I'm fine with 1 'expansion' per year. As others have said, too many takes away from the whole LCG concept.

Ideally, what separates an 'expansion' from a normal chapter pack, is that it includes 7 plots, & multiples of certain cards (maybe a new resource location, or some nuetral location or attachment removal/nuetering or draw that is fairly expensive compared to existing or in house options), and the deck would be playable (though wouldn't have to be competetive - so each house could still get 1-2 house specific cards that could be pulled out or pay gold penalty for, along with nuetrals & 1-2 dual-house cards).

While I'd like to see Tyrell, Arryn, and Tully be their own houses, if they are not, they, along with sub-houses or other themes (tourny of the hand?) are good fodder for the expansions.

I personally am not a fan of most of the extras we've seen so far (game board, title 'figurines', cardboard counters in core set & resin house card in Greyjoy). However, since FFG seems intent on adding something 'special' to these - I'd suggest card sleeves (Tyrell House if they are a future expansion, or other featured artwork), or a playmat that depicts a map of Westeros.

Good to hear that the GJ box isn't as large as the Core Set, btw. The promo shots that we saw made it seem otherwise.

I'd certainly agree with everyone saying that the "minor houses" would make great expansion boxes, as well as those saying that two decks in a box would be just about the prime card count for the $30 price. As far as extra "fiddly" bits go, I quite like the house cards, but I feel they might be better in a seperate product. In something like the expansion that we're going to likely be buying multiple copies of, something "consumable" makes more sense to me. To explain, over time, counters get lost or worn, so having extra copies of the Core Set Gold Dragon power counters and coins does not rub me the wrong way. Likewise, as you play the game card sleeves become worn, stick together, have edges split, etc. so getting multiple packs of them would not bother me. Or even some type of deck case like the old card coffins could have an easy use for multiple copies.

Since, I love the look of the resin house card though, perhaps it could be spun off into a seperate product? Much like L5R offered "Clan Loyalist" packs with an assortment of exclusive cards specifically for each house, perhaps AGOT could offer "House Loyalist" packs that came with a resin house card and say... 3 copies of a new version of a key house character? Or some other small assortment of cards that would provide an easy playset with a single purchase.

Another expansion idea that occurs to me though, is something I've kicked around for awhile and might have mentioned before in relation to OP kits, would be some kind of campaign box. Would people be interested in seeing "broken" decks make a comeback ala the Wildling Horde and Circle of Spies? Ok, well, something a bit different actually. Much like the latest raid deck for the WoW TCG included a mix of non-legal broken cards and legal cards, a Campaign box might set up a deck with some alternate tournament or league structure to really help the players tell or experience a part of the ASOIAF story (or an alternate history).

Personally I don't think FFG will be doing two or three larger expansions (of 120 cards, in addition to the chapter packs - the playtesting factor etc.), but I don't think doing something once a year is out of the question. Also I'm not sure if FFG would be thrilled of the idea of selling the core-set decks in pairs or singles... While adding to the flexibility of starting the game it might cause unwanted confusion of what to choose, in addition to cutting into the sales of the core set. I get the feeling that with the LCG they want to keep it more clear cut, with a definite basic game and clearly cut expansions to that. So while these ideas would be fantastic, I'm not sure if we'll get these... Of course, one can always hope... and I might just be a bit of a pessimist.

A more reasonable (imho) expectation would be one larger boxed expansion a year, with something around 70-100 cards. And since this is an expansion, I don't think FFG would have to make it so that it has some kind of playable-out-of-the-box decks, but rather expand on some part of the game. For instance the Night's Watch & Wildling idea could be done, by having a set of neutral night's watch/wildling cards (say half or one third of the expansion), plus some cards for each house, that fit into the theme, and combo with the neutrals. Oh, and some kind of Agendas connected to this theme. In addition they could add a set of Others plots (we already have one, so why not more?), and possibly some kind of game-variant (Battle for the Wall?). This way it would be an expansion to the core-game, which clearly adds a set of self-contained new elements to the game, with a clear theme. Hell, they could even add a small mammoth plush doll for those that like the kings of the sea house-card.

As has been previously noted, another possibility of theme choice would be some of the other smaller factions, which have a few cards in the core set. Boltons, Tyrells, Dothraki... In a way I think expansions like this would be a good idea, and sort of logical, since the core set seems to hint at such expansions by having just a few of a certain factions characters. By playing the core-set you sort of easily get the feeling that: "Wow, it would be so cool to have lots of these [insert small faction] guys, they seem totally awesome", and the expansions would offer them.

I've read all ideas and want to ask:

What's wrong with chapter packs?

Why do you want bigger box and thus bigger price?

Even Martell pack could be done in a form of chapter packs (2 or more). Of course FFG prefer to make it in a form of starter deck, because of marketing, but theoreticaly it still can be achieved.

What's wrong with Night's Watch or Wildling or "anything" chapter packs?

