Can a psyker with psy rating 6 use all his 6 dice for a Power Roll to maintain a Psychic ability after he only used 3 dice to actually manifest the Power?

If the gm decides to limit the sustaining roll to the number of dice in the initial roll, that means that someone will have to make note of how many were used. If the gm lets the psyker roll as many dice as he feels like, then that extra information isn't needed. So unless someone has a good reason to limit the number of dice rolled, I pick the lazy option and let the psyker roll all his dice.

I don't have my books with me right now, but I am pretty sure there is no RAW concerning this.

I would rule that you must use the same number of dice to maintain as you did when first using the power.

The rules state he must make a power roll to maintain it just as if he were rolling to manifest it. So no, you don't have to use the same number of dice, there is nothing in the rules insinuating that. They get to do like normal, choose between 1 and their max dice and roll it out.

I would rule you could use more dice to maintain. While having a connection to the warp is something we can ever truly relate to the real world, there are similarities.

Say you began treading water in a pool, doesnt take much energy so you aren't going crazy exerting yourself. Now put a 50lb pack on your back and juggle while you tread water, you are exerting a little more energy now.

I imagine a psyker could do a similar thing when touching the warp. When he first uses a power it isn't hard, so they don't suck all the power they can from the warp, but when they start "juggling" other powers they may need to pull out all the stops and draw as much from the warp as they can.

We've allowed all the dice to be used, though generally banning any chance of overbleed for those sustained powers that have this option.

Part of the reasoning was that skills like Invocation can be used to ease establishing the connection, requiring fewer dice, but once the connection to the power is made it is far easier to maintain. this is shown by the lack of perils on this roll.

So probably a psyker can use all his dice in order to sustain an ability, as the majority said. This results in the question concerning overbleed. would you also ban it like zethliss does?

Example: A biomancer manifests Enhanced Senses. At first he only scores a 12 on his Power Roll and only enhances his eyes. About a minute (10 rounds) later he rolls all his dice and scores 30. Can he now enhance 3 additional senses? Could he decide not to enhance his eyes any more but to focus the power on his other sense organs?

I would rule no as he is maintaining the previous results and not trying to "recast" it. Perils or no, if they don't feel the need to drop the power and recast it, they don't get results from overbleed

Terelo said:

Allowing overbleed in the sustaining roll causes annoyances and raises some other questions, all of which must be answered if overbleed is allowed on the sustaining roll. Going through the sustained powers with overbleed:

- Fearful aura: If you allow the fear rating to change, what happens with the characters that have already taken a fear test ?

Answer for both fear increases and decreases since if you allow overbleed to increase the potency of the power, it follows that a roll that doesn't get the same overbleed as previously would weaken it..

- Inflict pain: Lets say that the psyker is helping interrogate three NPCs. Note that an interrogation is long enough to require many sustaining tests. At first the psyker casts it on all three, but one passes his willpower test. Later his power roll is low enough that he can only sustain it on one target. Later his overbleed is enough so it can cover all three again. Does the guy that fought it off first time have to roll willpower again ?

What about the NPC that failed the test, but had inflict pain removed ?

What penalities do all three have to their test to resist the interrogation ?

- Sense Presence, torch, weaken veil, white noise: If the psyker keeps this power up for hours before it becomes important, how should the gm determine how much overbleed is there when it becomes important ?

- Blood boil: No problems here.

- Enhanced senses: See the post I quoted.

After enhanced senses I stopped looking at powers. They might raise other questions, they might not. My point is that allowing overbleed effects on sustaining rolls will raise a lot of questions that the gm must answer when they come up. It's much eaiser to just keep the overbleed the same as it was on the initial power roll.

The rules don't say you get overbleed on sustained power rolls. To sustain the power you make the PT roll and if you succeed (by any amount) you maintain it exactly as you had originally manifested it as. If you want overbleed, you drop the current version and try to remanifest the power because you can't change the effects of something you are sustaining, but you can establish new effects when you manifest a power.

karn987 said:

*cough* Quote from the book:

Every 10 rounds a power is active, the Psyker must make a Power Roll to maintain it - just as if he were rolling to manifest it.

