MILLANDSON said:
Of course, it's all a matter of interpretation of what he said in the podcast as to whether they'll be playable or not, but they will definately have rules for them.
I'm afraid I don't follow the podcasts so this is news for me. Thank you.
Varnias Tybalt said:
Illithidelderbrain said:
What you don't seem to understand is that they would most likely bicker *because* their honor was at stake. SM's of any chapter aren't known for their charity (except maybe the UM's, but that's offset by their "by-the-book" mindset. UM's can really be a hard-nose bunch). Also, I think you're dismissing the opportunity for roleplay simply because you dropped your hat in the dirt once 
My hat is as clean as it has ever been. As is my vaid criticism.
The thing is that bickering would not be tolerated on missions within the deathwatch. A space marine's honor is measured by how good a warrior he is (how professional he is), and constant bickering with rival chapter members during missions that can compromise the mission in question is in now way professional. Also add to the fact that the Ordo Xenos Inquisitor will put an end to such shenanigans, and if the Deathwatch marines do not listen then their honor will be stained and their parent chapter will hear about it.
Normal acolytes on the other hand are usually not bound by the same honour, and sometimes bickering and rivalry might even be promoted, since acolytes are often needed to prove themselves worthy in the eyes of their Inquisitor. Deathwatch on the other hand are already supposed to be the best of the best. Hard core professionals at what they do, they are not obliged to prove themselves, because they are supposed to be friggin Astartes! And if they were to bicker and act in a less professional manner then it would only be frowned upon...
Your criticism seems to stem from the fact that you've already decided what the game will be like. You've also decided how the SM's will act within the DW and you wont even allow for the possibility that it might be otherwise. Instead of giving credit where due, you've decided to dismiss the research I've done into the DW and also providing you with links describing the canon chapters of SM's and how they operate; and instead said "well, they'll act *this* way" and not allow for the fact that even though SM's have been genetically altered to give them overwhelming odds of survival in a fight, they are still human (especially at heart). The Horus Heresy should've shown you that.
And in regards to your hat, hopefully you'll need a few ketchup packets with it.
Illithidelderbrain said:
Varnias Tybalt said:
And in regards to your hat, hopefully you'll need a few ketchup packets with it.
you might try mustard its quite good.
but yes SM's are incredibly human at heart and they are honestly the most human humans can be since they are (mostly) purely honest. look at the SM in Purge the unclean i mean yes he was a beast a combat but i mean look at what he did he was completely prepared to die just to save a bunch of whiney wet behind the ears alcolytes...can you honestly say that your alcolytes would even try such a thing?
SM's are just a different type to roleplay you do know that their genetics are altered to increase the intelligence incredibly? they learn about nearly everything except philosophy...actualy i think they might learn that to they just dont apply it to anything that remotely deals with the Emperor.
i for one would love to deal with DW because i want to play a marine that falls to chaos slowly challenging his beliefs with the thing that he sees in his chapter eventually just giving up and putting a bloter to it all
Illithidelderbrain said:
Your criticism seems to stem from the fact that you've already decided what the game will be like. You've also decided how the SM's will act within the DW and you wont even allow for the possibility that it might be otherwise. Instead of giving credit where due, you've decided to dismiss the research I've done into the DW and also providing you with links describing the canon chapters of SM's and how they operate; and instead said "well, they'll act *this* way" and not allow for the fact that even though SM's have been genetically altered to give them overwhelming odds of survival in a fight, they are still human (especially at heart). The Horus Heresy should've shown you that.
And in regards to your hat, hopefully you'll need a few ketchup packets with it.
No no no. I haven't decided what the game will be like, but I have decided what my primary concerns over what the game certainly COULD be like. (there is quite a difference which im sure you can see).
And this opinion is based upon what I know about Space Marines and the Deathwatch in general (im quite sure you and I have read pretty much the same sources you have, as I have a few years on my neck as a wargamer, meaning lot's of consuming Codex books and White Dwarf articles, along with Black Library novels and everything you could think of). This naturally brings some scepticism towards the entire idea, meaning that I don't believe in it. But when all is said and done and Deathwatch gets released (I certainly don't believe that FFG would change their plans because of me speaking out against it, although I dearly hope that someone takes my points into consideration and try to work around the issues I've brought up) I might be pleasantly surprised. I can't predict the future, even if I might be able to judge what ideas are good/interesting and which aren't.
And while I'll admit that I like being right regarding most things, I like getting pleasantly surprised even better. So if the game is made then I certainly hope that I'll be wrong about it and it provs to be just as entertaining and interesting as Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader. You know what I mean? 
Also regarding Horus Heresy, I can't really say that I found the Space Marine characters being very human. Most of them seemed to be more like card board cut-out macho stereotypes with a few anger issues, but that might be because of the writing rather than actual fact. The best one in the series I've read so far was Fulgrim: Visions of Treachery where you were more able to connect with some of the Space Marine characters in contrast with the other books in the series. But if I were to argument for how "complex and human even Space Marines can be" then I personally wouldn't use the brunt of the Horus Heresy series when illustrating this, but that's just me.
