So, why no martial arts skills, or effective systems for using hand to hand combat over melee weapons? I can't imagine the arts aren't practiced somewhere in the Imperium and if it is useful - yet not heretical - it would seem odd the Imperium wouldn't have made some use of it. Has anyone bothered to come up with an additional Martial Arts system for DH? What are your thoughts?

Well no matter how skilled you are with your fists you will probably still have trouble with armor. Right now the only good way to fight "unarmed" would be with some of the psychic powers that considerably buff up your unarmed blows or perhaps using bionic arms with built in melee weapons. As fists can't rend/tear/shock/have any penetration value and other things, I think it was decided that it wasn't worth designing martial arts.

However, I can definitely see use in martial arts for subduing people rather than damaging them. Perhaps someone has made some homebrew rules but I am not aware of any myself.

I've been thinking the same thing. I mean, even if the opponents wear armour, and hand-to-hand punches and kicks might not be all that great, there are so much more to martial arts, like sleeper-holds and snapping necks. One would think that the Assassins at least would've access to moves like that, but no...

The simplest thing is to give traits or talents as melee strikes. Like natural weapons, duel strike etc.

Hellebore

Jack of Tears said:

I did. I think it might still be on dark reign, if not I'll see if I can dig it out and post it.

EDIT:- Although all I did was effectively what Hellebore suggests and combine specific skills and talents into Calixis specific martial arts (with a little background) that were treated as Advanced Skills Packages. It wasn't really a totally new system.

Here's the first of the 3 martial arts styles I came up with. There's more if anyone's interested, but I have posted these before.

Elite Advance skill packages: Calixian Martial Arts

The elite advance skill package system set out here:

http://new.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=70&efcid=3&efidt=40920

is a neat way of giving players access to a small and discrete set of skills that complement one particular activity…flying aircraft, academia, safecracking etc. It also occurred to me that this is a neat way to get players to have access to martial arts skills. With this in mind I’ve developed background and some rules for a few Calixian martial arts styles.

Any character from any career can learn one of these forms, provided they have the xp and are willing to meet the criteria set by the teacher for their students. This may vary depending upon the martial arts master – some teachers want money, some want favours, some want blood – literally.

Shockboxing
Shockboxing is an activity practised across the Imperium. It sits on the boundary between martial art and sport, and is practised in millions of different forms. However the basics are all very similar: two boxers of a similar weight face each other in a defined arena, and strike each other about the face and upper body with their fists alone until one is shocked into unconsciousness or until a specific time period elapses.

The specifics of how this takes place varies from sector to sector: in some padded gloves are used, in others the boxers use steel gauntlets. Sometimes the fight takes place in a ring made of ropes, sometimes in spiked pits. Some sectors or planets have elaborate points scoring rules and ring bells to mark out intervals, others fight until one boxer dies.

However, despite these variations, shockboxers from different sectors have a surprisingly similar skill set. Their art emphasis physical fitness and aggression, together with a strong will. Shockboxers avoid anything other than the most basic grapples, and discard kicks entirely. Their art is effective against most unarmed human opponents of similar size or smaller, and a skilled shockboxer can disable even the most frenzied opponent.

Shockboxing is taught on virtually every civilised world in the Calixis sector, but it is not currently a particularly fashionable martial art. Its heyday was under Lord Sector Caracalla over 500 years ago, who was an afficianado of the sweet science of shockboxing. Today its popularity has waned against bloodier entertainments like Gladiatorial contests between augmented servitors and xenos beasts, but on many fringe worlds it is still highly regarded.

The art is typically taught in sweaty back-hive gymnasia populated by the poorer members of society, and instruction can be had for as little as 100 thrones per skill. However, training is intense, and the player must work out for 2-3 hours every day and eat a special diet to remain able to use this advanced skills package. It is for the GM to put obstacles in the way of this process!

