Copy-pasted from the "Indiana Wants Me" thread. Symbols are in ALPHABETICAL order in their tier (if they're in the same tier, I feel they're too close to make a definitive statement as to which is the order they should go in):

Tier 1:

Air - The classic 'glass cannon' symbol lost some muscle with the recent bans/erratas, but that's a good thing, because it was a bit too awesome. Its strengths are its up-tempo momentum generation abilities, its absolutely blistering attack line up (with the likes of Dragon's Flame , Feline Spike , Ira-Spinta , and Jaguar Thousand all making rounds here), and abundance of aggressively inclined characters, this symbol can hit hard and fast.

Standout Characters: Adon:: (7 HS, 19 HP), Andrew Olexa*, Felicia::, Mignon*, Terry***

Death - ...And now, we go from talking about a symbol that got burned by the SOTG's to a symbol who got buffed by them. With most of Evil 's defenses getting a taste of the banhammer, Death now stands at the top of the control symbol heap, with a reinvigorated attack lineup ( Ichi no Tachi --> Midnight Launcher --> Knight Breaker combosauce, anyone?), the most comprehensive tech arsenal of any symbol out there, and a stable of strong characters, Death has come from the ashes as a powerful contender.

Standout Characters: Blanka:: (7 HS, 20 HP), Donovan*** (7 HS, 20 HP), Night Terror* (6 HS, 27 HP), Yang** (7 HS, 19 HP), Zi Mei* (7 HS, 20 HP)

Earth - I admit being biased in favor of this symbol, but no one can deny it's one of the top symbols right now. Earth has always been well versed in the arts of boosting and reducing damage, but now has found itself bolstered by the additions of card drawing, abilities speed boosting/hand damage, and some nifty tech cards (including Inhuman Perception and Torn Hero ), it has been able to bound its way up the rankings. And I haven't even talked about the possibility of full turtle mill and Hanzo*** loops (he can still do them here). The characters here run the gamut from speedy T2-3 artists ( Leona** , with her 8 HS/14 Vitality stats), to full-fledged mega-tanks ( Hugo* 's daunting 40 Vitality) to most things in between, so it's actually a pretty diverse symbol.

Standout Characters: Astaroth* (6 HS, 28 HP), Hanzo*** (7 HS, 18 HP), Hugo* (4 HS, 40 HP), Leona** (8 HS, 14 HP), Yi Shan* (6 HS, 29 HP)

Good - As a longtime Good player, I honestly believe the SOTG's finally placed it on the upper echelon of UFS. Though most decks lost a kill condition as the feared Feline Spike was basically turned into a Felicia Only attack, two major thorns in its side ( Rejection and Bitter Rivals ) also went the way of the dodo, leaving Good decks with much more room to operate, and finally allowing for guilt-free running of Reversals . With a solid attack lineup (the likes of Dragon's Flame , Ichi no Tachi , Mark of the Beast , and Shadow Blade come to mind), a defensive tech lineup second to none ( Holding Ground , Healer , Memories of a Nightmare , Red Lotus , Torn Hero , the list just goes on and on), and a fresh stable of beats-oriented characters, Good looks the best it has in years, perhaps the best it's looked ever.

Standout Characters: Elena** (7 HS, 20 HP), Felicia:: (6 HS, 27 HP), Gen* (7 HS, 24 HP --> them stats should be illegal), Hilde* (sorry Marco, but it's true) (7 HS, 18 HP), Nagase*** (7 HS, 22 HP)

Order - It's been nerfed, to be sure (it lost Forethought , Juni's Spiral Arrow , and Lord of the Maka i , and by extension the Defender loop), but that's because it was run-away-laughing good. Though it can be argued that it lacks a consistent kill button now (and with stuff like Kuzuryu Reppa and Lunar Slash running around, and solid pumps such as Personal Style on board for them, consider me a skeptic on that front), Order packs a sick amount of card drawing (though not as much as All ), combined with a powerful array of tech cards (which All lacks). It won't be as dominant as it has been recently, but by no means diminished.

