Saratai said:

Im not saying that they are stupid. It's just that Space Marines will never plausibly be able to be in other situations than combat or training for combat. THey are bred for war and nothing else. Space Marines are only ever called in when they are expected to kill or conquer something, and when they are not doing that they spend all of their time training, praying and going through routine medical check-ups at their fortress monastery.

This makes them too limited to be interesting as PC's. It would be like Dark Heresy, but the only career path available is the Guardsman career-path, and you don't serve undercover with an Inquisitor but have to follow the orders of your commanding officer, oh and you are forced to have the Chem-geld talent and be pretty much completely unaffected by the varied emotional spectrum of normal humans.

But sure, a GM or FFG for that matter could change these issues. But if a GM or FFG would do that, then they would completely disregard from pretty much every piece of canon descriptions of how the life of a Space Marine is. But if that's the plan then you have to ask yourself, why do Deathwatch in the WH40K setting at all, if your plan is to change pretty much everything that makes it 40K?

Im not saying that Space Marines are inherently stupid, im just saying that in a game about Space Marines, any eventual personalities, thoughts, feelings, philosophical musings etc. (you know, all the important bits of a personality) will play only a secondary role at best, because Space Marines are bred for war, and war alone. They are angels of death, and angels are not human and do not do the same things humans do.

The Emperor doesn't give a crap about a Space Marines possible existential musings, as long as he is killing the enemies of mankind, wherever and whatever they may be...

Being kidnapped at the age of ~11, then growing up without any contact with family, normal society or women, your normal day including fighting, fighting and more fighting, being constantly tortured, operated and brainwashed doesn't help your social skills either.

Spartans were a much less radical example of that upbringing, and still the only Spartan poet or writer was the one that Athens gave them in leasing.

I'm not saying that Marines are dumb - they are clearly very skilled at tactics etc. It's juust that they have no need for abstractive thinking or communication with other people.

(BL novels not withstanding, because single-minded fighting drones would be too boring even for them.)

In keeping with canon, the Deathwatch serves one purpose. Fighting aliens with special wargear. Dark Heresy is built around different aspects of the Inquisition. Its my opinion that a Space Marine character would be as obvious as an alien (compared to humans they are alien) acolyte, and just as ineffective in that role.

Of course you can force the issue with your group- thats the fun of roleplaying. But its not Dark Heresy. On the other hand I too would like to see Marine stats for when I send the group after Gene-seed samples and such. I expect to see some higher end stats in the Ascension book.

Idaan you need to read up on the spartans more.

While it is true they did not have many great writers they do have more one liners than anyone

Where do you think the term laconic wit/humour comes from?

Idaan said:

They aren't always "kidnapped" there Idaan. On some worlds it is an honor to be chosen to "go with the star gods" to fight their battles "in heaven". I believe Baal Secundus is a good example, wherein all able-bodied youths are given arduous, life-threatening tasks to perform, then, once suceeding that, they fight amongst themselves for the honor of being taken away.

My campaign has a feral assassin whose world is regularly visited by Dark Angel reps. He usually have some really good roleplay come out of that fact alone

I'd note that I think Deathwatch strikes me as offering a much more action-adventure opportunity for the RPG setting than DH and RT. With DH we have a primary focus being investigation (how many skills use Int?). With RT, it strikes me as much more of a questing-adventure. DW is the opportunity to deploy a fine-tuned system with the aim of it being used for all sorts of combat.

In terms of making Astartes interesting to play, I cite Steve Parkers' Headhunted short story from Heroes of the Space Marines. Provided high-level character generation is quite...'quick' in DW, I forsee it being an excellent action-RPG. Different from RT and DH, but that's the point.

At present, I'm content to be 'lacking' many of the 'game' archetypes. I think the Aliens of 40k make for intriguing opportunities too. And Inquisitors. And... etc.

Of all the antagonists possible in the Warhammer 40k setting, chaos space marines rank alongside C'tan avatars as "least suitable antagonists for a DH game". IMO.

