I did make these

While I always admire the effort someone puts into that sort of thing, that's...that's a really powerfully broken set of cards (and you made it the "Face Makeup Shadow" instead of the "Rogue Shadow," just fyi).

Just look at Juno vs. Veteran Instincts, for instance (and is there anything that prevents you from taking both, to be PS 12?). She costs half as much as Engine Upgrade in order to provide the same bonus AND add VI to a ship. That's...a little silly, y'know?

Why's Starkiller PS 8, anyways? Have we ever seen him do anything impressive as a pilot, really? Wasn't the whole point of Juno (who I could see argued for PS 8, certainly at least PS 7 from how she's been described) to be his pilot, in the first place?

What is the firepower 4 based on? What, ever, in the history of the ship, makes you think that's an appropriate number of damage dice to roll, much less to put on a turret? Heck, what's it done to make you think it's got a turret? Heck, what's it done that makes you think it's got firepower 3, much less 4?

Etc, etc, etc. I don't want to dogpile here -- they're cute cards, you found neat artwork, you put some work into it, etc -- but part of sharing your creative work is being prepared for constructive criticism. So...well...here you go.

I made some changes.

I'd buy the ship just for that crew card, and she'd ride on every deci I ever flew, and possibly a phantom with autothrusters.

I appreciate that you've listened to feedback, but I feel like much of it is still being missed.

Here's just one thing: What has Starkiller done to justify him having the same PS value as Luke Skywalker, a better PS than iconic flyboys from other video games like Marek Steele or Keyan Farlander? Furthermore, to justify having an effective PS of 10 (since he'll always have Juno equipped, since everyone would always have Juno equipped)? Furthermore, to justify having an effective PS of 12, better than anyone else in the whole game, because he still has an empty EPT slot he can fill with VI?

So what would a decent PS for him?

6. Tops, he is NOT a pilot. He is force using, and obviously trained to fly - but flying was absolutely never his focal point. Also per my previous post. that Juno card is in autoinclude territory, so it might need toning down.

I made some changes.

Okay, actual feedback:

Pilot card: Maximum of PS6 for Marek. I'd recommend making Eclipse the pilot at PS8 given she is the pilot, consistent with her TIE/x1.

Cut agility from 3 to 2, it's a transport. That'd normally be Agility 1, but for the sake of variety and not having another brickship I'd put it at 2. Given the ship has the cloak action is this even more vital. Five agility is just no. Attacking while cloaked invalidates the cloak mechanic somewhat.

Eclipse crew card cannot raise pilot skill as this'd allow you to push pilot skill above 11. Given PS12 is set as the Beat Everything level (see Roark Garnet and General Rieekan) you'd need to prevent its use with Veteran Instincts.

Phrasing on cards is inconsistent with FFG convention.

So what would a decent PS for him?

How much flying have we seen him do?

From what I remember of the game, and accounting for his impressive hand-eye coordination and reflexes and stuff? I'd feel generous calling him a 5 or a 6. Chewie flew an awful lot in the original trilogy (remember, he's where "fly casual" even comes from, and he was piloting the ship in basically our first anti-TIE fighter dogfight ever), and he's a 5. Heck, so's Hobbie Klivian, a major character in a ton of Rogue Squadron books, long-time member of the best Rebel flight group in the whole game.

What's Marek done? Behind the controls of any ship -- much less the Rogue Shadow -- what's he done, that shows any impressive flyboy skills at all?

In fact, why is he the pilot at all, anyways? Why isn't Juno (the, y'know, pilot) the pilot (for her you can argue a 7 or 8, absolutely), with Starkiller as a crew card, offering up some Focus shenanigans or Vader-esque damage abilities?

How are these?

I think that makes Juno perfect.

Significant improvement, even if it would prevent a PS9 EPT Crew Imperial ship, but that's more of a corner case. Would allow a PS10 boosting Whisper though.

It would be significantly more balanced to make her like Leebo, an "Action:" heading for the boost rather than adding boost. This would keep autothrusters off ships that don't deserve it.... like decimators.

So what would a decent PS for him?

3. He needs a pilot for a reason. I'm sure he can handle the controls, but his skills lie primarily in the force. Now his pilot ability can be something cool (I can't see the images because they are blocked while I'm at work), but his skill should be extremely low. In fact he probably shouldn't even have an EPT. I mean you can argue for him to have an APT since he's a notable character, but he should be a better crew than a pilot.

How are these?

That is actually way, way better and I like it.

So what would a decent PS for him?