Standout Characters: Astrid (OMG no dots!) (6 HS, 27 HP), Donovan*** (7 HS, 20 HP), Hilde* (7 HS, 18 HP), Nagase*** (7 HS, 22 HP), Seong Mi-na*** (5 HS, 34 HP)

Tier 2:

All - This is one of the symbols that took the most damage from the June-July SOTG's, with Bitter Rivals , Chester's Backing , Juni's Spiral Arrow , and Lord of the Makai all getting the axe, dramatically changing the symbol's playstyle from grey-wars behemoth to (IMHO) an aggressive symbol that uses superior card drawing and vitality gain abilities to stand and bang with the opposition. The attack line-up varies depending on your concept, but there are a few stand-outs that most decks will be carrying ( Kuzuryu Reppa and Ryu's Shin Shoryuken are the most prominent ones), but you'll find a lot of solid moves here. Hand size is also less of a concern here, since this symbol packs plenty of card drawing to make up for any initial disadvantage you may have. The one thing it has to beware about is that it has absolutely no answer to Martial Arts Champion , and that can throw a pretty nasty wrench in its plans.

Standout Characters: Alex*** (6 HS, 28 HP), Balrog:: (6 HS, 30 HP), Hugo* (4 HP, 40 HP), Sakura:: (6 HS, 27 HP), Zangief::. (6 HS, 32 HP) (go Team SF!)

Evil - Behold the fallen giant. With most of the SOTG smackdown being directed at it ( Bitter Rivals , Chester's Backing , and the infamous Rejection have all bit the dust now), this perennial top-tier symbol has been forced to yield ground to hungry contenders in Death and Void . Still, Evil carries a more powerful attack lineup than the aforementioned symbols (think Death , but add a devastating second option to Ichi no Tachi in Reverse Flayer ), and still reigns supreme in control check hacking shenanigans with Blood Runs True , and should thus not be taken lightly. Look for Evil to turn more aggressive as a means to compensate for its lost grey war potential.

Standout Characters: Akuma::: (7 HS, 20 HP), Andrew Olexa* (7 HS, 19 HP), Ibuki:: (7 HS, 20 HP), Night Terror* (6 HS, 27 HP), Zi Mei* (7 HS, 20 HP)

Fire - Here we have a symbol that was always in the mix, but may be put over the top by the recent bannings. Sure, Bitter Rivals (one of the very few defensive pieces the symbol has ever had) is gone, but so is its hated enemy Rejection (which prompted most decks I saw to carry the bulky No Memories around), so Fire and its well-rounded buffing offense is much more free to operate. Set 12 has brought even more powerful attack lineups to Fire 's always impressive arsenal, as well as a handful of control-hating tech, so look for this symbol to make its presence felt.

Standout Characters: Akuma::: (7 HS, 20 HP), Astaroth (6 HS, 28 HP), Leona** (8 HS, 14 HP), Yang** (7 HS, 19 HP), Zi Mei* (7 HS, 20 HP)

Void - Though some folks are skeptical about this symbol being fully deserving of this tier rating, I can say with a strong degree of confidence that this symbol is every bit as strong as Evil . Although the attack lineup isn't as mighty as the dreaded pitchfork's (and it lost Juni's Spiral Arrow ), it has superior defensive/negating abilities and generally has an easier time making its attacks connect, thanks to discard/speed boosting being more prevalent here than in Evil . Add some Throw -based awesomeness, and you have a very solid symbol, indeed.

Standout Characters: Akuma::: (7 HS, 20 HP), Dhalsim:: (6 HS, 28 HP), Ken:::. (6 HS, 26 HP), Rashotep** (6 HS, 27 HP), Sakura:: (6 HS, 27 HP)

Water - This symbol wasn't the first on folks' "to be nerfed" lists when the SOTG's came down, but it lost a good bit of defense in the departure of Chester's Backing and Rejection . However, Bitter Rivals ' departure has officially made it safe to play a Reversal -based deck. If you don't run committing power, you might find it hard to crack through Water 's defenses, and Water certainly has the tools to commit you down in Program Malfunction and Chinese Boxing . Though you might not find much in the way of buffing here, you'll find plenty of attacks that are lethal all on their own ( Feline Spike , High Plasma Beam , Lunar Slash ), and enough card drawing to get your stuff in hand so you can kill.