Space Marines fill the niche of "Angels of Death" quite good, but angels are not humans, or very human for that matter. Which in my opinion makes them excellent as NPC's because they carry some sort of mystery. You know, if I really saw an Astartes, I would immediately think "I wonder what he/it is thinking about right now, because it surely couldn't be so mundane and human as my thoughts are". But that mystery would sort of vanish if I played a gamewhere Astartes are being played by normal people.
ThenDoctor said:
but yes SM's are incredibly human at heart and they are honestly the most human humans can be since they are (mostly) purely honest. look at the SM in Purge the unclean i mean yes he was a beast a combat but i mean look at what he did he was completely prepared to die just to save a bunch of whiney wet behind the ears alcolytes...can you honestly say that your alcolytes would even try such a thing?
Call me a pessimist mistanthrope if you will (because the label would actually be quite fitting on some levels, honest). But being willing to die for a few people that are in your eyes inferior to you and that you have just met does not strike me as being very "human" behavior.
The standard, run-o-the-mill human would more likely say: "F**k it. Better them than me. I'll just lie to the Inquisitor when I get back." and then shoot one of the "new guys" in the leg, hoping that the monsters will stop and eat him while the other human run like hell.
Just sayin'...
well i like to believe that there is some honor left in the 40k universe thats why i like the SM they are honest and honorable mostly
ThenDoctor said:
well i like to believe that there is some honor left in the 40k universe thats why i like the SM they are honest and honorable mostly
Oh yes, Space Marines probably have plenty of honor, and they probably live by it as well. But does honor make them "human" in behavior? Not even the samurai of Japan followed their laws of honor by the book (and remember that their society was pretty strict about their codes of honor). There are several historical accounts where samurai disobeyed and disregarded their honor. And why is that? Well, because they are human. And honor doesn't always play along with human impulses. That's why you have best friends sleeping with their best friends wife/husband, that is why you have cheating wives/husbands, that is why opportunity can make a thief of even the most law abiding citizen, that is why sucker-punches are common practice in human fist fights, that is why soldiers flee from battle when their honor state that they should stand and fight. etc. etc.
Honor is a cultural ideal, but far from every human being actually lives up to all the ideals the culture has. That is pretty solid evidence for honor not being a very "human" behavior don't you agree? Sure it might be human to talk about honor and present yourself as honorable, but actually living up to it mostly requires beyond human strength. Something that Astartes would be perfectly able to live up to, since they have been genetically engineered to do it, while only a few individuals of normal humans could do the same thing (since the power of any individual varies from others).
Varnias Tybalt said:
Oh yes, Space Marines probably have plenty of honor, and they probably live by it as well. But does honor make them "human" in behavior? Not even the samurai of Japan followed their laws of honor by the book (and remember that their society was pretty strict about their codes of honor). There are several historical accounts where samurai disobeyed and disregarded their honor. And why is that? Well, because they are human. And honor doesn't always play along with human impulses. That's why you have best friends sleeping with their best friends wife/husband, that is why you have cheating wives/husbands, that is why opportunity can make a thief of even the most law abiding citizen, that is why sucker-punches are common practice in human fist fights, that is why soldiers flee from battle when their honor state that they should stand and fight. etc. etc.
Honor is a cultural ideal, but far from every human being actually lives up to all the ideals the culture has. That is pretty solid evidence for honor not being a very "human" behavior don't you agree? Sure it might be human to talk about honor and present yourself as honorable, but actually living up to it mostly requires beyond human strength. Something that Astartes would be perfectly able to live up to, since they have been genetically engineered to do it, while only a few individuals of normal humans could do the same thing (since the power of any individual varies from others).
See: Horus Heresy.
It's true - Marines aren't normal humans. They are normal humans who have been given the powers of gods. That can make them heroes - or it can make them arrogant, monstrous tyrants. And some people like roleplaying such characters. It isn't about Munchkism, it's about telling epic stories on an epic scale.
VT-
As an aside, I believe it is more in the way that they fail that we can see their innate humanity than in the way they walk down a hallway or assault a breach. The motivating factors for their failures are those indicators of humanity, with all its irrationality, pride, and wrath, sorrow, shame, and even joy. I call them human not because of what they inspire in their fellow humans, but in the way that they feel in the same manner of humanity, and even more, that they are subject to the same frailties as their less augmented counterparts.
And yes, Fulgrim was one of my favorite HH paperbacks. Blood Angels was a favored Omnibus (going to be tackling the Grey Knights Omnibus in a few),
P.S. You are a pessimist misanthrope 
Illithidelderbrain said:
P.S. You are a pessimist misanthrope
I know. But a quite housetrained and cheerful pessimist misanthrope.
Being a gloomy goth/pseudo-emo misanthrope is just too much of a cliché to be bearable. That's why im a smiling and cheerful misanthrope instead, and sometimes this can really throw people off. Don't ask me why though, I mean is it really that odd to have a depressing and antagonistic view towards mankind but at the same time be happy and cheerful about it?
Perhaps im just mad, but then again only the insane shall prosper, am I right?