Shockboxing elite advance skills package

Skill/Talent xp Special/prerequisite
Dodge 150
Sound Constitution 150
Hardy 200 Must have at least T40
Dodge +10 200 Must have dodge skill
Sure Strike 200 WS30
Furious Assault 200 Must have WS35
Takedown 200
Counter attack (unarmed only) 200 Must have WS40
Dodge +20 200 Must have dodge +10 skill
Crushing blow 200 Must have ST40
Die Hard 200 Must have WP40

numb3rc said:

Really? This is 40k after all.

If i recall, the psyker/spy chap in the Horus Heresy: Legion book does a fair job of crushing a guard's armour/voxcaster/etc in HTH with his bare hands...

Our group uses unarmed attacks periodically mixed in with normal melee attacks simply because if you can hit hard enough you will inflict fatigue on the opponent. One decent smack and the vast majority are then -10 on all actions. Three or more and they most likely pass out.

Only problem with this is the poor damage unarmed attacks actually do. Its almost pointless if the opponent has any form of armour on..

My two penneth...

Martial Artist (talent). (WS30) "Your unarmed attacks no longer count as primitive weapons and inflict d10 damage, not d5"

S.K.

from france

i totally disagree with you all : ). the martial art does not limits to fists and feet kendo for examples is a martial art and the moritat looks really like martial artits. there is an art of the bow. gunshooting looks like martial artits when you are a gunmetal gunslinger. and a lot of combinaison of skill make you a martial artist.

furthermore not every opponents wear armor. where i agree is that there is no skill for unharmed fight like those who exist for gun martial artist

the 8 spider said:

This is true However, I think the people are after some kind of fist to face action here. Or footsweeping. That's always welcome.

I don't know.. might be too powerful..

Isn't there a saying that if you master the low kick you could conquer the world?

Lightbringer said:

I would like to see those, thanks.

llsoth said:

Well, that's a lot of footsweeping to conquer the imperium

Besides, I doubt the Space Marines will go down without a fight. YOu'd break your foot

i don't know, not everybody has balls, or goes out of the house without a cup ^^

As someone who has done some wrestling for several years (no, not that WWE-bull) and real self defense training i say that a properly trained man/woman can do a lot of damage. However, how do you want to bring that into the game without twisting the rules too much or going bonkers with extra-Talents?

Not to mention, it takes real skill to prevail against an armed/armoured opponent, even a knife should not be underestimated.

segara82 said:

Personally I wouldn't mess up the game by adding a ton of talent and skills. I would just fudge it, deeming that characters ith high WS/Ag/S etc. fight in an according manner. The heavy set brute dishing out ton of damage might be more of a "smashy smashy" fighter, while the agile assassin might employ some sort of martial arts (regardless of what weapon is being used).

Still I think there should be combat actions that involve snapping someones neck...

I would take the "Talent-Approach".

this would reflexct that some-one training "the arts" wouldn´t have much time for training something else (reads: does not have the EXP since he spent them somewhere else).

Jack of Tears said:

OK, here's the second one, an Arbites martial art.

Approved Arbites tactical suppression and restraint technique form XXVI
The Adeptus Arbites are not the “beat police” of the Calixis sector. They are a higher authority, responsible for the most serious crimes, those that affect the wellbeing of the Imperium as a whole. However, they do, on occasion bust heads in the same way as any other police force, and over time they have evolved methods of doing this.

For centuries, Arbites legislators have been codifying the various approved hand to hand techniques that are approved for use by the organisation. This has been done partly out of the traditional Imperial instinct to conform everything to a fixed standard, but also because there is a general acceptance that the forms previously utilised were in many ways ineffective. Recently (in Imperial terms) this process was completed, and the Imperium’s enforcers are now able to peruse at their leisure the latest in a long line of head-busting rulebooks.

For the past 87 years, Calixis Sector Arbites have enjoyed the benefit of the Imperium’s latest tactical suppression manual, volume XXVI. This compendious tome weighs in at 3,000 pages, and it obsessively sets out the forms of close combat which Arbites are allowed to use in the execution of their duties.

