On 2/4/2018 at 11:59 PM, Green Knight said:

Your example illustrates that the designers know what they are doing - and that the rules/faq are solid, if a little hard to understand.

In the above image the rear hull zone is in arc. The Los check is also valid, because it does NOT pass through the side zone.

So without the range check the cr could take that shot, which seems odd.

I don't think anyone is complaining that they have "faqqed out" the ability to take that shot. The issue to me is the way they did it, which makes this shot illegal as well:

Post-FAQ, you CAN'T take that shot, which to me seems equally odd.

Looking at this issue another thought came to me regarding squadrons. Consider if a squad is in double arc of a ship, but such that it is more to one side. To what extent, or is there any positioning, where the range rule faq affects flakking by the ship and vice versa bombing by the squadron?

my understanding is:

check arc

check los from yellow dot to closest point of squad base

check range from closest point on hull zone to closest point on squad base

sry no vassal atm otherwise I would try to fool around with pictures

11 hours ago, Muelmuel said:

Consider if a squad is in double arc of a ship, but such that it is more to one side. To what extent, or is there any positioning, where the range rule faq affects flakking by the ship and vice versa bombing by the squadron?

For the ship attacking the squadron this FAQ doesn't change anything. The FAQ change states:

Quote

If line of sight or attack range is traced through a hull zone on the defender...

Squadrons don't have hull zones (RR p6), so you can never trace line of sight or attack range through a hull zone on the defender.

Going the other way, with a squadron attacking a ship, this FAQ rule could stop an attack in theory. However, I don't think it would be possible on any of the existing ships due to the geometry (if range was measured through a different hull zone, so would Line of Sight be); you'd need a ship hull zone where the yellow dot for Line of Sight was further from the centre of the ship than the line, perpendicular to the hull zone boundary, drawn from where that boundary meets the edge of the ship card. Even the ISD, Quasar and Liberty-type don't have that big a hull zone.

This happens because Line of Sight and Range are both measured on lines going through the same point on the Squadron (the centre).

Woo, maths.

24 minutes ago, Grumbleduke said:

For the ship attacking the squadron this FAQ doesn't change anything. The FAQ change states:

Squadrons don't have hull zones (RR p6), so you can never trace line of sight or attack range through a hull zone on the defender.

Going the other way, with a squadron attacking a ship, this FAQ rule could stop an attack in theory. However, I don't think it would be possible on any of the existing ships due to the geometry (if range was measured through a different hull zone, so would Line of Sight be); you'd need a ship hull zone where the yellow dot for Line of Sight was further from the centre of the ship than the line, perpendicular to the hull zone boundary, drawn from where that boundary meets the edge of the ship card. Even the ISD, Quasar and Liberty-type don't have that big a hull zone.

This happens because Line of Sight and Range are both measured on lines going through the same point on the Squadron (the centre).

Woo, maths.

I know that Geometrically, the line when extended passes through the center of the squadron... I do...

Its just... urgh. We can't actually reference that in regards to the rules, as that is not the point that is actually measured to or from on a Squadron...

One of those... Technically incorrect dealies...

2 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

One of those... Technically incorrect dealies...

Hmm. I thought I was careful enough with the wording to get around that problem - I deliberately didn't say that they were both measured from the centre. But you're right; I'd still assumed the line was extended , without being clear about that. Thinking too much in terms of maths, where lines are infinite, rather than in Armada when we're dealing with line segments.

That said, I think we can reference that the line, when extended, goes through the centre. I'm pretty certain we're allowed to take the principles of Euclidean geometry as given.

Although now I'm thinking about whether you could set up an Armada game with non-Euclidean geometry; either on a non-flat surface (I can't find anywhere in the rules that insists the Play Area be flat), or merely a Play Area with a non-standard metric. Probably need to limit that to computer versions, though, given how difficult measuring things would be.

8 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

I know that Geometrically, the line when extended passes through the center of the squadron... I do...

Its just... urgh. We can't actually reference that in regards to the rules, as that is not the point that is actually measured to or from on a Squadron...

One of those... Technically incorrect dealies...

I'm quite sure I've posted the illustration of why you can't measure from the center post before. It's a pretty subtle difference, but it does matter.

The blue line is measured correctly. The red line is not. The shortest distance between the squadron base and the target hull zone is not always the same as the closest point between the center post and the LoS dot, because the LoS dot does not always lie on the line perpendicular to the edge of the hull zone.

8 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

I know that Geometrically, the line when extended passes through the center of the squadron... I do...

Not necessarily. This would be true only if LoS were measured from the yellow dot to the closest point on the squadron base to the yellow dot . But it's not, because that would be too easy.

Quote

• When tracing line of sight to or from a squadron, trace the line using the point of the squadron’s base that is closest to the opposing squadron or hull zone .

So first, you have to locate the spot on the squadron closest to the target hull zone--which does always cross through the center post, so you can use the post for that measurement. That's the dotted yellow line in the diagram.

Then, from that spot-- not from the center post--you measure LoS to the yellow dot.

I honestly wish they would just errata this. It's a terrible way to measure LoS when there's another way so obvious that almost everyone defaults to doing it the wrong way...

Yes, I should have added a weasel modifier, like “90% of the time” ?

buy it that is my point, any time you reference the center of a squad for measurements or arc, you’ve done it wrong and it can’t be used ?

