Measuring Firing arc and Range, p.7

This entry should include the following paragraph:

“If attack range is measured through a hull zone on the defender that is not the defending hull zone, the attacker does not have line of sight and must choose another target.”

I would like to add to Dras' explanation. I re-hash because this came up in a tourney for me:

RRG, Page 7: " Measuring Firing Arc and Range "

• When measuring firing arc, range, or distance, ignore squadrons’ activation sliders and ships’ shield dials and the plastic portions of the base that frame the shield dial.

So, for tractor beams, etc, component to component is only to the base, not plastic of shield dials.

A) The rules say to ignore the plastic around the shield dials but don't say to ignore the plastic around the main part of the ship, and

B) The FAQ says that the plastic around the main part of the ship does block LoS (and implies that it also obstructs)

I'd say there is too much inconsistency in Armada's official rules at the moment for me to be comfortable presenting what will look like an authoritative summary.

I would like to add to Dras' explanation. I re-hash because this came up in a tourney for me:

RRG, Page 7: " Measuring Firing Arc and Range "

• When measuring firing arc, range, or distance, ignore squadrons’ activation sliders and ships’ shield dials and the plastic portions of the base that frame the shield dial.

So, for tractor beams, etc, component to component is only to the base, not plastic of shield dials.

Considering:

A) The rules say to ignore the plastic around the shield dials but don't say to ignore the plastic around the main part of the ship, and

B) The FAQ says that the plastic around the main part of the ship does block LoS (and implies that it also obstructs)

I'd say there is too much inconsistency in Armada's official rules at the moment for me to be comfortable presenting what will look like an authoritative summary.

Its easy.

Is it an Attack?

Cardboard to cardboard.

(Because the measurement is Hull Zone to Hull Zone , and Hull Zone is only on Cardboard )

Is it not an attack?

Plastic to Plastic.

(Because Ship to Ship, Component to Component, and the Plastic Portion of the base (sans the shield dial frame) is Part of the Ship.)

This keeps getting more complicated.

Current FAQ, p. 5:

"The ship’s entire plastic base blocks line of sight, excluding the plastic portions that frame shield dials. The shield dials

also do not block or obstruct line of sight."

But the rules say that the only thing that blocks LoS is crossing the wrong defender hull section first, and hull sections are defined in the rules as the cardboard only.

So either

1. The first sentence above is meaningless and has no game effect.

or

2. The rules as written are incorrect, and hull sections actually extend all the way to the edges of the plastic.

or

3. The rules as written are incomplete, and hull sections extend all the way to the edges of the plastic for purposes of testing LoS (but not for measuring range).

#1 is obviously not intended. #2 is cleanest but the biggest change. #3 is needlessly complex.

It looks like #3 to me.

::sigh::

Yes.

We have a game where the most strict literal reading of the rules means you can never shoot. Ever. Because your own base blocks your line of sight.

The easiest solution is this (italic emphasis mine)... Take the following RRG passage:

RRG, Page 6: "Hull Zones"

Hull Zones

A hull zone is a section of a ship token delineated by the two firing arc lines that border it. It does not include any part of the plastic base.

• Each ship has four hull zones: front, left, right, and rear. • Squadrons do not have hull zones. • A hull zone is adjacent to another hull zone if those zones share a firing arc line.

And then:

Interpret the Italic portion to essentially mean that, whenever the line of sight or measurement is involving a hull zone... THE PLASTIC BASE SIMPLY DOES NOT EXIST AT ALL.

This Means, on the Attacker, and the Defender, your Plastic Base does not exist, and you are able to measure... HOWEVER... The Plastic bases of other intervening ships will still block LOS, as per the FAQ statement on what blocks LOS....

Interpret the Italic portion to essentially mean that, whenever the line of sight or measurement is involving a hull zone... THE PLASTIC BASE SIMPLY DOES NOT EXIST AT ALL.

This Means, on the Attacker, and the Defender, your Plastic Base does not exist, and you are able to measure... HOWEVER... The Plastic bases of other intervening ships will still block LOS, as per the FAQ statement on what blocks LOS....

I think you're confusing two things. Intervening ships never block Line of Sight. They can only obstruct an attack. (And it's simple and not contradictory with the rulebook to use the whole main plastic to test obstruction. We both interpret that part the same way.)

However, there is only one thing to my knowledge that can block a shot: if you're shooting a ship and one of its other hull zones is in the way. FAQ 2.2.1 (the current one, about two months old) says "The ship’s entire plastic base blocks line of sight, excluding the plastic portions that frame shield dials." That directly contradicts you, so I have to side with it. OTOH, it also contradicts itself where it says "If line of sight or attack range is traced through a hull zone on the defender that is not the defending zone, the attacker does not have line of sight and must choose another target." Because (as you have correctly pointed out) hull zones stop where the cardboard stops.

See my problem?

Honestly?

No.

No I don't.

I can't see the problem as you see it, as I am willing to play the game in such a way as you get to play the game .

Perhaps thats a rule-fudge towards intention and away from literal ...

I'm okay with that.

Because my core rule of rules design is don't break the game .