Standout Characters: Donovan*** (7 HS, 20 HP), Felicia:: (6 HS, 27 HP), Sakura:: (6 HS, 27 HP), Seong Mi-Na*** (5 HS, 34 HP), Ukyo:: (7 HS, 20 HP)

Tier 3:

Chaos - Another symbol that took a big hit from the SOTG's ( Lord of the Makai was the great Defender loop enabler, after all, and Forethought was just plain nasty), this symbol is in a bit of a weird place right now. Right now, it's hasn't got as many pieces for or as consistent a momentum strategy as Air (and some of the best cards it has for these purposes have Air as well), and its control check shenanigans aren't as powerful as Evil 's, but it has both, and it has something both these symbols somewhat lack in straightforward speed boosts and defensive abilities. True to its name, this is a grab-bag symbol, and you can play it in one of many ways. However, I'm not convinced that versatility is power in this case, since it's basically middling in most aspects instead of specializing in one.

Standout Characters: Andrew Olexa* (7 HS, 19 HP), Blanka:: (7 HS, 20 HP), Fio* (7 HS, 19 HP), Guy** (7 HS, 20 HP), Zhao Daiyu** (6 HS, 25 HP)

Life - And here we are at the basement of unfulfilled potential. Life took two solid shots to the jaw when Forethought and Rejection both went down, and its general lack of answers to problems such as characters (name me ONE CARD that can nerf characters, just ONE, and I'll take it back), and Responses, combined with its general lack of kill condition power (a combination of a lack of strong attacks with lack of damage-oriented buffing), and you see why Life is down here, especially when the other "aggro" symbols ( Air , Chaos , Earth , Fire , and debatably Good , which is more of a hybrid) have all answered most or all of these issues.

Standout Characters: Alex*** (6 HS, 28 HP), Ivy* (6 HS, 26 HP), Leona** (8 HS, 14 HP), Yang** (7 HS, 19 HP), Yi Shan* (6 HS, 29 HP)

*pant, pant, pant* Finally done. Comments, objections, fixes?

I dunno if you will agree, but I would add Yuri to earth and life. With yi-shans attack line up it's 3 free dmg on every attack. Sure Yi shan got defence built in aswell, but this should be close to equal with him

Not a bad write-up, dude. I personally wouldn't use as many absolutes as you, but i thik that's a common trend on here and not about to change anytime soon. For example saying there is absolutely no answer for MAC if you're playing ALL. Pummel Smash works, but of course there's answers to that. Obviously the "what if's" could go on forever (i.e. Life can use Torn Hero to ruin any character's day if your opponent tries to commit anything), so that's a never-ending battle. But as I said, a nice write-up.

One thing I will add is that for a forum full of people who thought JSA was so deserving of being banned, it wasn't listed as one of the losses ALL took.

Water, bottom tier?

No. I contend that it's better than Fire, Life, and All for sure. Maybe Chaos, but Chaos has some fricken interesting tools.

The thing is, I think she's too similar to Yi Sha n* in playstyle, and I feel that he's better, simply because he has defense built in, and it's pretty easy to upgrade (just stack character, whereas Yuri basically caps out at +3). Yur i* 's vitality gain bit doesn't make up for the combination of Yi Shan* 's 5 extra points of vitality (which is usually what 1 Battle Prowess will get you), AND the damage reduction.

@Marco: I am intrigued by this argument. Please explain, becuase Water has NOTHING to protect it from getting tapped out and pounded out, and has few speed + damage bonuses, so you're gonna have to explain how it's better than those other symbols.