And premium card packs or "plastic sun pack" cards? No thanks, that's not the idea of LCG.

Rogue30 said:

My impression is that people don't want to wait through 6 months to get all the cards for a theme. I agree that "reintroducing" Night's Watch, Wildling, etc. through chapter packs is the way to go. I do think, though, that Martell as a House should be reintroduced through a special product or deck like an expansion. Part of the goal is to have a playable deck like the 4 in the Core Set and I don't think that could be done well with chapter packs. And anyway, I don't think I'd feel good about buying a chapter pack full of basic resources for a single House.

I think this has been some good discussion, thanks for the input! Hopefully FFG reads it and weighs it accordingly.

For those of you that are thinking the expansions are a "one time" thing, and will end after the Princes of the Sun, I happy to inform you that money rules, and there will be more IMO. I wish I had insight to sales figures, but my local store can't get enough of the Greyjoy expansions in stock. The first day they got them in stock they limited them to one per customer, and they've been told by their supplier that the supplier has run out and may not get more for a week or more. So they've already been telling players that when they get their second shipment in Thursday, there still may not be enough for everyone to get three.

While I'm not naive enough to think they are selling this hot everywhere, the point is that if FFG has good sales, they will not abandon a successful model. There will be more expansions. And personally, I truly hope this is so, because two Chapter pack cycles per year is just not enough cards for me. I can definitely buy the argument some are making that three expansions per year at 120 cards each is too much. But I absolutely want to see more cards put into the card pool than just two sets of chapter packs.

Don't forget that we express opinions only from a player side, what would be convenient to us. But the business side is important too so what we think to be a good idea can be a bad one for FFG.

If KotS is selling well, as you say, there's no reason for them to modify the next extensions. Most players seem very happy with KotS, only a few complained (myself included).

Well, they already said they were going to make some changes to Princes of the Sun because of player feedback on KotS.

Unless FFG decides to surpise us (and the LCG model is certainly new enough that innovation abounds), I don't think we'll see more than a single "box expansion" a year after this, it's two clunky and time/art intensive in development, I would think. And doesn't really fit the group they're selling to. Kings & Princes fills a void, and after that, I think Kennon's ideas for a Campaign Deck or House Loyalist Pack are a very cool possibility as a means of offer "premiums" while not stopping too far away from teh Chapter Pack system that is the bridge between previous CCG players, and making a expandable, customizable game palatable to a boardgamer.

I think the bigger question is if/when/how will we see a Core Set 2.0. Will they try to make it more like the Cthulhu starter with multiple "neutral packs" and 6 smaller lumps of house cards you can add to make any of 6 decks? Are they assuming the Core Set will sell out (much like their other base games) and they'll need reprints? Multiple languages "complicate" this in that they have to balance the needs of various partner companies in different countries and their inventory levels. Will it just be an uber-box reprint that folds in Kings/Princes so it continues as the ideal "start point" without necessitating large outlays from your continuing players?

I'll be interested to see what themes are going to be explored in futured chapter packs. Clash Of Arms & Time Of Ravens both started as expansions to the 5Kings base set. Has Nate alluded to where the initial inspiration for Kings Landing came from? Was it pre- or post- the decision to move to LCG?

I had a couple interesting thoughts for chapter pack sequences... One could be Night's Watch themed... "Up the Lonely Kings Road," (ties in the other houses) "In Training," "Taking the Vows," "The Watch Rides Out," "Scouting the Milkwater," "The Watch Betrayed," "The Wall Must be Held," "Castle Black Remains," and/or 'Mole Town Diaries." I'm not sure I can agree with the compaintant who said the NW agenda was boring, since I enjoyed it so much, and it gave them a better thematic and mechanical integrity, with balanced pros/cons (Can't lose the icons if you don't have/need 'em, screwed by things like the Hidden Poison cycle), and that was a significant improvement on the Castle Black promo location, which was essentially a much more vulnerable version of the Summer/Winter mechanic. "You have the location, great. Oh, I blowed it up, sorry, you're screwed." You could get really thematic with event names, heavy on uniques in the 1x slot (Heck, we've never had a 2nd version of Castle Black).

Just some random thoughts... I need to do some more research before i present my other idea.

Assuming that there will be a Core Set v.2 There is no reason not to include two expansions a year. I most definitely don't want to see minor houses brought into the LCG by way of expansions. That is what the Chapter Pack cycle is for IMO. You could have Clansmen and Arryn's as neutrals exploring their conflict over the length of the cycle, keeping them mostly neutral, while still getting two house specific cards for every pack which while not related to the immediate conflict could still provide synergy with the House themes and those factions focused in the CP.

I'd expect that the CS v2 would likely include the same four houses, though it would be nice to mix them up a little.

