It's canon so by all means find a clip and link it here.

Granted, there's also having to find such a clip, and the fact I've not actually watched the entirety of The Clone Wars.

But you need to get over this idea that X-Wings are the bomb-diggity. They're great, but they're not invincible.

But you need to get over this idea that X-Wings are the bomb-diggity. They're great, but they're not invincible.

Did he ever say that? What he said was the ARC-170's only film appearance was the Battle of Coruscant where they were massacred by the CIS's automated starfighters.

So, what, the TIE/D wasn't a threat ever?

Assuming you mean the square winged TIE droid from Dark Empire, were it more effective than a TIE fighter, were it even close, why would the Empire train human pilots to fly their deathtraps with solar panels TIE fighters? Its advantage was that the World Devastators could pump them out.

I haven't actually seen either in the new canon or FFG's material yet though.

Can you show a fight where arc's did well?

Depends what you mean by that. Centre stage, no, as the protagonists tend to fly Eta-2s. Not being slaughtered as a distraction force, just about any appearance other than RotS.

My take on that is that they wanted different things, so they made new ships to match their new requirements, I didn't assume it was because technology had improved.

A starfighter's a starfighter.

This 4000 year stagnation thing is silly. Firstly, the new canon doesn't have KoTOR and TOR in it. Secondly, KoTOR and TOR only look that way because they were big releases and they wanted them to look recognisably Star Wars. The technology likely was far less impressive 4000 years back. Thirdly, you get starfighters designed to replace other starfighters: the TIE interceptor being a replacement for the TIE fighter being an example. Why build the fighter if you could have just made the interceptor in the first place? Why bother with the AT-AT if the AT-TE is just as good? Why go to all the effort to make X-wings? Why can't the Rebels make their own superlaser if there's been no advancement in 4000 years? In the GCW the Y-wing is frequently stated to be getting on a bit, and it's significantly newer than most of the Clone Wars tech.

That you could upgrade a ship to GCW specs with new tech is fair enough, but if you grabbed an N1 out of a museum with all its original 33 BBY parts it's going to struggle. You won't see a whole squadron go down to a lone TIE fighter but put it against a modern Z-95 in a 12 on 12 and it'll be in trouble.

But you need to get over this idea that X-Wings are the bomb-diggity. They're great, but they're not invincible.

Did he ever say that? What he said was the ARC-170's only film appearance was the Battle of Coruscant where they were massacred by the CIS's automated starfighters.

Well ****, what didn't get massacred in that fight?

Plot armoured Eta-2s.

It's canon so by all means find a clip and link it here.

Granted, there's also having to find such a clip, and the fact I've not actually watched the entirety of The Clone Wars.

But you need to get over this idea that X-Wings are the bomb-diggity. They're great, but they're not invincible.

Again your strawmanning I said no such thing.

But you need to get over this idea that X-Wings are the bomb-diggity. They're great, but they're not invincible.

Did he ever say that? What he said was the ARC-170's only film appearance was the Battle of Coruscant where they were massacred by the CIS's automated starfighters.

So, what, the TIE/D wasn't a threat ever?

Assuming you mean the square winged TIE droid from Dark Empire, were it more effective than a TIE fighter, were it even close, why would the Empire train human pilots to fly their deathtraps with solar panels TIE fighters? Its advantage was that the World Devastators could pump them out.

I haven't actually seen either in the new canon or FFG's material yet though.

Can you show a fight where arc's did well?

Depends what you mean by that. Centre stage, no, as the protagonists tend to fly Eta-2s. Not being slaughtered as a distraction force, just about any appearance other than RotS.

My take on that is that they wanted different things, so they made new ships to match their new requirements, I didn't assume it was because technology had improved.

A starfighter's a starfighter.

This 4000 year stagnation thing is silly. Firstly, the new canon doesn't have KoTOR and TOR in it. Secondly, KoTOR and TOR only look that way because they were big releases and they wanted them to look recognisably Star Wars. The technology likely was far less impressive 4000 years back. Thirdly, you get starfighters designed to replace other starfighters: the TIE interceptor being a replacement for the TIE fighter being an example. Why build the fighter if you could have just made the interceptor in the first place? Why bother with the AT-AT if the AT-TE is just as good? Why go to all the effort to make X-wings? Why can't the Rebels make their own superlaser if there's been no advancement in 4000 years? In the GCW the Y-wing is frequently stated to be getting on a bit, and it's significantly newer than most of the Clone Wars tech.