So.... the only time when the LoS line actually goes through the centre (when extended) would be when the Squadron was directly opposite the yellow dot. I.e. almost never.

However, that would mean that Range and LoS are both measured from the same point on the edge; there's some logic in that...

Also means I think the point about the FAQ obstructed-if-range rule still holds. It's late so I may be wrong, but I think measuring LoS from the edge point not the centre will make it even more likely that LoS will go through a second hull zone if the range does.

27 minutes ago, Grumbleduke said:

Also means I think the point about the FAQ obstructed-if-range rule still holds. It's late so I may be wrong, but I think measuring LoS from the edge point not the centre will make it even more likely that LoS will go through a second hull zone if the range does.

Yeah, with squadrons I don't think it's possible to have an issue where range crosses a different arc but LoS does not. That's an artifact of LoS and range being measured from different points on a hull zone, which is not the case on squadrons.

If I want to attack a ship with a squadron, do I need to check LoS with that yellow dot on the ship's base? The rulebook clearly states on pg. 19, that this yellow dot is only for ships that determine LoS.
The rules reference doesn't cleary say if it's for ships or squadrons either.

5 hours ago, Ragewizzl said:

If I want to attack a ship with a squadron, do I need to check LoS with that yellow dot on the ship's base? The rulebook clearly states on pg. 19, that this yellow dot is only for ships that determine LoS.
The rules reference doesn't cleary say if it's for ships or squadrons either.

Yes you have.

RRG p7 Line of sight

When tracing line of sight to or from a hull zone, trace the line using the yellow targeting point printed in that hull zone.

New question about something that I think was FAQ'd a while ago, but suddenly become a real issue when playing this afternoon.

Quote

Mmeasuring Firing Arc and Range, p.7
This entry should include the following paragraph:
“When measuring attack range for a ship, ignore any portion of the defender that is outside the attacking hull zone’s firing arc, even if that portion is at a closer range.”

Do people, Tournaments, play the above RAW, measuring firing range to nearest in-arc point on defender rather than nearest defender hull point being attacked?

An example:

Cymoon and GR75 are approaching head-on, GR75 to the Cymoon's left, positioned to come alongside and pass. The Cymoon just barely had front arc on the GR75 left hull, the arc line cutting just a millimeter or two (literally) within the left hull forward of the GR75's rear most corner. It's medium range, measuring from Cymoon front arc to nearest point on GR75 left hull. But it's long range measuring Cymoon front to GR75 rear-most point where the Cymoon front arc touches the GR75.

My opponent ( @racknut ) pointed this out, but I disputed and we couldn't find the ruling easily, so I fired with full attack pool for medium range (blues and reds). But RAW per FAQ I should have only used red dice. It's in the FAQ, and yet I don't think I've ever measured this way.

Is this really how people play, whether for fun or competition?

Here's an illustration of the scenario:

https://imgur.com/a/PkWX2wW

Attack range must be measured in firing arc. This has been in the faq for a very long time.

In your example the Cymoon is at long range front to side.

And that's how firing range distance measurements are actually done in tournaments?

If this is how it is, I'll incorporate it into my gameplay. I just keep looking for ways to speed up my gameplay, and I keep finding additional fussy rules that slow down my gameplay.

18 hours ago, ShoutingMan said:

And that's how firing range distance measurements are actually done in tournaments?

It should be.

18 hours ago, ShoutingMan said:

And that's how firing range distance measurements are actually done in tournaments?

If this is how it is, I'll incorporate it into my gameplay. I just keep looking for ways to speed up my gameplay, and I keep finding additional fussy rules that slow down my gameplay.

Why would it not be?

It's been like this for ages now.

Its easy enough to measure - just keep inside the firing arc!

Thanks for the feedback. While it's old hat to many apparently, it's not at all obvious from the rules or reference, and I've not read the FAQ's closely except for when I hear about something big like the Rhymer nerf or Avenger revision. I'm a longtime 'eurogamer', but this is my first "miniatures" game.

21 hours ago, ShoutingMan said:

Thanks for the feedback. While it's old hat to many apparently, it's not at all obvious from the rules or reference, and I've not read the FAQ's closely except for when I hear about something big like the Rhymer nerf or Avenger revision. I'm a longtime 'eurogamer', but this is my first "miniatures" game.

I think it's probably more obvious to people who play Vassal frequently: the range templates Vassal uses make it super clear that you're only measuring within arc for range.

4 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

I think it's probably more obvious to people who play Vassal frequently: the range templates Vassal uses make it super clear that you're only measuring within arc for range.

I tried to setup Vassal but I couldn't figure it out. I'll have to give it another try when time allows.

9 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

I think it's probably more obvious to people who play Vassal frequently: the range templates Vassal uses make it super clear that you're only measuring within arc for range.

We even played with the wrong templates for a while ?

13 hours ago, Green Knight said:

We even played with the wrong templates for a while ?

For so long that, with a quick 1-minute Google Images search, I couldn't find a single good example screenshot of a game with the right template in use. Totally stole that image from your Armada Vassal For Editors video on Youtube...

17 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

For so long that, with a quick 1-minute Google Images search, I couldn't find a single good example screenshot of a game with the right template in use. Totally stole that image from your Armada Vassal For Editors video on Youtube...

That explains why it looked so familiar lol

Bump. Reading through this again.