Water lost Chester's, Rejection, Feline Spike, half of Chinese Boxing, and honestly didn't gain much in Set 12 for this control-oriented meta. It's got a snowball's chance of beating down Earth, or of winning faster than Air, or having any other specific matchups over both of said symbols. Maybe it handles aggro a bit better than Air, thanks to Battle Prowess, but not as well as Earth. Maybe it has a better shot at shutting down a controlling Victor deck than Earth (big maybe), but certainly not better than Air.

I'd love to hear what you think, particularly if there are some big cards or combos I'm missing

ROTBI said:

Absolutes are something I use a bit too often. That's more of a personal tendency.

That's right; I forgot JSA (no one owns it in my playgroup, so it was a non-issue for me).

Well, I'm definitely up for being corrected, but I'll just speak off memory...

Life needs no explanation; you ought to know why it has, and will be for a long time, the worst symbol in the game as of right now.

Fire, as I've always said, and still do, is in limbo. What does that mean? It means that its existence is not frequent enough to place in any tier, but it isn't bad enough (such as Life) to be placed in the bottom tier. It has some ways of killing (Flayer-Launcher-Breaker), some means of control (Memories, Manifest), it has...

...OK, who am I kidding? It has nothing really. Almost everything Fire has is either a speed or damage boost, and when I say that, that isn't including anything worth caring about. Astaroth, Alex, Chae, Yang, the list is quite extensive, gave us a LOT of damage or speed pumps to play with...'cept none are really any good. When it comes to Fire aggro, I've noticed it lies solely in the character lately, in that people have been playing Astaroth to play Astaroth, and people have been playing Hilde to play Hilde. They do things their support cannot: win games (lol). Seriously, Fire has no decent draw, unless your name is Astrid, at which point it's assumed your deck is clogged with weapons you can draw. Otherwise, Fire simply has no draw, and draw is MAD important. Fire DOES have White Magic for momentum...and that's it. Fire's "control" is extraordinarily limited, not enough to really matter.

It's just a bad, bottom tier symbol IMO. With the exception of out-dated Cobra Blow Hilde, which of course was in its own tier, I can only really think of Akuma and Iori as decent Fire characters, and that's really not saying much since Akuma has two better symbols on his left and right, and Iori relies PURELY on copies of White Magic to be any good.

I've always hated All because it's never had a very obvious goal, which is of course why I still hate it now. Lord of the Makai was the enabler to enable all enablers, and as much as it made All viable, it NEEDED to go. That, along with Chester's was the kit n' kaboodle (or w/e that expression is). All's "flexibility" still exists to a point, but so many people are stuck in the days of Addes-Revitalize-MRank that they forget those 3 cards are all banned. I realize there's some new overhyped archetype involving Mirage Body and Turn it On, but that hasn't yet won a tourney, and from what I hear, checks awfully (which is likely why it hasn't won).

Without Makai, All is reduced (and again, correct me if I'm wrong) to White Gi and one of Algol's useless actions (thereby making it pointless to bring it up) to generate momentum, which makes it that much slower. Don't even get me started about its (lack thereof) control.

I just think people are focusing on how Fire didn't lose anything in the ban, and that All used to be a UFS superstar, and aren't DEEPLY thinking that Fire simply wasn't good pre-bans, meaning it isn't any better post-bans. Bitter helped both All and Fire push stuff through, and seeing as how neither have Ways of Punishment, there's no longer a "costless" way to push attacks through.

I really feel bad for those who invested all their money in Controller of Souls. I can't believe that card is still like, 20 bucks. Wtf?

Well, Controller of Souls DOES have 2 other symbols, you know.

That's an interesting point, Marco . But what I'm basically getting from your post is that Fire is more character-centric than most other symbols. That may make it more vulnerable to certain bits of support such as Tag Along , but I'm still not seeing how rush-down with poor defense is worse than mediocre offense with poor defense ( Water ).

All has a good shot at winning worlds. Shinji is forgetting a certain someone's very good and annoying deck.