That you could upgrade a ship to GCW specs with new tech is fair enough, but if you grabbed an N1 out of a museum with all its original 33 BBY parts it's going to struggle. You won't see a whole squadron go down to a lone TIE fighter but put it against a modern Z-95 in a 12 on 12 and it'll be in trouble.

ok 4000 years of stagnation is not quite right but the tech didn't get better by much it just became cleaner and cheaper the Aurek-class tactical strikefighter, was in front lie service in the eu for 3000 years and probably still in service with some world as late as the yu zong vong war the thing is the tech has already reached near operational limits only new tech such as the superweaps of the maw insterlation or new types of shields change the face of the game significantly the only real areas of advance are armour and power plant and don't forget that war is the principle reason for technological advance ment and at the time of episode 1 there hasn't been i in a thousand years

Aurek-class tactical strikefighter, link http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Aurek_tactical_strikefighter

as to the new cannon who knows

"Although the Aurek fighters saw combat throughout a time span of 3,000 years, they underwent extensive upgrades and revisions from one era to the next."

So basically it under went continual change, if technology was stagnant it would be the same from first production run to the last.

Since it has become relevant again, my post from a few pages ago

I've mentioned this before but, the impression I kinda get is that the various generations of starfighters, and military tech in general in the SW universe, is not because of actual technological improvements, but rather, to put it in a gamer sense, changes in the meta of warfare in the universe. The impression I got from the prequels is that conflict in the old republic was really very formalized, almost ritualistic. The whole issue surrounding the Trade Federation blockade of Naboo was almost like a bureaucratic procedure not a military action. If the Senate had declared their actions illegal they would have been expected to pack up and leave without a fight, that they invaded (seemingly without cause or provocation) was unusual and unexpected.

This leads me to think that "warfare" in the old republic was not what we would think of, but more like the ceremonial combat of the middle ages that could be just as deadly, but was governed by specific rules that could not be broken. And like combat among medieval nobles, the artificial nature of the fighting led to development of military tech that was basically worthless outside of the rules of engagement of that specific culture.

The Old Republic operated in that kind of environment for generations, and the tech they developed to fight evolved in that same environment. When the Emperor instigated the Clone Wars, he changed the paradigm under which war was waged in the universe, and the changes in military tech throughout the period of the clone wars and then the GCW represent, not improvements in the actual technology (which appears to be fairly stagnant in SW) but changes in how the technology is being applied to try and find the most effective combinations for the new war meta.

Now, a lot of the EU background material won't support this viewpoint, but it does make a measure of sense and helps to explain the apparent stagnation of technology on the one hand and the rapid development of new, more effective warships throughout the period on the other.

I think it's true that there are changes happening in the OT, and in the prequels both. However, just because things are different, doesn't mean they're better than everything older. For example, the SR-71 Blackbirdvfirst saw service in 1966. It's still faster than anything we have today. We don't use them anymore because of spy satellites being much cheaper and easier and producing better results. But as aircraft, they're far beyond the speed and altitude specs of anything we have in our current arsenal. Price matters and mission role matters. I think there is room to argue the N-1 was as capable as the ships in the GCW era. It's clearly highly-advanced and is stated to be extremely expensive, in limited runs for a single planet's purposes. It probably doesn't suit the needs of the Empire or the Rebellion, as I stated earlier, but that doesn't mean the tech is worse. Another good analogy would be to Ferrari. Their cars are handmade. They physically can't produce a huge volume of them, and they don't want to or need to. If you think of the N-1 as a Ferrari, a handmade starfighter that has a high unit cost, fabulous performance, and no ability to enter mass production, I think you answer a lot of these questions, and I think it fits nicely with the canon.

If it's of such limited production and value outside its backward, isolated home planet, that's just another reason for the mosquito ship to never enter the game.

