Varnias Tybalt said:

I'm not that interested in DW, but I can understand those who are looking forward to it. DW will be the Exalted of the 40k PRGs. It will be epic. You'll be playing Big **** Heroes. It'll be a different type of story - instead of skulking through the shadows of DH or trying to make a quick billion credits in RT, you'll be saving worlds, hunting daemons, battling monsters. Exploring the dark Hive Tombs of the Nech-hezzar, raiding the lost Eldar fortress of El'therios Manotheen, trying to survive on the Death World of Harm.

It's not for everyone, obviously. But considering the number of people who complained about the low power level in Dark Heresy... well, let's just say that they should be pleased

macd21 said:

But wouldn't sitting down in front of your tv playing Gears of War on Xbox 360 pretty much fill that niche in a more satisfying manner than sitting around a table rolling dice? Also, isn't THQ in the process of actually making a Space Marine video game where footage have shown our beloved "smurfs" taking on the shockwave of a nuclear bomb simply by kneeling down and let the shockwave and flames wash over them?

It's not that im trying to promote video games over RPG's here, it's just that I feel like the two games are differently able to fill a certain niche. RPG's work really well when you want to roleplay, act, interact and try to get a feel for another person that isn't you. And although you can have pretty exciting action elements to a classic RPG, it is never as visceral as a video game can be. A video game can litterarly give you the sounds and sights of the battle in real time, while an RPG demands that you have to wait for the dice to roll and let the GM tell you what happens.

And then we have to consider what Space Marines do primarily. They fight. That's pretty much it. Soldiers for a lifetime with their whole life revolving around killing the enemies of mankind. The concept pretty much reek of "action game". And the best action has to be visceral in nature, and while you can certainly do it, in an RPG it will never quite reach the same heights of the action in a video game. And that's coming from a guy who takes great pride in having an almost childishly vivid imagination for his age.

To try to get my point through: if you had to choose and never have access to the other option ever again in your life, what would you select: "Gears of War: the roleplaying game" with all the thrilling dice-rolling action it will bring, or would you rather choose "Gears of War" for Xbox 360 where you can actually run up to the alien monstrosity and saw him in half with your chainsaw bayonett, drenching your tv-screen in it's blood in the process?

I would choose the latter if it' action I want, and I do consider myself a roleplayer first and video gamer second. It's just that sometimes you have to admit the different strengths and weaknesses of the different mediums.

Oh and speaking of power level and epic battles, need I tell you all again that I have played a Mechanicus Secutor, armed with an assault cannon and a powerfist, cutting down enemies by their hundreds in Dark Heresy? "Modest", "low power level", Dark Heresy?

And to tell you the truth, it didn't take any effort at all. Sure A LOT of dice had to be rolled, but we didn't need any other rulesystem or setting to get those battles going. Sometimes the warp decides to vomit fourth it's daemonic entities on unsuspecting acolytes, and not conveniently wait for the space marines to arrive.

Varnias Tybalt said:

Well, let me offer up a brief counter.

Action oriented RPG's can and have been done well. Just look at the long life of Feng Shui and the recent roaring indi success, Spirit of the Century. They are both unabashed action games, Feng Shui even going as far as to blatantly state that all the non-action non-violent scenes that occur are there strictly for the purpose of getting to the next fight. In both games, you play larger then life Big **** Heroes who can do crazy amazing things and tend to spend a lot of time wading through mass amounts of mooks and goons to get to the next thrilling machinegun kung-fu fight on top of airplane in flight.

They work and are still fun even in this age of video games because of freedom. You are free to effect your environment in any way you see fit. You are free to pursue any story in what ever way you wish. You are free to deal with any situation tossed at you in any way you can imagine. In a video game, you are limited to dealing with the environment and the story only in the ways the programmers and writers had envisioned. In the above games, your creativity (and character stats... and GM) are your only limiters and if your GM is limiting you as much as a video game would, well, you need to get a new GM. In essence, in the video game, you get to play a Big God **** Hero, in an rpg, you get to live as one ;-)

Of course, the second major thing that makes these games fun to play is their cinematic rule systems. They encourage and reward creative approaches (or at least cool approaches) to problems and combat sequences which are, in turn, resolved very quickly with, usually no more then two dice rolls and very minimal math. This is the biggest problem I foresee with DW, however, as the current rule system for the 40k rpg line is not very fast paced nor free-form and cinematic enough to even come close to modern action rpg's. Because of this, in it's current incarnation, and in my opinion of course, trying to have a game focused on action and combat would be about as much fun as hitting your self in the crotch with a hammer. It's okay for those few times when combat turns up, but for situations where it would turn up quite regularly (and more then once or twice max per session) it would be incredibly tedious to play through.