Interpret the Italic portion to essentially mean that, whenever the line of sight or measurement is involving a hull zone... THE PLASTIC BASE SIMPLY DOES NOT EXIST AT ALL.

This Means, on the Attacker, and the Defender, your Plastic Base does not exist, and you are able to measure... HOWEVER... The Plastic bases of other intervening ships will still block LOS, as per the FAQ statement on what blocks LOS....

I think you're confusing two things. Intervening ships never block Line of Sight. They can only obstruct an attack. (And it's simple and not contradictory with the rulebook to use the whole main plastic to test obstruction. We both interpret that part the same way.)

However, there is only one thing to my knowledge that can block a shot: if you're shooting a ship and one of its other hull zones is in the way. FAQ 2.2.1 (the current one, about two months old) says "The ship’s entire plastic base blocks line of sight, excluding the plastic portions that frame shield dials." That directly contradicts you, so I have to side with it. OTOH, it also contradicts itself where it says "If line of sight or attack range is traced through a hull zone on the defender that is not the defending zone, the attacker does not have line of sight and must choose another target." Because (as you have correctly pointed out) hull zones stop where the cardboard stops.

See my problem?

I get what you are saying, but what you are suggesting means every attack is obstructed because its LOS crosses its own plastic mold. And we know that is not how the game is played because there is so much supportive evidence to prove you don't block LOS from your plastic base.

For example, ships with 1 AA never get to shoot following your logic. Ships with 1 anti-ship armament never get to attack. And every attack that doesn't get cancelled is obstructed.

I support literal interpretations of the rules and following them. But I also like to be able to play the game...

You can shoot FFG a question, but I doubt they will respond because this is one of those "Clearly you are taking this too literally and would mean the entire system is broke."

So just roll with it and play normally.

I don't know where you got the idea that I think the FAQ says "you can't shoot through plastic, ever, so technically no ship can ever shoot anything". That would be dumb. I'm talking about the base of the targeted ship only. Not the attacker. Not others.

How do you interpret the p. 5 FAQ ruling I quoted? What situation do you think it applies to, and do you honor or ignore it?

I don't know where you got the idea that I think the FAQ says "you can't shoot through plastic, ever, so technically no ship can ever shoot anything". That would be dumb. I'm talking about the base of the targeted ship only. Not the attacker. Not others.

How do you interpret the p. 5 FAQ ruling I quoted? What situation do you think it applies to, and do you honor or ignore it?

I have no idea what you are trying to get at. I've never had a problem with LOS rules and I'd think you are trying to create a problem where there is none.

You have to rephrase what you are asking but I am coming up with nothing. I don't know what problem you are seeing, but saying the plastic blocks LOS on the defender would mean every shot is obstructed and we know this is not how the game is played.

I have no idea what you are trying to get at. I've never had a problem with LOS rules and I'd think you are trying to create a problem where there is none.

Q: Which parts of a ship’s base block line of sight?

A: The ship’s entire plastic base blocks line of sight, excluding the plastic portions that frame shield dials. The shield dials also do not block or obstruct line of sight.

I'm trying to figure out when the first sentence of that answer applies, since I want to update my pictoral clarification to account for all current official rulings.

Simply Put?

It doesn't apply.

I can think of no time that the plastic base "blocks line of sight".

Plenty of times when it Obstructs line of Sight.

But never Blocks it.

Ever.

I believe this is a mis-worded ruling.

Attempting to apply this ruling in any circumstance breaks the game. The game simply cannot be played if you apply this ruling in any circumstance .

Ignore it. Continue on.

I have no idea what you are trying to get at. I've never had a problem with LOS rules and I'd think you are trying to create a problem where there is none.

Current FAQ, page 5, very first item:

Q: Which parts of a ship’s base block line of sight?

A: The ship’s entire plastic base blocks line of sight, excluding the plastic portions that frame shield dials. The shield dials also do not block or obstruct line of sight.

I'm trying to figure out when the first sentence of that answer applies, since I want to update my pictoral clarification to account for all current official rulings.

So I searched "block" in the RRG, FAQ, and LTP. In all, there are only 7 cases of "block" and 6 of them refer to LOS. No where does it say if something "blocks" LOS you cannot shoot.

What you said earlier "But the rules say that the only thing that blocks LoS is crossing the wrong defender hull section first, and hull sections are defined in the rules as the cardboard only." is not true. The rules say "If line of sight is traced through a hull zone on the defender that is not the defending zone, the attacker does not have line of sight and must choose another target"

LOS is not "blocked". You simply don't have LOS.

So now that we cleared that up, the FAQ question likely refers to shooting across or through another ship. So if you trace LOS close a ship, not across the hull, but over the plastic, the attack is treated as obstructed.

This is how I've always played it, and everyone I've wachted play and played against has done this.

But like Dras keeps saying, if you think it actually blocks LOS, you cannot play the game. Maybe they made a typo, but I don't think they did. Seems more like a new player asked a question if shooting through a ship, what blocks LOS.

So I searched "block" in the RRG, FAQ, and LTP. In all, there are only 7 cases of "block" and 6 of them refer to LOS. No where does it say if something "blocks" LOS you cannot shoot.