I lol'z at the hate on my favorite SF char ever. It was pretty lame, but it was funny.

DaiAndOh said:

Yeah, a decktype that, to my knowledge, hasn't done well since the bannings. I have heard, though, that Deadly Ground and Bishamon are still in high-flying colors.

Water? Not good enough offense?

Shadow Blade
Lunar Slash
High Plasma Beam

Poor defense, wtf? Battle Prowess, Gorgeous Team and Hybrid Style for blocking, PMal and China to slow down the opposition, AquaK and TBTA for drawing (and thus blocking)? =/

MarcoPulleaux said:

...everyone knows only one guy even plays that deck anyway, and he couldn't even play during the tournament he was running.

Sure, Water has Lunar , SB , and Fweem . However, Fire has the edge on attacks against just about any symbol. Allow me to expand on my point:

Astaroth's Body Splash , Crushing Embrace of the Jotun , Dragon's Flame , Hammer Uppercut , Ira-Spinta , Knight Breaker , Midnight Launcher , Reverse Flayer , Senkyutai , Upper Claw , the Execution Rites , and throw in Pommel Smash and Zi Mei's Wheel Kick for good utility measure. No matter how you slice it, Fire 's offensive output is better by definition (and that's without getting into character-specific stuff, where Water only has the Spike , and Fire packs the likes of Hades Destroyer , Jaguar Thousand , and Tiger Fury to prove its character simply finish fights better). Add on to that the Water damage pumps are few and far between ( Big Dreams , The Kyokugen Karate Innovator for a one-shot boost, Raw Talent for a handful of niche decks, Tool of Destruction for basically only Seong Mi-Na , Travel Abroad for throws) and the gap between Fire and Water 's offense becomes even bigger.

Though Water has Fire beat on defensive pieces (well, duh), the defense is still lacking a key component towards having a good defense: staging area protection. Fire has a bit of Enhance and Response hate to stave off committing effects (as well as sporting commit effects that are about on par with Water ), and is flat-out good at preventing destruction via Blinding Rage and/or Makai High Noble . Water has none of this protection, so its defenses look good on paper, but they can be split wide open and then it won't matter. Let's not forget Fire has DR and resetting, too ( Amy's Assistance , Healer , Stand Off ; heck, even Fight or Flight works in a pinch against Multiple copies), so Wate r 's edge isn't even that high. Where I see that Water holds a definitive edge is in card drawing, because its brand of hand acceleration is accessible to the majority of characters comprising its symbol, whereas Fire has to pretty much stick with the higher hand size guys (with Ale x*** and Astrid the Dotless being the notable exceptions). Fire is more limited, but that focus makes it stronger than Water ; versatility doesn't always equal power.

Fire may have MORE offensive options, but it's HOW they're played that matters. Fire's foundations, IMO, are garbage. It dosen't have the versatility Water does, especially since Water still has CBox and PMal.

Also, check the off-topic forum. I hope I fulfill my mission of making you lawl.

I read it; you have succeeded in a spectacular fashion, my friend. My jaw aches from laughing so much.

Well, Fire does have a lot of garbage foundations (cards such as Black Magic and Get Up and Go come to mind here), but it has a lot more of them (a whopping 14 4 legal ones in B3, compared to Water's 97 ), so it's a trial-and-error process with Fire . And believe me when I say I agree in that Water 's base is more versatile; my argument is that Fire 's focus on offensive firepower gives it an edge over Water because you have a shot at T3K'ing your bad matchup and getting it over with. Water finds it harder to do that; if it's in a bad matchup, it's a long night for the Water player.

I disagree

If I'm Seong Mi-Na, I'll F with PMal to tap your stuff, then hit with Shadow Blade. China Box, Stun, and Destroy where necessary. If you aren't fully tapped, I'll F with Mi-Na, and play Shadow Blade again to get rid of everything remainng. Then I'll Lunar Slash, enhance with Natural Leader, and let the rest resolve naturally =D

I just feel Fire has zero substance. It has some pretty awesome attacks, no denying that, but that's all it's got.