If it's of such limited production and value outside its backward, isolated home planet, that's just another reason for the mosquito ship to never enter the game.

Soooooo... how many Aggressors were built, then?

The Aggressor is IG-88's ship.

But you need to get over this idea that X-Wings are the bomb-diggity. They're great, but they're not invincible.

Did he ever say that? What he said was the ARC-170's only film appearance was the Battle of Coruscant where they were massacred by the CIS's automated starfighters.

So, what, the TIE/D wasn't a threat ever?

Assuming you mean the square winged TIE droid from Dark Empire, were it more effective than a TIE fighter, were it even close, why would the Empire train human pilots to fly their deathtraps with solar panels TIE fighters? Its advantage was that the World Devastators could pump them out.

I haven't actually seen either in the new canon or FFG's material yet though.

Can you show a fight where arc's did well?

Depends what you mean by that. Centre stage, no, as the protagonists tend to fly Eta-2s. Not being slaughtered as a distraction force, just about any appearance other than RotS.

My take on that is that they wanted different things, so they made new ships to match their new requirements, I didn't assume it was because technology had improved.

A starfighter's a starfighter.

This 4000 year stagnation thing is silly. Firstly, the new canon doesn't have KoTOR and TOR in it. Secondly, KoTOR and TOR only look that way because they were big releases and they wanted them to look recognisably Star Wars. The technology likely was far less impressive 4000 years back. Thirdly, you get starfighters designed to replace other starfighters: the TIE interceptor being a replacement for the TIE fighter being an example. Why build the fighter if you could have just made the interceptor in the first place? Why bother with the AT-AT if the AT-TE is just as good? Why go to all the effort to make X-wings? Why can't the Rebels make their own superlaser if there's been no advancement in 4000 years? In the GCW the Y-wing is frequently stated to be getting on a bit, and it's significantly newer than most of the Clone Wars tech.

That you could upgrade a ship to GCW specs with new tech is fair enough, but if you grabbed an N1 out of a museum with all its original 33 BBY parts it's going to struggle. You won't see a whole squadron go down to a lone TIE fighter but put it against a modern Z-95 in a 12 on 12 and it'll be in trouble.

ok 4000 years of stagnation is not quite right but the tech didn't get better by much it just became cleaner and cheaper the Aurek-class tactical strikefighter, was in front lie service in the eu for 3000 years and probably still in service with some world as late as the yu zong vong war the thing is the tech has already reached near operational limits only new tech such as the superweaps of the maw insterlation or new types of shields change the face of the game significantly the only real areas of advance are armour and power plant and don't forget that war is the principle reason for technological advance ment and at the time of episode 1 there hasn't been i in a thousand years

Aurek-class tactical strikefighter, link http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Aurek_tactical_strikefighter

as to the new cannon who knows

That's KoTOR, and it lasts that long because they couldn't be arsed to make new art assets. That's it.

Plus new canon, which seems to be thinking things through a lot more.

If it's of such limited production and value outside its backward, isolated home planet, that's just another reason for the mosquito ship to never enter the game.

Soooooo... how many Aggressors were built, then?

no idea probably hundreds or thousands the only ones we saw in the eu were the ig2000s but we do know others existed

I think it's true that there are changes happening in the OT, and in the prequels both. However, just because things are different, doesn't mean they're better than everything older. For example, the SR-71 Blackbirdvfirst saw service in 1966. It's still faster than anything we have today. We don't use them anymore because of spy satellites being much cheaper and easier and producing better results. But as aircraft, they're far beyond the speed and altitude specs of anything we have in our current arsenal. Price matters and mission role matters. I think there is room to argue the N-1 was as capable as the ships in the GCW era. It's clearly highly-advanced and is stated to be extremely expensive, in limited runs for a single planet's purposes. It probably doesn't suit the needs of the Empire or the Rebellion, as I stated earlier, but that doesn't mean the tech is worse. Another good analogy would be to Ferrari. Their cars are handmade. They physically can't produce a huge volume of them, and they don't want to or need to. If you think of the N-1 as a Ferrari, a handmade starfighter that has a high unit cost, fabulous performance, and no ability to enter mass production, I think you answer a lot of these questions, and I think it fits nicely with the canon.

