guess here would be that civilian bolt pistols have reduced recoil due to the primary ignition chemicals (gunpowder or whatever they use for propellant) being of a smaller amount than the bolts used in bolters and heavy bolters. Meaning that bolts fired from a bolt pistol primarily rely on the miniature rocket motors for flight, while only using a small, necessary amount of "gunpowder" to make the bolt leave the barrel of the gun providing roughly the same high muzzle velocity, with the same calibre, but with less recoil and reduced range. While bolters and heavy bolters have a larger yield of "gunpowder", letting the bolt reach longer distances before the rocket motor kick in, giving the weapon a longer range, same stopping power but more recoil than the pistol.
Another factor that would reduce recoil is the "chunky" design of all bolt weapons. The heavier a weapon is, the more recoil it absorbs, and if you look at the pictures depicting bolt pistols and bolters they look like they do weigh quite a bit more than conventional firearms.
A third factor that would reduce recoil is the cycling mechanism of the gun in question. An open-bolt design further dampens the recoil since most of the recoil is used to push the bolt (the mechanical part in the gun, not the bullet) backwards, ejecting the spent shell-casing of the fired round and chambering the next round. I would expect that "civilian" bolters use an open-bolt mechanism (which further reduce recoil but make the gun slightly less accurate), while astartes bolters not only have a larger design and heavier calibre but also a closed-bolt system as well which would give the weapon arm-ripping recoil if a normal human tried to use it, but would also improve an Astartes bolter's accuracy and range.
A somewhat pseudo-scientific explaination, but we're talking science-fiction here so I hope that you'll agree to this explaination being reasonable at least. Also I can't say that my explaination is guaranteed to be canon, but I've reasoned that if I were to try to build a real bolter, then that's the approach I would take.
Still, the Tearing quality discussed here would not stem from the gun, but the ammunition itself. All standard bolt rounds work by the same principle, a two staged rocket with a mass reactive core that explodes as soon as it has penetrated the target. I'd say that the tearing quality comes from the fact that you get a hot chunk of metal lodged in your body that explodes from within, sending sharp shrapnel that rips through your entire frame. Even the bolters described in Inquisitors Handbook work by this principle, so it's safe to assume that those bolters have the tearing quality as well.
*nods* Well that was well put. Heh, nicely done.
Also, you could house-rule the Lathe Body-Blowers to be more worth it for Bolts by taking a page from DotDG. There's Sorcery in there that will make a normal attack tearing and allows a tearing weapon to roll a third die for damage and pick the highest of the three. So using that the penetrators are less useless (and the extra penetration is not to be scoffed at against lots of armor. The range limitations and cost are).
numb3rc said:
Also, you could house-rule the Lathe Body-Blowers to be more worth it for Bolts by taking a page from DotDG. There's Sorcery in there that will make a normal attack tearing and allows a tearing weapon to roll a third die for damage and pick the highest of the three. So using that the penetrators are less useless (and the extra penetration is not to be scoffed at against lots of armor. The range limitations and cost are).
Or simply give them more PEN. I mean, lathe body blowers are described as being solid core ammunition without the explosive core that standard bolts have, and the strange lathe alloys seem to be described as being super-dense materials thar are formed due to the strange gravitic enviroment of The Lathes.
Sounds an awful lot like a kind of Armour Piercing rounds to me, which would increase the PEN value. But then we get to the strange bit: why would an armour piercing round provide a risk of knocking down it's target? Sure if the target wears armour, then it might provide a good smack, but if the target isnät wearing any, then a high penetration projectile should pretty much just pass through the body.
karn987 said:
*nods* Well that was well put. Heh, nicely done.
Thank you. I try my best. 
My impression was that the Lathe Body-Blowers replace the standard bolt ammunition with a solid slug and therefore would lose the Tearing quality.
bogi_khaosa said:
My impression was that the Lathe Body-Blowers replace the standard bolt ammunition with a solid slug and therefore would lose the Tearing quality.
It says black and white in the description that weapons loaded with hyper density penetrators GAIN the tearing quality.
Right-o. That's what I get for citing rules from memory, However, if it replaces the standard bolt ammo, it does not stand to reason that it get Tearing twice, since it is no longer firing an explosive bolt, but just a hyperdensity slug. Hence why it changes from X to I damage.
bogi_khaosa said:
Right-o. That's what I get for citing rules from memory, However, if it replaces the standard bolt ammo, it does not stand to reason that it get Tearing twice, since it is no longer firing an explosive bolt, but just a hyperdensity slug. Hence why it changes from X to I damage.
That's how it works yes, but it's also what I find to be strange about it. I mean, one of the reasons for buying hyper density penetrators in the first place is to get the extra Pen AND the tearing quality (they are pretty expensive as ammunition). But since FFG decided (with good reason) that bolters were simply to useless without tearing, and gave all bolters the tearing quality, people that have bought body blowers get a bit "cheated" out of a useful damage quality, and only pay the gross overprice to get some more PEN for their bolters, nothing more.
My suggestion is that the price listed for hyper density penetrators is reduced significantly, or that you give them some other boon in place of the tearing quality (which all bolters have anyway). Perhaps a higher PEN value or something in the line of that.
There's no reason why LBB shouldn't be a downgrade for a bolter, or at least highly specialized ammo (for knocking things over, really). There's lots of such niche ammo, from dum-dums to blazer skills. Since the LBB doesn't blow up, the bolter is basically just a big hand cannon in this case. It's for SP weapons mainly.