3. He needs a pilot for a reason. I'm sure he can handle the controls, but his skills lie primarily in the force. Now his pilot ability can be something cool (I can't see the images because they are blocked while I'm at work), but his skill should be extremely low. In fact he probably shouldn't even have an EPT. I mean you can argue for him to have an APT since he's a notable character, but he should be a better crew than a pilot.

Oi, hold on. Kyle Katarn needs a pilot too but that man can fly pretty good as well. But you're right, Galen isn't known for flying.

TFU paved over by Rebels, so unlikely. It's gotta be something the CEO wants to make, that they can design to their satisfaction and that LFL's got to sign off on it. And that last one I can't really see happening. Pilot names are one thing, they could just make them up and LFL'd probably be fine with it (they did with three of the four phantom pilots, only Sigma is actually sourced from somewhere) a whole ship displayed on the shelf is another.

And even if it were a possibility, I can't see it being high up their priority list.

I can't tell if you actually don't think they'll make it, or you simply don't want them to. The whole Rebels canon thing you keep bringing up is completely moot, which should be perfectly obvious to anyone who's played this game before. How many dead Yavin pilots do we have flying wing-to-wing with Endor vets? How many combinations of upgrades would never, ever have occurred in the SW galaxy we all know and love? Where did the Raider come from? The fact is, fluff has never been an obstacle for FFG when it comes to creating content. Story doesn't matter.

That having been said, I have to disagree about a pilot and a ship being two different things. If they can pull one thing from a supposedly defunct franchise, they can pull another. Imaginary content is imaginary content. Assuming it goes beyond being a mere possibility, I would then conjecture that it actually is high on their priority list. How many other iconic, recognizable ships can they drag out of the EU æther before they run out of gas? Not many.

I actually want to back up WonderWAAAGH here for a moment and say that TFU takes place in 2BBY, whilst Rebels takes place in 5BBY. Though I vaguely recall a direct statement saying TFU was not canon. But it really doesn't matter.

And he's right, if they can pull one thing that can yank another. I would not be terribly surprised to see Jerec in some form in say, Assault or Armada.

If they do make a Rogue Shadow, I hope it's that asymmetrical one.

If they do make a Rogue Shadow, I hope it's that asymmetrical one.

It's okay to call it the "sexy" one.

I just can't jive with that sentiment. It just seems too rough and funky for The Empire. The Empire looooooooooooooooooves their clean, symmetrical, angular lines.

TFU paved over by Rebels, so unlikely. It's gotta be something the CEO wants to make, that they can design to their satisfaction and that LFL's got to sign off on it. And that last one I can't really see happening. Pilot names are one thing, they could just make them up and LFL'd probably be fine with it (they did with three of the four phantom pilots, only Sigma is actually sourced from somewhere) a whole ship displayed on the shelf is another.

And even if it were a possibility, I can't see it being high up their priority list.

I can't tell if you actually don't think they'll make it, or you simply don't want them to. The whole Rebels canon thing you keep bringing up is completely moot, which should be perfectly obvious to anyone who's played this game before. How many dead Yavin pilots do we have flying wing-to-wing with Endor vets? How many combinations of upgrades would never, ever have occurred in the SW galaxy we all know and love? Where did the Raider come from? The fact is, fluff has never been an obstacle for FFG when it comes to creating content. Story doesn't matter.

That having been said, I have to disagree about a pilot and a ship being two different things. If they can pull one thing from a supposedly defunct franchise, they can pull another. Imaginary content is imaginary content. Assuming it goes beyond being a mere possibility, I would then conjecture that it actually is high on their priority list. How many other iconic, recognizable ships can they drag out of the EU æther before they run out of gas? Not many.

First one, I don't think they'll make it.

As for pilots and ships being different things:

All a pilot is is a line of text on a card. That's it. They're not advertised on the box, outside of promo cards they're not even depicted. They could make up pilot names (they did with Echo and Whisper) and it'd make no difference. Echo and Whisper are actually excellent examples, no history, no story, no appearance, just a name. They didn't have to go through the lengthy back and forth design and backstory process the Raider demanded, they've just got names that they're not even consistent on the genders of. Yes, LFL'd stop them if they tried to make that rabbit from the old Marvel comics into a pilot, but LFL are, according to the interviews, pretty lenient on where they'll let FFG source pilot names from.

I'll also point out that Juno Eclipse is being depicted as a TIE/x1 pilot, so they're sourcing her from her fighter pilot days. TFU's overwrite courtesy of Rebels doesn't necessarily overwrite that.

A pilot is a line of text, sometimes with a picture. If you look at what the card game and RPGs get away with and compare it to X-wing, well, do you think they'd make the H-wing for this game?