The form set out is a streamlining of the hundreds of close combat styles in use throughout the entire Adeptus Arbites. It provides pictorial guidance for Arbites officers on the correct and officially approved methods of restraining, subduing and subsequently beating suspects once they are safely in custody.

Of course, no Arbites officer will ever learn much from just a book (even one with over 12,000 lovingly hand-scribed images of suspects being beaten to a pulp), so the rollout of the manual was accompanied by a massive re-training drive for the Arbites’ combat instructors across the entire Imperium. This program has really borne fruit over the past few decades, and now enforcers across the sector are able to swing into action knowing full well that any hive-scum who steps up with a shiv is going to get the righteous pummelling they deserve.

The tactical suppression and restraint forms utilised by the Arbites in the sector are brutal, straightforward and aggressive. They place an emphasis upon grappling (when unarmed) or shock-maul use, and focus upon rapidly taking a suspect to the ground, locking his arms and cuffing him whilst simultaneously inflicting as little lasting damage on him as possible. The technique is strong on stunning techniques, locks, throws, defending against knife-wielding opponents and improvised weaponry, but weaker on killing techniques and non-arbites weapon use. The form favours physical strength and the momentum provided by riot armour, and arbites who find themselves unarmoured complain that it lacks finesse compared to some other martial arts styles.

Getting permission to learn this art is not simple, even for Arbites officers. While close combat skills are highly regarded within the organisation, the byzantine bureaucracy, excessive red tape and tremendously high caseload of the Arbites mitigates against the long practise sessions in the precinct gymnasia required to master this art. Additionally, the culture of the Arbites derides those who spend time off the street, or off their casework, even if it is with the laudable aim of learning to bust heads.

Players from outside the arbites who wish to learn this art must go through an arduous and almost comically Kafkaesque bureaucratic process of proving their right to learn it. Even acolytes who throw their Inquisitorial weight around often find themselves completely stymied, spending weeks filling out forms in triplicate, applying to poker faced precinct house sergeants, passionately arguing their loyalty to the Emperor in front of dismal tribunals… This grim process must be roleplayed, and the player must always feel that at any time some new rearrangement of precinct priorities could send their teacher off to some forsaken dustbowl in a different segmentum, leaving them high and dry. It is for the GM to set out precisely what skill sets will be tested to gain the right to learn the art, but Common Law (Adeptus Arbites), Peer (Adeptus Arbites), common lore (administratum) and scholastic lore (administratum) will all play a part.

NB: These skills are taught in the order set out below. They cannot be learned in any other order: the tactical suppression manual, volume XXVI is very clear on this point, and no instructor will breach its dictates, as the arbites believe that the law (even its successive statutory instruments, bylaws, codes of practice and manuals) are the word of the holy emperor. Note that players are not taught to street fight: they learn that on the street!

Arbites officers will find that in the course of their normal career, they will pick up most of these skills in due course anyway, so may find learning the art “in their own time” a counter productive exercise. However, for less combat orientated careers, the art offers valuable combat skills they would not otherwise have had access to.

Approved Arbites tactical suppression and restraint technique form XXVI
elite advance skills package

Skill/Talent xp Special/prerequisite
Melee Weapon Training (primitive) 200
Sound Constitution 200
Disarm 200 AG30+
Double Team 200
Leap Up 200 AG30+
Takedown 200
Melee Weapon Training (shock) 250
Dodge 200
Two weapon wielding (melee) 300 WS 35+, AG 35+
Crushing Blow 400 S40
Hardy 200 T40
Sure Strike 300 WS30
Step Aside 300 AG40+ Dodge
Combat Master 400 WS40+
Swift Attack 400 WS35+
Melee Weapon Training (chain) 300
Melee Weapon Training (power) 400
Counter attack 500 WS40+
Crippling Strike 500 WS50+
Precise Blow 300 WS40+, sure strike
Furious assault 300 WS35+
Dual Strike 400 AG 40+, Two weapon wielder
Wall of steel 400 AG35+
Lightning attack 400 swift attack
Bulging biceps 200 S45

Like all things, the situation should dictate the appropriate use of skills and weapons/armor needed. It's pretty ovbvious that DH is a game that leans heavily on it's bolt guns and Daemon hammers but considering that (given the GM's particular style of what missions he/she decides to give them) there will be alot of situations where they are or must go unarmed so there is definatly a place for it.