I don't know, I could see some uses for Chaos Marine antagonists. The biggest example are the Alpha Legion, who enjoy personally stirring up Chaos Cultist activity. It wouldn't be unheard of to find Alpha Legion Marines amongst Cultists. Then we've got the Fallen Dark Angels, many of whom have dispersed amongst the civilian populations of many worlds. Wouldn't you want to be the Inquisitor who ferrets out the Dark Angels' secret shame? And then we've got the Red Corsairs, essentially piratical Chaos Marines. An Inquisitor operating around the Maelstrom can expect to run into them. Or Thousand Sons serving Ahriman trying to locate the Black Library. If you're an Inquisitor allied with the Eldar, with knowledge of the Black Library, who's even walked in it (like Inquisitor Czevak), then you'd be extremely keen on the idea of keeping the Thousand Sons from finding it.

Just a couple examples, there. Thanks for the tip, though. I'll check out Purge the Unclean ASAP. It'll certainly be nice to have some kind of idea of how Space Marine abilities translate to the real world (I.E. with lifting capacities, etc).

Friend of the Dork said:

Intelligence 31, Forbidden Lore (warp) mastery +20, Talented (Forbidden Lore Warp) +10. At a CHALLENGING test you have a 61% chance of success without ever putting your Int above the average roll.

But like I said, there are sample inquisitors in the Disciples of the Dark gods. So inquisitors do exist and are statted up in the game. And btw, they aren't 60 across the board with 30 wounds and terminator armour.

Because there is ~45,000XP in each of the Career paths. At the end of a career you will have collected about 1/3rd of the possible XP advances. Inquisitors aren't going to be far ahead of that level because a Rank 8 15,000XP acolyte is approaching apprentice inquisitor level and is seven ways of badass already.

As an exercise you can try and figure out how much XP one of the sample inquisitors has by taking whatever career path is closest to them and counting it up. You'll find they have a tonne of XP, but not all of it is in their stats.

Hellebore

Hellebore said:

Quoted for truth. Ill even go a step further. You dont even have to have maxed your career path to be an Inquisitor. There is no set in stone level/rank to earn being a inquisitor as a title. Becoming an acolyte is step one. At any point after that, your inquisitor could promote you based on any number of reasons, from effeciency to experience to favoritism or just because he is trying to get the sister of battle in the sack.

Hellebore said:

Too bad I don't have DotDG. Just so you know it, I don't disagree, sure they can have some low stats as well. But my point is that they will probably be exceptional at something, just like an acolyte. And with their experience they can afford to raise their stats a bit as well.

BTW thanks for tips and inspiration guys, I'll stat me up some major NPCs some day For now they don't really need it.

IMO, any Inquisitor will have high INT and WP and probably Fel -- the things you need to be a good planner and politician. The rest doesn't matter much.

bogi_khaosa said:

Some Inquisitors aren't good planners, or politicians. Some are complete morons. Especially the ones who use "cleanse with fire" as the answer to every problem.

As someone who has both an Inquisitor (Rank 6 Psyker on the scholar path, with plenty of contacts and the Legate Investigator alternate career) and an Adeptus Astartes (using the Tyranus Conclave rules) as PCs, I think I might have about two cents to add to this discussion.

boki_khaosa nailed it down pretty darn well, an Inquisitor is someone smart and well-connected, ideally competent as a spy or knowledgeable enough in the area to coordinate those with actual talent. Those musclebound power-armour wearing guys with the Astartes Envy are at best warzone Inquisitors, and at worst a waste of the Emperor's most holy resources as their brass actions more often than not destroy more than what is necessary and less than is needed, since most heretics can easily tell when that sledgehammer is coming their way and will promptly scatter and hide.

As far as living with a Space Marine, I believe there's a balance to be had in-game that is both interesting for the players and true to the source material. In our case, the Astartes is a bodyguard for the Inquisitor and the tactical advisor for his organization. He's not a grunt seeking to add a few notches to his bolter, but a valued member of the organization's command staff and the moral heart of the group, as he's by far the most loyal and stoic. You know, kind of like having a paladin in more casual RPGs. They don't take him out to walks around the Hive, obviously, but he has a perfectly valid role to fill in. Also, his life-debt and fealty to the PC Inquisitor, as well as the Inquisition life-style in the last few years, has caused some interesting conflicts with his own crusader ethos. Let's call it character growth.