I understand that most of you prefer the easier version without overbleed in the sustaining roll, but am I right that none of you has a proof it really should be that way?

Just turn the situation around. I take Douse Flames as an example:

The pyromancer scores 26 when manifesting the power. All flames within WPBx5m + 10m (overbleed) extinguish. When doing his sustaining roll he only scores 20. He clearly cannot sustain WPBx5m+10m as he does not channel enough warp power to sustain the overbleed. So 10m of the range are lost. The power gets weaker. Logically it must also be possible that the power becomes stronger again.

Sense Presence, torch, weaken veil, white noise: If the psyker keeps this power up for hours before it becomes important, how should the gm determine how much overbleed is there when it becomes important ?

Quite simple: Let the psyker do a sustaining roll when it becomes important.

Terelo said:

The closest I have to proof is the questions raised by having overbleed in the sustaining roll. You have answered some of them, but unless you answer all of them then having overbleed effects from the sustaining roll means that the powers with unanswered questions have unclear rules. Unclear because of those questions.

You have managed to answer the easier questions. But fearful aura and inflict pain have harder questions to answer. Answer for those powers and I'll look for questions in other powers. Answer all of those new questions and I will concede this point. Current status:

- Minor powers: Fearful Aura and Inflict pain have unanswered questions.

- Biomancy: All powers have their questions answered.

- Divination, Pyromancy, Telekinetics, Telepathy: I haven't checked for questions.

I will not question you on psychic or sorcery powers from anywhere other than the core rulebook.

Then we have the issue of psychic phenomena. The core rulebook states quite clearly that psychic phenomena do not occur on sustaining rolls. This means that if we allow overbleed to effect a sustaining roll a powerful psyker could get a lot of overbleed without risk by casting with a single die, waiting a bit*, then using all six dice on the sustaining roll for lots of overbleed with less risk than if overbleed only counts on the initial roll.

*Page 187 stats that a turn is approximately 5 seconds. We are talking less than a minute, which isn't much time outside of combat.

It seems to me that if you can increase the number of dice and get overbleed, then there is an exploit whereby you roll the minimum number of dice needed for success when activating the power, then roll the maximum number of dice later on in order to get overbleed, knowing you no longer risk psychic phenomena etc.

Even if you aren't allowed overbleed, changing the number of dice still seems a little suspect - you get to roll invocation for starting the power, reducing the risk of psychic phenomena etc, then roll extra dice later on without invoking or risking psychic phenomena. Equally, not allowing it seems perverse since you will then be less likely to succeed at sustaining because of the lack of an invocation bonus.

I think the best ruling is probably to say that you get to keep the invocation bonus without taking another full round action; that you can't change the number of dice used; and that you keep any overbleed from the initial roll, even if you make a less good sustain roll later on (provided you roll enough to manifest the power).

Terelo said:

The very concept of sustaining an ability implies that it remains the way it was the entire time, hence no overbleed. That is the proof, simple understanding of the english language. If I am right hmmm you have no proof that is should really be the other way other then one sentance that as it has happened many times in the book is poorly worded, lack of an edditor again.

Now, the wording your refering to "Just as if he were rolling to manifest it" the key word is rolling to manifest it not as if you were manifesting it. Yes it's very very subtle but it is difference. The word rolling is used as a catch all basically telling you to use all modifiers you would normally use to manifest the power not that you are actually manifesting it. You don't suffer effects of Psychic Phenomena or Perils and you do not get overbleed or the ability to modify the power in question because you are sustaining it and not remanifesting it.

So again, you rolling just as if you were manifesting it but you are not actually manifesting it.

Point out where in rules it says you are manifesting the power when you maintain it and you are right. But that sentance, does not say that.

Lets say a psyker manifests a sustained power and makes use of overbleed. When they roll to sustain the power, what is the minimum they must roll (after the penalty for sustaining power/s) to continue to sustain it ?

Just the base threshold, or the threshold plus the minimum overbleed needed for that effect ?

I'm tempted to say that they must meet the threshold plus overbleed and that if they don't meet it, the power ends.

According to the rules, just the threshhold because its a PT check exactly LIKE (but not actually) you are manifesting the power.