MarcoPulleaux said:

I agree with Shinji. I think Water is mid tier, the only symbols at the bottom s/b Life and Chaos. The latter is hard to pinpoint becuase it is so seldom played alone, but I don't think (alone) it is an agressive enough symbol to put a dent in any defensive deck.

Water doesn't have good damage pump, sides Plasma Beam and Sardine, Genocide, the other Water action card (Yi Shan), oh wait it does have attacks...

Fire isn't without substance, nor is it without draw... Ready for Anything and A Years Difference need to have a word with Shinji. Control - Manifest and Yoga, Experienced Combatant... etc. Evil Plans, Willful as counters to hack.

Bottom line though, both of these symbols are to oft overshadowed by stronger symbols - i.e. in many cases the good fire/water characters also have either order or death, and in most cases these are more efficient picks.

... I think a strong water or fire deck could top at worlds. It's just a matter of one of many strong players making the choice to play one of them over a 'proven to be more conventional' symbol on one of the stronger characters.

- dut

OK, OK, I get it. I'll fix the tier ratings later, then.

Water's defense is crap against decks that screw with your ability to block. It basically has Battle Prowess, and ways to help it block. If you get Psycho Style'd down and then hit with a series of fast attacks, or one huge Raphael/Hilde bomb that's just far too much, you're screwed. Compare to Earth with Battle Prowess, Amy's, Cutting Edge, Holding Ground, Criminal Past, la la la... until you beat Earth's staging area, you have no hope, and even then you have to deal with a huge vitality total.

I don't want to start belaboring the point, but head up against Earth there's Torn Hero to deal with. Order coincidentally has a lot of the same cards you're listing, plus Ira Spinta and Experienced Combatant, and it has trouble against Earth. Especially trying to kill Earth. It's hard to control as many pieces as you would need to control in the Earth matchup, and in a deck that you're filling with cards like Bigger They Are and Aquakinesis -- chances are good when you're trying to put together consecutive kill turns, you'll draw into relatively dead cards like that which, should you play them, will help your opponent's mill or Beach Special win more than your own offense.

I see the cards Water has available and compare them to the things that Good or Death have, and the gap is just too massive. Good has two fairly fantastic win buttons with Raphael+FoF and Hilde, supported by Heel Snipe/Ichi no Tachi/Bringing the Master ot His Knees/Shadow Blade, better reduction options including 100% of "return to printed" effects, better counter-control...

EDIT: Sowwy I didn't see the second page.

Which is why I listed the Seong Mi-Na hypothetical. Kinda hard to glorify a staging area that is heavily bastardized by Water's CBoxing, PMal, and the awesomeness that is Shadow Blade (and recurring it).

You didn't include Zi Mei in Fires "Standout Characters", in my opinion she is the soul of fire now outside of Hilde possibly who also didn't get an include in that list, not sure why, maybe you just forgot about them, or what ever

The reason Hilde isn't a stand-out character is because I have found that she works best in a tri-symbol sort of deck, but mainly off Good or Order as a base, in order to gain access to better redux, and then use Fire 's muscle to win.

Zi Mei is my mistake, though. I think she's better off of Death or Evil , but she's just too good in all 3 symbols.

Yeh Hilde is better off of Good or Tri-symbol, I do concur there. And Zi Mei is horribly over powered, she is probably one of the strongest characters around either from a control or Aggro point of view. Especially with Fury of the Ancients.

Shinji, I think you really underestimate fire, to be honest. I've been toying with it some lately, and I really enjoy it, it's definitely not a low tier. As for attacks, it's got an incredible amount of really good ones, and i don't even use flayer launcher breaker combo. I'm runnin a yang that spams out foundations and cobra blows for great justice, but it still is a foundation omnoming deck. It easily can drop 5-6 foundations turn 1, and blow up the next. At least actually look at what it has instead of caring about control elements--fire doesn't.