Not to mention, you could take the idea outside of the box a bit and make some very cool ideas out of it. A Moritat that has a blade attached the heels of his feet and goes Ichi The Killer on everybody? I mean, we do have brass knuckles after all (and Murker's Greives) so I don't think a <i>little</i> armor would stand in the way too much for some one who wants to go the Monk route.

This situation steps into the line of unrealism. Yes, unarmed attacks hurt. They will never be as effective at killing people as a sword. Streetfighting is a talent in the game that reduces the penalty for doing unarmed strikes. Martial arts is in the game already. Anything further than this and we step into lolmysticism of Kung Fu and all that nonsense.

Cathedralsquares said:

Cathedralsquares said:

Not that sure which rules/section you are talking about. The combat talents, perhaps? Which one? Could explain a little further? Thanks

This is what we've just done in our weekly game:

The characters have spent downtime (and a 200xp Elite Advance) creating the following:

KILLING BLOWS OF DRUSUS
This unarmed combat style combines Dusk feral savagery and survivalist lessons with the brutal takedown techniques of Volgite enforcers and the zeal, self-purification and mental focus of the Black Priests.
Benefit: When attacking with an unarmed strike, an improvised weapon, brass knuckles, or a similar weapon, you deal 1d10+SB damage with a Penetration of 0 and the Primitive quality. This damage replaces the damage that the attack normally deals, and if you choose to use it with an unarmed strike then you do not inflict a level of Fatigue on the target if you damage them (as you would with a normal unarmed strike).
In addition, when you successfully hit a target you may decide to spend a Fate Point. If you do so, your attack does not count as Primitive.

Bam. Simple, useful (but not so useful that it overshadows any weapons). I may push for more advanced Talents that build on this one... but probably not.

Mr Adventurer said:

In my opinion, this overshadow a lot of the primitive weapons! The damage you are able to deal with this and a spend faith point is by far better then what a mere sword would do. At least, if you are facing an armoured opponent!.
Even if you leave this aside, the bare hands become equal to a sword/axe/mace. Turning "1w5-3+STB" into "1w10+STB" is a big deal of improvement.

Good stuff, but I am looking for something appropriate for a member of the Assassinorum.

Unarmed Combat Talents are in Rogue Trader. I personally am not a fan--its not that they're unbalanced or poorly written (although they are really strong), but I think 40k doesn't need kung fu (of which I am a tremendous fan when it is in other RPGs).

Why punch a dude when you can DISEMBOWL him with a CHAINSAW SWORD? Better yet, ask the eldar for a shuriken pistol--you know, the ones that are basically tiny rail guns that fire ninja stars?

RocketPropelledGrenade said:

Because you don't always have a chainsaw sword or a tiny railgun that fire ninja stars.

You could say the same thing about today. We have atomic bombs and assault rifles in this age, why would you need to know how to dispatch a person in hand to hand when you could just shoot him/her? The answer is simple: you do not always have an a-bomb or an assault rifle at hand. You do however have hands, feet and teeth with you pretty much at all times.

I don't believe that intelligence levels would have so drastically declined in the forty-first millenium that they would forget the fact that sometimes you don't always have a firearm or melee weapon with you. You could've dropped it, have it taken away from you or simply forgot to bring it. Knowing how to be lethal with only hands, feet and teeth will at least improve your odds of surviving a violent encounter...