There's nothing rediculous about the LtP saying 1) check arc 2) "in addition" [to being in arc] the target must be in range.

There's nothing rediculous about the LtP saying 1) check arc 2) "in addition" [to being in arc] the target must be in range.

I agrea. No one is saying otherwise. The point we apperently don't agrea upon is how that range is measured.

If the target hull zone is not in the arc then no shot.

If the target hull zone is not in range then no shot.

If you don't have line of sight to the target hull zone then no shot.

So all conditions are "in addition to" the other conditions.

The rules allso tell us how each condition is evaluated. For range it tells us to measure the closest point between the two hullzones. No more, no less.

I agrea it can be a bit unintuitive, especialy for me coming from X-Wing where range is measured from within the firing arc. That much is clear from my first responces in this thread. But after setting my presumptions aside and reading the rules with an open mind, it is clear I was wrong. Range in this game is measured without taking arc into acount. If that is as the devs intended or not is an other question.

The quote from the L2P does not support you assertion that the range measurement has to remain in arc.

Again there are 3 separate things the rules tell you to check for. None are dependent on each other beyond the fact that all three need to be true for an attack to be made.

You are suggesting reading rules into the rules that are not there. If FFG wants to add them they are free to, but presently nothing in the rules suggests that your range measurement is not the closest point from the attacking hullzone to the closest point of the defending hullzone as the rules directly state; but instead the closest point of the attacking hull zone to the closest point of the defending hull zone that falls within the attack hull-zones arc of fire.

Those are two very different statements, but most importantly one is what the rules actually say on the subject, the other is not.

The quote from the L2P does not support you assertion that the range measurement has to remain in arc.

Again there are 3 separate things the rules tell you to check for. None are dependent on each other beyond the fact that all three need to be true for an attack to be made.

You are suggesting reading rules into the rules that are not there. If FFG wants to add them they are free to, but presently nothing in the rules suggests that your range measurement is not the closest point from the attacking hullzone to the closest point of the defending hullzone as the rules directly state; but instead the closest point of the attacking hull zone to the closest point of the defending hull zone that falls within the attack hull-zones arc of fire.

Those are two very different statements, but most importantly one is what the rules actually say on the subject, the other is not.

What DO the rules say? 1) check arc. 2) In addition to arc, check range.

The rules don't say you can check range outside of your arc - you're reading that into the rules.

Hence: clarification is needed.

In addition is just a connector to say you must also be in range. It doesn't mean that the range measurement follows the same perimeters as the arc.

The RRG then stipulates what the perimeters are for each criteria.

But I think we all agree, either way FFG should clarify their intent.

The quote from the L2P does not support you assertion that the range measurement has to remain in arc.

Again there are 3 separate things the rules tell you to check for. None are dependent on each other beyond the fact that all three need to be true for an attack to be made.

You are suggesting reading rules into the rules that are not there. If FFG wants to add them they are free to, but presently nothing in the rules suggests that your range measurement is not the closest point from the attacking hullzone to the closest point of the defending hullzone as the rules directly state; but instead the closest point of the attacking hull zone to the closest point of the defending hull zone that falls within the attack hull-zones arc of fire.

Those are two very different statements, but most importantly one is what the rules actually say on the subject, the other is not.

So where do the rules say that you CAN measure range outside of arc? They don't.

What DO the rules say? 1) check arc. 2) In addition to arc, check range.

The rules don't say you can check range outside of your arc - you're reading that into the rules.

Hence: clarification is needed.

Well, I guess you could go off of the inset picture on page 14 of the Learn to Play book. It shows a VSD measuring arc and range against an X-wing squadron and a Corvette.

"1. The X-wing is at close range, but outside the left firing arc of the Victory II-class."

The guide is saying the X-wing is at close range, despite the X-wing not being within the firing arc. Since there must have been some way to measure the range, and we know the rules say you check range between the two closest points, in this example they must have measured range outside of the firing arc.

So where do the rules say that you CAN measure range outside of arc? They don't.

It's the other way around : where do they say you can't ?

The rules ask you to check arc, so you check arc.

They also ask you to measure range, so you measure range.

Nowhere do they say to measure range within the arc.

No need to look for a restriction that does not exist

Just to chime in on this and agree with what most people are saying: range, LoS & arc are three independent conditions, but they must all apply to take the shot (i.e. range is NOT limited by firing arc). Page 7 of RR is pretty clear on this - nowhere does it say that range must be part within arc.