What you said earlier "But the rules say that the only thing that blocks LoS is crossing the wrong defender hull section first, and hull sections are defined in the rules as the cardboard only." is not true. The rules say "If line of sight is traced through a hull zone on the defender that is not the defending zone, the attacker does not have line of sight and must choose another target"

LOS is not "blocked". You simply don't have LOS.

But like Dras keeps saying, if you think it actually blocks LOS, you cannot play the game. Maybe they made a typo, but I don't think they did. Seems more like a new player asked a question if shooting through a ship, what blocks LOS.

The most likely alternative is as you suggest: that the FAQ is wrong and mentions blocking when it should have mentioned obstructing.

EDIT: Or a weird third option where this is yet another difference between rules for attacks and rules for ship/card effects.

I'll see if I can get an official answer.

WORST.ARMADA.RULE.EVER.COM

And it's completely fixed and easy to understand and execute with one simple change to the stupid arc/LOS/range calculations. Arc, LOS, range are all calculated from one LOS dot to LOS dot. Fixed! Easy! 0 problems ever!

This is great, thanks. The rules for determining range always seemed fuzzy to me but its actually a lot simpler than the rules make them sound.

WORST.ARMADA.RULE.EVER.COM

And it's completely fixed and easy to understand and execute with one simple change to the stupid arc/LOS/range calculations. Arc, LOS, range are all calculated from one LOS dot to LOS dot. Fixed! Easy! 0 problems ever!

Have you tried that? Bloody huge arcs and easy peasy double arcing.

WORST.ARMADA.RULE.EVER.COM

And it's completely fixed and easy to understand and execute with one simple change to the stupid arc/LOS/range calculations. Arc, LOS, range are all calculated from one LOS dot to LOS dot. Fixed! Easy! 0 problems ever!

Have you tried that? Bloody huge arcs and easy peasy double arcing.

Yeah, this change doesn't actually work as well as it seems like it would. It also leads to much less variety in the ships, since all of the tokens of a given size (S/M/L) have the dots in the same location, so the arc lines have only a very minimal impact on threatened area.

Not to be pedantic, can I ask for a clarification.

In the first image, and throughout the game, the Hull Zone/Firing Arc lines project out to infinity for the 'Attacker' only correct? And are only used for determining Firing Arc? In other words, in Image 1, is the ISD Left Hull Zone in the Corvette's Front Arc?

Yes it is. I'm not sure if dot to dot is clear though.

Not to be pedantic, can I ask for a clarification.

In the first image, and throughout the game, the Hull Zone/Firing Arc lines project out to infinity for the 'Attacker' only correct? And are only used for determining Firing Arc? In other words, in Image 1, is the ISD Left Hull Zone in the Corvette's Front Arc?

"Is the left hull of the ISD in the Corvettes Front Arc"

No it is not. Dot Point 1 shows that the Front Arc of the Corvette can only see the Front Hull Zone of the ISD.........

The Hull Zone ends at the end of the Cardboard. The Hull Zone does not extend beyond that portion of the base.

The Firing Arcs of the Left Hull Zone of the Defending ISD do also extend indefinitely - but Firing Arcs themselves are pointless on a Defender.... You can draw line of sight to the enemy Firing Arc, but it means nothing... You are only concerned with the enemy Hull Zone , and the Hull Zone is the cardboard that is delineated by the Firing Arcs.

I only have about three games under my belt, but I still have a hard time wrapping my head around how in Figure 2 the right of the CR90 can fire at the Left of the Victory, but not vice versa.

It's wierd to me that firing arc lines don't obstruct the parent ship's line of sight, which sucks as I have to teach the game to my gaming partners to ever play it, so I can't have ambiguities.

I only have about three games under my belt, but I still have a hard time wrapping my head around how in Figure 2 the right of the CR90 can fire at the Left of the Victory, but not vice versa.

It's wierd to me that firing arc lines don't obstruct the parent ship's line of sight, which sucks as I have to teach the game to my gaming partners to ever play it, so I can't have ambiguities.

It's a pretty common point of misunderstanding. From a game design perspective I'm not sure how I feel about it, but it is what it is. The easiest way to present it:

The colored lines on the target ship block shots; the ones on the attacker do not.

Aargh... It confuses me a bunch, as I'm pretty sure a situation exactly like Figure 2 came up in my last game, and the spot ruling we came up with was that the Corvette side arc didin't have the left side of the Vic as a viable target, as it seemed to make sense to either of us that the front line of the right fire arc, continued indefinitely, would only leave the rear of the SD as a viable target as it runs directly into the end of the rear line of the SD's left fire arc as printed on the base, if that makes sense.

It might be bad form to use different games as reference, but Figure 2 automatically seems counterintuitive to me as it would be like letting a ship in X-Wing fire at a target outside of it's front 90* fire arc. In the absence of this ruling, only how the angle of how the Corvette in Figure 3 is sitting would (in my mind, anyway) set up a situation where the right 0f the CR90 could fire at the left of the Vic (and vice versa).