Also, I take your Nurgle and Vaul and raise Snake Ghandi. We'll see who's rejoicing now.

macd21 said:

High intelligence is not contradicted by fanaticism. It just makes you a more effective fanatic.

Xisor said:

I'd have to disagree with you on that one. While Dark Heresy certainly is marketed as an "investigation" RPG, there are far too many telltale signs that it has an obvious focus on action and combat than investigation.

A true investigation RPG would be Call of Cthulhu, where most game time is spent talking to people, rummaging through libraries in search of arcane lore etc. And combat is usually pretty quick since most stuff that the player characters face will either drive them completely bonkers just by being seen, or eat them alive while the investigators feebly tries to defend themselves with tommy guns and revolvers (which of course has no effect what so ever against the extra dimensional cosmic horror they are facing).

Then we have Dark Heresy, where more than 50 percent of all the talents are combat oriented in some way, the combat system even has pre-made tables for critical damage describing in gory detail exactly what happens when someone gets fried by a plasma gun, oh and let's not forget the fact that the first ever made expansion book released for the game consisted primarily of new guns, melee weapons and armour that the PC's could buy (with a few appendix chapters describing faith, and how it is to work for the Inquisition).

... Which is fine of course, but let's not kid ourselves here. Sure Dark Heresy was probably meant to be played as an investigation/mystery/conspiracy game from the beginning, but somewhere down the line the focus suffered a huge shift towards action oriented elements.

How much more action and violence do you really need? I mean, I've played a mechanicus secutor, armed with an assault cannon and a power fist and clad in a set of Dragonscale armour (the AdMech version of power armour), cutting down hordes of enemies (in their hundreds!) along with my fellow acolytes who were just as well armed as myself, and this was in Dark Heresy. And we've taken on ridiculously dangerous enemies, like Charnel Daemons, Tyranid Lictors, Necron Immortals and even an avatar of a C'Tan! (although the last one we weren't able to beat because he was effectively invulnerable)

We never needed any silly Deathwatch marines to play epic combats, the rules in Dark Heresy covered that aspect fully (and even a bit over the top). So my question is: why would you need a game with EVEN MORE focus on combat than Dark Heresy, when Dark Heresy cover that part more than enough? What's the point? And please, humour me with some more elaborate reasons than "we gets to run about as power armoured supermen with boltegunz and feel hypermasculine!"

Not that it is an invalid reason of course, it's just that as of now it is about the only reason I can see.

If nothing else Manahotep generated an interesting post response. Maybe that was his cunning plan all along and we ourselves are being watched?

Until now I was more interested in Rogue Traders contents for DH but now Im thinking Deathwatch will be an annoying product that I impatiently will wait for. Curses!

Necronis said:

Hey, I gotta admit that im sort of curious of it as well. Mostly because I want to see if I'll get pleasantly surprised. No one would be happier than I if FFG would manage to make the Deathwatch game sufficiently interesting, in spite of it being an RPG about Space Marines only. In fact, it would be sort of overwhelming for me, and I'd gladly eat my own hat (or some similar humiliation process) for my outspoken scepticism towards the idea if I was convinced that the final product would hold much interest as an RPG.

Let's just say that im shamefully used to being right, that I find it to be very interesting the times when im wrong. Sure it doesn't sound very modest, but then again modesty was never a forte of mine.

Varnias Tybalt said:

I can almost guarantee it will be very interesting. Reason being that the Deathwatch units are comprised of SM's from all the other existing chapters. Each Chapter has it's own feel, theories and personality quirks.