God, thank you.

The Aggressor is IG-88's ship.

But you need to get over this idea that X-Wings are the bomb-diggity. They're great, but they're not invincible.

Did he ever say that? What he said was the ARC-170's only film appearance was the Battle of Coruscant where they were massacred by the CIS's automated starfighters.

So, what, the TIE/D wasn't a threat ever?

Assuming you mean the square winged TIE droid from Dark Empire, were it more effective than a TIE fighter, were it even close, why would the Empire train human pilots to fly their deathtraps with solar panels TIE fighters? Its advantage was that the World Devastators could pump them out.

I haven't actually seen either in the new canon or FFG's material yet though.

Can you show a fight where arc's did well?

Depends what you mean by that. Centre stage, no, as the protagonists tend to fly Eta-2s. Not being slaughtered as a distraction force, just about any appearance other than RotS.

My take on that is that they wanted different things, so they made new ships to match their new requirements, I didn't assume it was because technology had improved.

A starfighter's a starfighter.

This 4000 year stagnation thing is silly. Firstly, the new canon doesn't have KoTOR and TOR in it. Secondly, KoTOR and TOR only look that way because they were big releases and they wanted them to look recognisably Star Wars. The technology likely was far less impressive 4000 years back. Thirdly, you get starfighters designed to replace other starfighters: the TIE interceptor being a replacement for the TIE fighter being an example. Why build the fighter if you could have just made the interceptor in the first place? Why bother with the AT-AT if the AT-TE is just as good? Why go to all the effort to make X-wings? Why can't the Rebels make their own superlaser if there's been no advancement in 4000 years? In the GCW the Y-wing is frequently stated to be getting on a bit, and it's significantly newer than most of the Clone Wars tech.

That you could upgrade a ship to GCW specs with new tech is fair enough, but if you grabbed an N1 out of a museum with all its original 33 BBY parts it's going to struggle. You won't see a whole squadron go down to a lone TIE fighter but put it against a modern Z-95 in a 12 on 12 and it'll be in trouble.

ok 4000 years of stagnation is not quite right but the tech didn't get better by much it just became cleaner and cheaper the Aurek-class tactical strikefighter, was in front lie service in the eu for 3000 years and probably still in service with some world as late as the yu zong vong war the thing is the tech has already reached near operational limits only new tech such as the superweaps of the maw insterlation or new types of shields change the face of the game significantly the only real areas of advance are armour and power plant and don't forget that war is the principle reason for technological advance ment and at the time of episode 1 there hasn't been i in a thousand years

Aurek-class tactical strikefighter, link http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Aurek_tactical_strikefighter

as to the new cannon who knows

That's KoTOR, and it lasts that long because they couldn't be arsed to make new art assets. That's it.

Plus new canon, which seems to be thinking things through a lot more.

THIS.

I loved KOTOR but HAAAAAAAATED how the tech was stagnant for so long, it was the STUPIDEST thing.

The old canon's explanation was that every piece of content is a window into the Legends Star Wars universe, a tale rather than a factual account, and some are foggier than others. KoTOR likely had much older tech, but to keep it looking Star Wars everything looks ANHish, with stylistic variation to make it look like another time. If you look at TCW, that ancient lightsaber is implied to be 1000 years old, the ones in KoTOR look normal. So either they regressed massively, or KoTOR and TOR only look like modern tech to make it appear more Star Wars for commercial release.

As for the KoTOR ships appearing in the Legends 1000 BBY New Sith Wars, that's quite literally to make it look KoTOR. If TOR had come out beforehand they'd have used the TOR assets (which did update the appearances: the Hammerhead gives way to the Thranta for example).

If it's of such limited production and value outside its backward, isolated home planet, that's just another reason for the mosquito ship to never enter the game.

Soooooo... how many Aggressors were built, then?

no idea probably hundreds or thousands the only ones we saw in the eu were the ig2000s but we do know others existed

But the only version of the ship in the game is the IG-2000. So how many IG-2000s were built?

The Aggressor also shows up in some of Traviss's Legends stuff. One of the Mary Suedalorians has one.