It's always good when someone's forum name fits so well.

The original image is so well done!!! Thank you for posting! I spent about 15 minutes in my last game going over this with my opponent and it really interrupted the flow of the game.

So where do the rules say that you CAN measure range outside of arc? They don't.

It's the other way around : where do they say you can't ?

The rules ask you to check arc, so you check arc.

They also ask you to measure range, so you measure range.

Nowhere do they say to measure range within the arc.

No need to look for a restriction that does not exist

mmm

Page 2:

Under Attack, section 1 1st bullet,

"..., the defending squadron or hull zone must be inside the attacking hull zone's firing arc and at attack range of the attacking hull zone. "

Page 7

Under Measuring Fire Arc and Range, 2nd paragraph

"To measure attack range from a ship, measure from the closest point of the attacking hull zone."

Seems to me range is measured from inside arc just like X-Wing...

EDIT: Oh wait, I see what you are saying, it is possible for a ship to be aligned in such a way that the closets point between the attacking hull zone and the defending hull zone is outside of the arc of the attacker. In that case, yeah you measure from the attacking to defending hull zone outside of the arc.

I still think range should be measured in arc, but we'll have to wait for an FAQ to clarify the point.

We get that you think that. But the rules don't say that. Which is the crux of the issue.

They don't say you can measure out of arc either. So can we just wait for the FAQ and play it how it's ruled?

Yes they do.

For the third time now. If the rules were meant to convey that the range measurement had to end within the firing arc, then they would need to say so. As opposed to just telling us to take the closest point to the closest point. Those are two different things. They are not synonymous.

By telling you to take the closest point to closest point and not the closest point to the closest point within the firing arc, the rules are telling you the range measurement is independent of the firing arc.

If FFG means it to have to stay within the arc, then they need to errata the rules to say so. Because currently they do not.

Think how you wish but you are going to have issues continuing this approach to any ruleset.

They don't say you can measure out of arc either. So can we just wait for the FAQ and play it how it's ruled?

They don't say you can meassure to a wedge shaped ship either, I guess that means I can't shot at Star Destroyers...

FWIW, RRG 2

I could easily see reading this as you must check range in arc.

This is admittedly from the Learn-to-Play and not the Rules Reference, but:

The X-wing was determined to be at close range despite being outside of the arc. To determine the X-wing was at close range, they would have had to measure range separately from the arc limits.

This is admittedly from the Learn-to-Play and not the Rules Reference, but:

The X-wing was determined to be at close range despite being outside of the arc. To determine the X-wing was at close range, they would have had to measure range separately from the arc limits.

All, I'm saying is the way its written in the RRG makes it a question worth asking at least. Otherwise I'm all with you guys.

I could easily see reading this as you must check range in arc.

This is admittedly from the Learn-to-Play and not the Rules Reference, but: The X-wing was determined to be at close range despite being outside of the arc. To determine the X-wing was at close range, they would have had to measure range separately from the arc limits.

No one is saying that ships are never not at a given range to each other (forgive the double negative). Ships are either at close, medium, long, or beyond long range any time they are on the board. When you set up the first turn, ships are generally beyond long range of each other. All I'm saying is that when you're attacking, range for the attack needs to be measured within the firing arc. And notice the target ship in the arc of the firing ship.

I'll play it however the FAQ says, but consider range and LOS. LOS gets an exception for arc (LOS can be drawn over parts of your own ship, which can be outside of arc) that range does not seem to get. I could be wrong, but that's how I read it.

Range is measured in arc - errata in the new FAQ.

I'm happy to finally see a FAQ and a resolution of this issue. It's even in the Errata rather than in the FAQ, stressing how muddled the original rulebooks were written.

I'm happy to finally see a FAQ and a resolution of this issue. It's even in the Errata rather than in the FAQ, stressing how muddled the original rulebooks were written.

I wouldn't say the rules reference is muddled. So few errata shows that it is generally well constructed. For any complex rule set there will be issues that come up. Overall, I think FFG did a great job with the RR.

The learn to play book on the other hand . . . kill that **** with fire.

I think they made it more complex than it needed to be with the LOS Dot, but we have what we have, and now we have the clarification we needed.

I think they made it more complex than it needed to be with the LOS Dot, but we have what we have, and now we have the clarification we needed.

I like it myself. Prevents issue with measuring LOS from somewhere else to get to the hull zone you want, or avoid obstacles. However they should have just made everything relative to the dot to simplify. Would have been simple to redraw arcs from the LOS point.