Blood Angels and Space Pups are very violence prone. And melee monsters (Also, Space Pups have a rivalry with Dark Angels, leading to honor-duels when they meet, in recognition of the fight between Lion El'Johnson and Leman Russ in the pacification of Dulan during the Horus Heresy),

Ultras can be seen as "by the book" tacticians, using interlocking fields of fire and indirect fire support,

Iron Hands have just as much of a stake in the Omnissiah as the Divine Emperor,

Dark Angels have an unspoken Chapter vow to hunt down and redeem (or destroy) the traitor members of their Chapter (while keeping the whole thing on the "down low". Additionally, Dark Angels are notorious for working poorly with =I= members, even to the point of keeping secrets from the =I=.).

Now take two or more of them and throw them into a single unit and try to make them act in a cohesive manner. The info given here is enough to fuel any number of really good and interesting roleplay experiences and I've barely scratched the surface of the various Space Marine Chapters.

For further info on some of the intrigues possible with a Deathwatch team, read here:

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Deathwatch

Illithidelderbrain said:

And they would act with all the profesionalism that Space Marines are known for, regardless of any differences in opinions. If one Astartes were to start compromising a mission due to bickering, then his honor would be severely drawn through the mud, and his home chapter would definetly know about it.

Effectively eliminating most interesting roleplaying situations...

While I agree that running (or playing in) a space marine game currently has no alure for me personally I think there is roleplay potential there.

Look at all the Space marine characters in the Black Library novels and short stories. Admittedly there are a number of faceless mobile shooting platforms but there are also a number of very interesting characters with detailed histories and complicated personalities - all of whom could be great fun to roleplay. e.g. The Deathwatch officer who takes tea while interviewing Eisenhorn.

One of my players ran a home brew "Deathwatch" game for another group and they had a great time - For a start one was a Dark Angel and another a Space Wolf - that's a case of light the blue touch paper and stand well back. Honour wise they were both standing up for the honour of their chapters - a stance that their own colleagues and officers would have applauded.

The whole issue of honour is a great one to explore in a game anyway - the honour of your unit vs the honour of your chapter vs your personal honour vs the mission objectives. That alone can lead to a wealth of conflicts and roleplay opportunities.

Varnias Tybalt said:

What you don't seem to understand is that they would most likely bicker *because* their honor was at stake. SM's of any chapter aren't known for their charity (except maybe the UM's, but that's offset by their "by-the-book" mindset. UM's can really be a hard-nose bunch). Also, I think you're dismissing the opportunity for roleplay simply because you dropped your hat in the dirt once

Illithidelderbrain said:

My hat is as clean as it has ever been. As is my vaid criticism.

The thing is that bickering would not be tolerated on missions within the deathwatch. A space marine's honor is measured by how good a warrior he is (how professional he is), and constant bickering with rival chapter members during missions that can compromise the mission in question is in now way professional. Also add to the fact that the Ordo Xenos Inquisitor will put an end to such shenanigans, and if the Deathwatch marines do not listen then their honor will be stained and their parent chapter will hear about it.

Normal acolytes on the other hand are usually not bound by the same honour, and sometimes bickering and rivalry might even be promoted, since acolytes are often needed to prove themselves worthy in the eyes of their Inquisitor. Deathwatch on the other hand are already supposed to be the best of the best. Hard core professionals at what they do, they are not obliged to prove themselves, because they are supposed to be friggin Astartes! And if they were to bicker and act in a less professional manner then it would only be frowned upon...

Varnias Tybalt said:

The different chapters have very different cultures, very different opinions on what is 'honorable', very different combat doctrines and very different opinions as to what command authority means. A Space Wolf and a Dark Angel in the same squad will probably come to blows. And if an Inquisitor tries to 'put an end to such shenanigans', some SMs won't hesitate to rip off his head and spit down his throat.

In any case, it's been hinted at that DW won't just be about SMs, but will include other powerful archetypes. Probably Inquisitors, Assassins etc. Many of whom will make 'honourabl' SMs rather uncomfortable...

macd21 said:

If that's the case, then thank goodness. More options always make for a more interesting game...

Psion said:

Though Ross has said (as I've pointed out in other threads) that both Inquisitors and Assassins will be in the Ascension book.

Of course, it's all a matter of interpretation of what he said in the podcast as to whether they'll be playable or not, but they will definately have rules for them.