Hooking new players

By CX0427, in Tide of Iron

Jazzist said:

I'm not interested in a game that aims for total realism, that's why i bought TOI. The plateau rule caught my attention because it's not just a simplification such as having different types of roads allowing the same speed or different woods providing the same cover. It's an element of unrealism "actively" introduced to the game, and since I didn't see the usefulness of the rule, this bothered me.

On the topic of this thread, I played the scenario Liberation yesterday. I played the germans and the americans beat the crap out of me. By the end of the third round, I had only one squad left. Both of us made sensible choices and neither of us got exceptionally lucky rolling the dice, and we even forgot about the "merciless assault" operations card for the entire game, so the feeling we both had was that this scenario is very unbalanced.

I agree totally with Gamer4Life in this discussion, and I welcome further discussions on how to implement some degree of balance to the scenarios. I don't care about historical accuracy or about what FFG intended. I want a fairly easy tactical wargame where equally skilled opponents can have about equal chances of winning, and I'm certain that TOI can be that game for me.

I suppose every game has its quirks, the plateau rule certainly being one of them in TOI. I usually don't make much effort to seek out any level of realisim in a game, personally I usually shoot for a balanced and challenging game that offers up some customization and for those real Gems dynamic mechanics that change from game to game. The last one their, Dynamic mechanics are rare in board games, they usually only end up in card games but thats kind of what I like about TOI as their is some dynamic in the fact that cards are used in the game.

In any case, ya I mean the whole scenario discussion is really a matter of preference and opinion. I don't think longagoigo had any oppossition to changes and adjustments (I think he spoke quite highly of the games adaptability), but what I think he was saying is that the scenarios are more like examples of what a scenario can be and adjustments to make a scenario are impossible to some degree because their are so many variables involved with the players themselves (aka skill level, experiance with the mechanics, experiance with board games). What might be unbalanced for one group may be totaly screwed up for another. I can understand that and I concluded that my version of balanced assumes that players are of equal skill and equal experiance, in which case it can be arguably said that the scenarios that come with the book are not balanced (note I said arguably, not trying to rehash it here).

I haven't played Liberation yet so I can't say much about it, but judging from experiance it does sound quite off. I will have to check that one out.

I've been following this debate over the past few days and found the exchange interesting and informative on several different levels. Originally about scenario balance and attracting new players, it ranged out across several subjects. Both points of view have been well argued and supported. I tend to agree more with Gamer4life (G4L) due to this being a hobby game as opposed to a professional wargame. As a hobby game, the original scenarios should have been more oriented towards balance. That said, the strength of ToI and its system is the ability to be both a hobby game and an instructional tool, even at a professional/serious level. I'm not saying that it could be used to validate modern strategy/tactics, but it could be used at an instructional level within a "Strategy and Policy" class to highlight the contexts of historical warfare (regardless the age/genre) strategies that flowed from policy decisions. Herein is one level of support for longagoigo's argument, in that not all historical battles were balanced and that serious gamers will be drawn to such. FFG did well by supporting the game on line via new scenarios and hit a home run with the Designer Series book. The Designer series has some incredible examples of imaginative and balanced scenarios that use the tools of the game as designed by the 50 lb brains of the wargaming world.

A couple of other subjects of interest: Dynamic game system...great point made G4L. This has been a real interest of mine for a while. How to model "game changing" events that fundamentally add a new dimension to the game, during the game. AH changed the game world with "We the People" and ToI uses cards effectively for this purpose and for the customization of scenarios.

Illogical rules: Look under M10 suppression rule (Normandy expansion). This rule seems like an afterthought added at the last moment to differentiate the M10 (open topped TD) from true tanks. Disregards the fact that there are other open topped vehicles in the game that do not get suppressed. Longagoigo has pointed out that specific rules trump general rules and to a point I agree, however, there should also be internal, systemic logic to a specific rule. Was the M10 rule playtested thoroughly? I wonder.

A reference was made during one posting describing ToI as a new game system. I think it was James Dunnigan who said something about using good ideas to build new games (paraphrased). Anyone play "Epic Armaggedon"? Not to detract from ToI...this type of system is amazingly expandable to other eras and genres and FFG has done a great job of developing and publishing a game that introduces a new generation of gamers to a remarkable time in history. It can be as playable as you want or as historical as you wish to simulate.

Actually, I was referring to James Dunnigan's 2nd rule of wargame design: plagiarize.