Why only have black/white raven can make the season change?

It seems really bad that a deck only 3 card to change~~

But so many cards need winter or summer to use~~

There is a plot that can search for a Raven, A Time for Ravens. Theoretically, with this plot, you only need one Raven in your entire deck... of course, if your opponent disagrees with your seasonal selection, having more Ravens can only help.

herotam999 said:

yeah, i've been saying this since the seasons cycle began :-) i agree fully that the seasons concept was rather poorly conceived; a so easily changed, trinary game state on which so, so many now-printed cards rely really detracts from the game imo, and i still look at the ravens cycle as a huge waste

I think pointing the existence of the A Time for Ravens plot should clear up the "only 3 cards" complaint.

Judging by some of the cards in the King's Landing expansion, Summer/Winter is not confined to the A Time of Ravens expansion. I think the seasons concept is pretty cool in theory, but I agree that it's not that much fun in practice, for me at least. I'm more of a conservative player and I don't like swingy mechanics. A lot of the seasonal cards get a big boost for the appropriate season but are actively bad in the wrong season. I prefer cards that just solid all of the time.

Summer Tax

Theon Greyjoy.

Sam and the Ravens...

Then there are some cards that are OK without the season. If Learned Crest support returned, a number of Targ summer cards would increase in utility beyond thier summer effect. Gilly is good as long as it's not winter (she's 0 cost... claim soak if it aint summer).

finitesquarewell said:

Easily changed? Seriously? The immunity to non-Raven cards seems to do a very good job of limiting the possibilities (to two cards...). The only time I have ever been particularly hard pressed to keep it the season I want it to be is when I am playing against a deck that wants it to be the opposite season.

ktom said:

in the now ~billions of games the DC crew has played with lanni/focused kneel, we've found that it's just very, very easy to keep the opponent's season off the table with carrion birds, to the extent where if we're agreed that lanni kneel is all around the best deck in the environment, then any seasons-based deck short of targ/summer or perhaps greyjoy/winter/control with lots of cancel/standing will be inconsistent at best . ~just ask any of my kingsmoot opponents who were playing summer ;-)

Playing Targaryen, I find it ok.

Well having Lady Daenerys Chambers x3 helps a lot of course, but even without this card seasons are playable.

At first I didn't like that at all, like it has been said I like to rely on cards that does not vary depending on 1 card in play. But playing Targ Summer feels good as my deck is quite expensive and it adds me one card to draw per turn (with the Agenda), which is great.

Besides there are many great summer cards for us (Red Warlock, Kraz no makloz…).

If you discard my black raven I put it back next turn with LDC. If you Carrion bird annoys me, it burns. Simple ^^

Including Carrion birds even when not playing a season seems like a good idea but I'm not sure it will prevent Stark/Greyjoy players to play Winter efficiently. It will annoys them at best.

So, when there will be more deckbuilding and Agenda possibilities, I think there will be less "seasons war" (summer vs winter) so it will be easier to keep one season for the game.

finitesquarewell said:

I suppose that around here, we just haven't had as much trouble killing the Carrion Birds, stopping the opponent from winning the military challenge or leveraging multiple copies of the attachment.

I think the way they handled the seasons was fine. Some of the season specific cards are almost Doomed in their power - and there should be a drawback to using them. the Ravens - being vulnerable to probably only six cards in your opponents deck are strong enough the way they are, but can be disposed of if your opponent is willing to work a little to pull it off.

I don't agree with FSW that its THAT easy to knock off ravens - i don't think i lost a Raven once all afternoon and I faced two Lanni kneel decks, including one from DC. But i do conced thta there is enough of a risk to it that I won't run the summer agenda any longer (and I didn't at the Moot). The drawback of losing draw is just too crippling for an effect that can be countered with just a little work.

In short - i think the mechanic is nicely balanced and one of the more engaging developments we have seen for teh game in a while. i like it much more than i like Shadows.

Stag Lord said:

I agree with this. If shadows wasn't so much better for one house right now, and if i could more consistiently remember when i have cards in shadows, i'd be okay with shadows

While i have no opinion on the ease of removing the black or white raven (i don't find myself trying a whole lot, maybe a sign of the 'power' of the season) i will agree that lanni has the easiest time with a seasons deck. In my lanni deck plot #7 is the one that turns off the season for one turn. This lets me 'blank' all the season effects if there are too many for me to control and then buys me a turn of draw/kneel/kill to be abel to get the seasonal stuff back under control.

With location control back, the threat of winter (for summer agenda), the ease of getting around the winter agenda (if you really feel you have to), and milk/motley/fishing net, there isn't a whole lot of season effects that scare me anymore.

Stag Lord said:

Well we don't have as much experience playing with the ravens; but, my impressions:

1) Love the concept of the Seasons as a mechanic

2) Hate the way it's been implemented.

Making the black & white raven attachments immune to non-raven cards was a huge mistake IMO. That means that if you're not running them/carrion bird, you're basically screwed/no way to impede the opponent, and it's almost like the opponent is playing a different game. Reminds me a bit of the doomed mechanic from Winter in that way, & is like FFG didn't learn their lesson. Any attachment removal should work, IMO. The 'silver bullet' removal/immunity is very limiting/constricting of play styles.

Granted, we don't play LCG only decks. So maybe the problem isn't that bad in the LCG environment. However, unless this is to be a permanent mechanic, this WILL become a problem as more cards & newer mechanics are added to the LCG environment - as people will want to try other decks, & not have room for the ravens.

LordofBrewtown said:

I can't believe I'm making this point to the LOB, but one of the things I always appreciated about the immunity to non-Raven cards on the Black/White Ravens was that I found it so thematic. When the seasons change in Westeros, there is very little anyone can do but live with it.

The issue I will bring up in relation to the "there's no way to impede the opponent" thought is that all the character control, etc. still works on the cards that take advantage of the season. It's not like the Doomed mechanic in that Doomed was supposed to be a drawback that never quite materialized because the person playing Doomed had more control over it than their opponent. "Only on during season X" or "Screwed by season Y" are not really used as balances to the power of these cards any more than needing a Lord in play is really a balance to the cost/STR ratio of Shaggydog. The power level on your average season-dependent card is not really comparable to the power level on your average Doomed card. Anyway, to me, saying "if your opponent is playing a season, there's no way to deal with it short of Carrion Bird" is like saying "if your opponent is playing high gold plots, there's no way to deal with it short of Blockade."

fabest said:

BTW isn't it illegal?

It's in discard pile (not in play), so immunity doesn't work. Never mind