But the only version of the ship in the game is the IG-2000. So how many IG-2000s were built?

If you want to play it like that the game contains exactly one YT-1300, two Firesprays, one HWK...

The Aggressor is in the game to put IG-88 in the game, who's a (as much as I hate to use the word) "iconic" bounty hunter from ESB, with a significant presence around the galaxy.

The N1'd struggle a little for a place in the Clone Wars version of X-wing, getting in only because of its film appearance. GCW? Can't see it happening. It's neither in era, in use by any faction, mechanically unique nor has an iconic pilot (it doesn't have any GCW pilots come to think of it). It's got nothing going for it but a film appearance, and if LFL thought that was a reason it'd be in the game already.

The ARC-170 I can see potentially happening further down the line when FFG's current ideas run out in Imperial grey, same with the V-wing. But the N1? Can't see that one happening.

What I'm saying is that you can't credibly cite "there weren't many built" as a reason not to include the N-1 in a game that features the IG-2000. The difference between the IG-2000 and, say, the Firespray is that X-Wing's got a card for "All The Umpty-Thousands Of Firesprays In The Galaxy That Aren't Flown By Anyone We're On First-Name Terms With". It doesn't have a "Generic Aggressor".

Also: I'd contend that the average person on the street (or even the average fan of Star Wars) is more likely to recognise a Naboo Starfighter than an IG-2000. Or even IG-88 himself. So what's more "iconic"?

(Personally, I think the N-1 looks kind of nice in a Buck Rogers sort of way, but I'd be happy if I never got reminded of the existence of The Phantom Mess again for as long as I live, so I'm entirely ambivalent about it being included in the game, and can see loads of good arguments as to why it shouldn't be. It's just that specific reason I'm taking issue with).

Also, according to Wookieepedia, the Firespray was supposed to be a limited-run ship, a prototype in fact, with six total units built. And, drumroll please, it was first produced prior to the Battle of Naboo. So, we have a prequel-era ship that predates the Clone Wars in a more limited run than the N-1, and it's in the game with no complaints. Granted, its antiquity is something that was added later by Lucas when he made the prequels, but that antiquity is canon, and nobody has ever brought it up as a reason for it to perform poorly.

I don't think the game will add the N-1. I don't think it makes sense as a release, but that wasn't the discussion I was having either. I was talking performance capabilities vis a vis GCW ships.

It doesn't have a "Generic Aggressor".

Doesn't mean a generic Aggressor doesn't exist. There aren't exactly three TIE interceptor squadrons in existence, Alpha, Avenger and Saber.

Because large ship expansions have four cards and there are four IG-88s. Generic Aggressors do exist, just without the extensive modifications of IG-88's. Given how they've worded IG-2000 they'll never release a generic Aggressor, but they easily could have. It wouldn't be called the Aggressor if it were a unique ship, it'd just be IG-2000.

What I'm saying is that you can't credibly cite "there weren't many built" as a reason not to include the N-1 in a game that features the IG-2000.

The reasons the IG-2000 is in the game don't apply to the N-1. It has no GCW pilots. It isn't a neat fit into any of the factions without shoehorning it. And before you give me "the Rebels could have used it" I'll point out that every single ship currently in the game is an unquestionable fit into its faction. It's not "could they have used that", it's "that is a Rebel ship".

And he said that where? His words were "If it's of such limited production and value outside its backward, isolated home planet, that's just another reason for the mosquito ship to never enter the game." That's not saying "not many were built so don't include it", that's saying you don't see it outside of Naboo's planetary defence and escort. In terms of presence around the galaxy it's about on the same level as those Yevethan fighters on E'tahn's card or the Wookiee starfighters from Galactic Battlegrounds. IG-88 however, is a bounty hunter. He goes everywhere there's work.

Also: I'd contend that the average person on the street (or even the average fan of Star Wars) is more likely to recognise a Naboo Starfighter than an IG-2000. Or even IG-88 himself. So what's more "iconic"?

In a, I quote FFG, "GCW forward" context? The N-1's not even in it.

A ship's inclusion in X-wing has to be based on its presence in the Imperial era. I actually struggle to think of a graphical source in the Legends canon depicting the N-1 in use by any of the game's three factions in that era.