In summery, combat oriented action rpg's can and have been done exceptionally well and offer a gaming experience that video games still can not. Will DW be able to do this? It's far to early to tell, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

But wouldn't sitting down in front of your tv playing Gears of War on Xbox 360 pretty much fill that niche in a more satisfying manner than sitting around a table rolling dice?

No, completely different experiences.

It's not that im trying to promote video games over RPG's here, it's just that I feel like the two games are differently able to fill a certain niche. RPG's work really well when you want to roleplay, act, interact and try to get a feel for another person that isn't you. And although you can have pretty exciting action elements to a classic RPG, it is never as visceral as a video game can be. A video game can litterarly give you the sounds and sights of the battle in real time, while an RPG demands that you have to wait for the dice to roll and let the GM tell you what happens.

There are plenty of action-oriented RPGs out there. And there are plenty of high powered ones. Again, look at Exalted, or Scion. A typical battle in Exalted might have a single PC wiping out a company of elite warriors, or defending a city from a rampaging god-titan etc. These games are popular and have some devoted fans.

And then we have to consider what Space Marines do primarily. They fight. That's pretty much it. Soldiers for a lifetime with their whole life revolving around killing the enemies of mankind. The concept pretty much reek of "action game". And the best action has to be visceral in nature, and while you can certainly do it, in an RPG it will never quite reach the same heights of the action in a video game. And that's coming from a guy who takes great pride in having an almost childishly vivid imagination for his age.

DW will probably be about more than SMs, but also you are being too limited. For one thing, the game won't be about 'normal' marines, but about the Death Watch. PCs may have to explore strange worlds, meet new civilisations (and kill them, admittedly), deal with the intrigues of Lord Governors etc etc. Space Marines do a lot more than fight, that's just what you see on the tabletop. The intrigue and social interaction with SMs will just be at a different level, with different challenges and antagonists.

To try to get my point through: if you had to choose and never have access to the other option ever again in your life, what would you select: "Gears of War: the roleplaying game" with all the thrilling dice-rolling action it will bring, or would you rather choose "Gears of War" for Xbox 360 where you can actually run up to the alien monstrosity and saw him in half with your chainsaw bayonett, drenching your tv-screen in it's blood in the process?

The RPG, no hesitation. I like the X-box, but I've never enjoyed a computer game as much as an RPG. Even an action RPG

I am generally more of a story-driven player but even I occasionally get the urge to play a combat monster. There are several people at my table who prefer the action over the social interaction. Neither of these are wrong but I can see the draw to a more combat oriented game.

In a good old fashioned pen and paper game, the players' imaginations draw a far more dramatic scene than a video game does. As Graver pointed out, imagination and creativity are the only limiting factor to what a character can achieve on the field of battle rather than pre-programmed events. You get the whole sand box, so to speak.

Anyone who knows me knows that I'm certainly not holding my breath in anticipation of DW... but then I got the game I wanted already. (Dark Heresy)

My preference for the Inquisition (and disinterest in Space Marines) aside though, don't we think we're giving the game system a bit too much emphasis here? A game, as always, will be as hack and slash, or as vampire-soap-opera-dramatic, as the GM (and to a lesser extend the players) want it to be.

macd21 said:

Right... because 40k has been sputtering along with fiction, tabletop, multiple video games, RPGs, and everything else under the sun, all for 20 years.

Black Library shut down their games division because GW strikes me as frequently over-extending their reach, much like TSI did which sank D&D and allowed it to be bought by Wizards of the Coast.

TheFlatline said:

Exactly. Multiple formats, multiple editions, using different platforms to appeal to as many different tastes as possible. When the market for one format dries up they hit another one for a few years before going back to it.

The editions of the TT wargames are the clearest examples of this. GW realised that each edition has a 'sweet spot' that last two years after release, followed by a year of ok sales, followed by poor sales from then on. In order to faxmimise their sales GW now alternate their editions of WFB and 40k - there will be a new edition of one or the other every two years. 40k sales start to fall just as WFB gets a new shot in the arm. They also hope to catch players of one game just as they stop buying minis for it by hooking them on the second.

The release of RT and DW are basically attempts to do the same thing with RPGs. It may or may not work, as the market and the products are different. Are DH, RT and DW different enough to count as seperate games as far as the market is concerned? My guess is yes, but by the time DW comes out there may be some market fatigue.