A ship, however, is a full on product. It's got a physical model, its name is on the shelf, it's advertised and sold. LFL's new canon doesn't just decanonise TFU, it overwrites it, therefore it strikes me as highly unlikely based on current information that LFL would approve it. The Shadow isn't in the same position as the Crow, it's in the same position as the Coralskipper, in the same position as the Sith Stalker version of Marek. If this game were being made in 2007 then LFL'd be all over getting Rogue Shadow into the game, but now?

Also, "fluff" and "story" as you've used them are not the same thing.

The whole Rebels canon thing you keep bringing up is completely moot, which should be perfectly obvious to anyone who's played this game before. How many dead Yavin pilots do we have flying wing-to-wing with Endor vets? How many combinations of upgrades would never, ever have occurred in the SW galaxy we all know and love? Where did the Raider come from? The fact is, fluff has never been an obstacle for FFG when it comes to creating content. Story doesn't matter.

This entire section is pretty much irrelevant, and it's because you've mixed up "fluff", "story" and canon. None of those three are the same thing. Every component FFG releases as a product that LFL approves. LFL had huge input into the Raider design, LFL is the one who gets the final say on if they can release a ship or not, and I fail to see how players being able to mix pilots that weren't in the Rebel Alliance at the same time has anything to do with what LFL'll approve FFG to make.

How many other iconic, recognizable ships can they drag out of the EU æther before they run out of gas?

Start a thread asking this question and you'll drown in them.

I actually want to back up WonderWAAAGH here for a moment and say that TFU takes place in 2BBY, whilst Rebels takes place in 5BBY. Though I vaguely recall a direct statement saying TFU was not canon. But it really doesn't matter.

And he's right, if they can pull one thing that can yank another. I would not be terribly surprised to see Jerec in some form in say, Assault or Armada.

Rebels states the Rebel Alliance doesn't exist yet, and it concerns its formation. TFU is about the formation of the Rebel Alliance. TFU II stays in the dusty box where it belongs. TFU I was incredible, the sequel somehow managed to remove what made it fun.

Jerec in Armada is again a line of text. Jerec in Assault would be a full on Villain Pack release and I can't see that happening.

Imaginary content is still imaginary content. I remain wholly unconvinced.

I'll edit in a more detailed response later.

TFU is a trove of assets to be plundered, and I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest to see EVO troopers, Shadow Troopers, Shadow Guards, Jump Troopers and Purge Troopers again, and something very similiar to the AT-KT exists in Imperial Assault. Fairly sure LEGO released something with Shadow Guards and Shadow Troopers in it last year. I just don't see the Rogue Shadow, it being a unique ship only used by the now defunct Starkiller, as a probability.

Well, I don't think we have to worry about prequel content in this regard. TFU is to the OT as Dante was to the Renaissance.

My point was more that if LFL have retconned the formation part of the Rebel Alliance out the TFU plot so they can use it for SWR are they likely to approve the Rogue Shadow, a ship that exists only in association with the retconned Starkiller (the rest of TFU, Juno Eclipse included, can still exist independently without writing any new plot)? The answer to that is the answer to if FFG can make the Rogue Shadow. The other thing you'd need is for FFG to want to make the Rogue Shadow, and want to make it more than anything else on the figurative to do list. If so, you'll see it. If not, as I believe is the case, then our TFU reference will remain as Juno Eclipse's TIE advanced x1.

Although I will state that were a Rogue Shadow currently in the works I don't think Juno Eclipse would have been used as a TIE/x1 pilot, and if a Rogue Shadow isn't we're not going to see it for a loooooong time given how far FFG works ahead.

'cuz I am not even remotely interested in it. Though I find the illustration on page one somewhat interesting, I am still not really attracted to it. I was never a player of whatever video game it came from and thus do not have any "fond memories". Then again, I never "flew" the TIE Defender (or Avenger) in any video game either, but have always found those designs... inspiring. I have always found the (original) Rogue Shadow design to be rather unappealing- just not into the asymmetrical nature of those fins/solar panels/radiator thingies. Don't really see what it would bring to the game, and would much rather have FFG prioritize a more interesting and useful ship (IMO) like GAT-12 Skipray, YT-2000, XG-1 Starwing Assault Boat, Mist Hunter, etc... I tend to put it the same category as Slave-2 and the K-wing... not just ugly... but f*^&ing ugly!

If FFG makes it, I probably would not buy it just on GP.

'nuff said.

Yikes. I would never categorize those ships as interesting and especially wouldn't as useful... The mist hunter looks like the short bus of the galaxy. The same could be said for the rest of those. The yt2000 is another sad excuse of a kitbash. Opinions are opinions though.