The old Republic fighters like the V-wings and ARCs are Imperial (albeit obsolete) if you put them in grey livery, and the V-wing could be spun as Scum. But the N-1 is not a Republic fighter.

Also, according to Wookieepedia, the Firespray was supposed to be a limited-run ship, a prototype in fact, with six total units built. And, drumroll please, it was first produced prior to the Battle of Naboo. So, we have a prequel-era ship that predates the Clone Wars in a more limited run than the N-1, and it's in the game with no complaints. Granted, its antiquity is something that was added later by Lucas when he made the prequels, but that antiquity is canon, and nobody has ever brought it up as a reason for it to perform poorly.

I don't think the game will add the N-1. I don't think it makes sense as a release, but that wasn't the discussion I was having either. I was talking performance capabilities vis a vis GCW ships.

The one fight scene it has it utterly fails to kill an unshielded target.

We see it flying through space and taking off from bespin in the OT movies it's never in a fight so we have zero clue how well or how poorly it would perform.

Your argument is bootless.

It would be a fair point were it not for the fact that the Slave I is not identical to its original specs and that there's more than one Firespray in existence.

Also, according to Wookieepedia, the Firespray was supposed to be a limited-run ship, a prototype in fact, with six total units built. And, drumroll please, it was first produced prior to the Battle of Naboo. So, we have a prequel-era ship that predates the Clone Wars in a more limited run than the N-1, and it's in the game with no complaints. Granted, its antiquity is something that was added later by Lucas when he made the prequels, but that antiquity is canon, and nobody has ever brought it up as a reason for it to perform poorly.

I don't think the game will add the N-1. I don't think it makes sense as a release, but that wasn't the discussion I was having either. I was talking performance capabilities vis a vis GCW ships.

The one fight scene it has it utterly fails to kill an unshielded target.

We see it flying through space and taking off from bespin in the OT movies it's never in a fight so we have zero clue how well or how poorly it would perform.

Your argument is bootless.

Except we do know how well it performs in the game, which was the issue we were discussing with the N-1, its relative performance on a hypothetical card. I don't think the card will ever be made, but I think the points I was making were actually quite strong in that direction. The fact that the Firespray was a pre-Clone Wars design, but it performs well in X-wing compared to other large base ships (despite, as you point out, never having fired a shot in the OT) tells us that pre-Clone Wars designs are not hopelessly backwards compared to GCW ships, nor are they, necessarily, outperformed by any reasonable measure.

The fact that the Firespray was a pre-Clone Wars design,

Only the Slave I is an original Firespray, and that's a ship that's been modified countless times by both owners, undergone multiple overhauls and a complete refit by KSE.

The other Firesprays were manufactured by KSE in the Imperial era.

If you're going to quote Wookiee please read the whole thing. The original Firespray run had six prototypes, five of which were destroyed. The sixth is Slave I, a ship that's been stripped down, modified and outright overhauled so extensively over the years that it's never out of date, in fact, it's probably slightly ahead.

Kuat Systems Engineering resumed production of the Firespray in the Imperial era after it recovered financially, which explains the existence of Krassis, Kath, Emon, Mandalorian Mercenary and Bounty Hunter's Firesprays.

I don't think the game will add the N-1. I don't think it makes sense as a release, but that wasn't the discussion I was having either. I was talking performance capabilities vis a vis GCW ships.

If you mothballed one after the Battle of Naboo (33 BBY) and then pulled it out in 4 ABY it's going to struggle. But it strikes me as unlikely the Naboo wouldn't update the N-1 over 37 years, assuming of course that the Theed starfighter corps are still in charge of the defence of Naboo and the Empire haven't taken it over.

I did read the whole article, but I missed that bit - like three times. So, I appreciate the correction as now the logic of the Legends account makes way more sense than it did to me before. But that doesn't really change anything so far as the argument goes concerning performance. If you can pull a 30 year old design out of the closet and have it perform well-enough for people to want to buy it, that either argues for technological stagnation on some level, or it argues for the ease of upgrading avionics, with the flight envelope being fairly stagnant. Either way, the N-1 would benefit from the same arguments.