Unless FFG decides to surpise us (and the LCG model is certainly new enough that innovation abounds), I don't think we'll see more than a single "box exapnsion" a year after this, it's two clunky and time/art intensive in development, I would think. And doesn't really fit the group their selling two. Kings & Princes fills a void, and after that, I think Kennon's ideas for a Campaign Deck or House Loyalist Pack are a very cool possibility as a means of offer "premiums" while not stopping too far away from teh Chapter Pack system that is the bridge between previous CCG players, and making a expandable, customizable game palatable to a boardgamer.

I think the bigger question is if/when/how will we see a Core Set 2.0. Will they try to make it more like the Cthulhu starter with multiple "neutral packs" and 6 smaller lumps of house cards you can add to make any of 6 decks? Are they assuming the Core Set will sell out (much like their other base games) and they'll need reprints? Multiple languages "complicate" this in that they have to balance the needs of various partner companies in different countries and their inventory levels. Will it just be an uber-box reprint that folds in Kings/Princes so it continues as the ideal "start point" without necessitating large outlays from your continuing players?

I'll be interested to see what themes are going to be explored in futured chapter packs. Clash Of Arms & Time Of Ravens both started as expansions to the 5Kings base set. Has Nate alluded to where the initial inspiration for Kings Landing came from? Was it pre- or post- the decision to move to LCG?

I had a couple interesting thoughts for chapter pack sequences... One could be Night's Watch themed... "Up the Lonely Kings Road," (ties in the other houses) "In Training," "Taking the Vows," "The Watch Rides Out," "Scouting the Milkwater," "The Watch Betrayed," "The Wall Must be Held," "Castle Black Remains," and/or 'Mole Town Diaries." I'm not sure I can agree with the compaintant who said the NW agenda was boring, since I enjoyed it so much, and it gave them a better thematic and mechanical integrity, with balanced pros/cons (Can't lose the icons if you don't have/need 'em, screwed by things like the Hidden Poison cycle), and that was a significant improvement on the Castle Black promo location, which was essentially a much more vulnerable version of the Summer/Winter mechanic. "You have the location, great. Oh, I blowed it up, sorry, you're screwed." You could get really thematic with event names, heavy on uniques in the 1x slot (Heck, we've never had a 2nd version of Castle Black).

Just some random thoughts... I need to do some more research before i present my other idea.

Just to answer Luke's question --

"KLE was the first cycle designed and developed entirely for the LCG, and it has a number of exciting features. "

"The King’s Landing edition and its central “Shadows” mechanic were initially conceived about 2 years ago. I wanted to do a set based on one of the powerful settings that George R.R. Martin has created for his world, and explore that setting from a number of different angles in the card game."

Those are from a couple of the articles on the minisite ("State of the Game" and "Into the Shadows").

Dobbler said:

That's not because of model. Just everyone wants Greyjoys.

The reason they made House Arryn neutral originaly was because they felt support for a seventh house in a ccg would dilute the cards for the other houses.

The way I see it... if you wanted to remove the cruft... adding Arryn and as a seperate faction with an agenda similar to the Martel/Greyjoy ones would make sense... if not in an expansion dedicate a chapter pack to each. Put in some dual house arryn cards, but otherwise keep it as a self contained product for those who want to play with a minor house.

I'll give an example:

1x Lysa Arryn (Arryn)

1x Alyne Stone (Arryn/Stark)

1x Blackfish (Arryn/Stark)

1x Nestor Royce (Arryn)

1x Littlefinger (Lannister/Arryn)

1x Robert Arryn (Arryn)

1x Mord (Lannister/Arryn)

1x Bronze Yohn Royce (Arryn)

1x Fury of the Eagle (?) (arryn, 5/7/1 screws over clansmen).

1x Treaty of the Vale (Arryn agenda)

3x The Eyrie (House Arryn +3 Gold +2 Influence, can search for it in lieu of setup)

3x The Bloody Gate

3x Vale Fiefdoms (arryn)

3x As High as Honor (Arryn related event, not house only).

Then 6 3x cards that are Arryn/House something. Maybe give them each a new Arryn themed keyword... i would say "Standfast: Intimidate while defending". So a cycle for the other houses, but also gives Arryn a narrow theme.

That Arryn stuff is not bad.

I also like this stuff, my 2 cents:

bloodycelt said:

And Lannister since they have in house clansmen. For nedly reasons i'd say Targ, but they don't need another ancient enemy. Maybe something like win a Military challenge then kneel a character and that character doesn't stand in this round's standing phase (i.e. it got stuck in the snow)

bloodycelt said:

I don't think these should be like treaty of the isle, more like the Kingsguard agenda (after all if your treating w/ the vale its to hide and protect yourself).

Or if its like treaty of the isle it should be "If your opponet has 4 Clansmen characters in play they need 5 less power to win the game."

bloodycelt said:

Well, this is either going to cost a lot or we are going to need some other +2 Influence locations first. maybe 2 Gold for +2 gold and +1 influence straight up.

bloodycelt said:

"After you win a challenge as the defender kneel 2 Influence to claim a power."

bloodycelt said:

I'd like an Intimidate on defense. I'd also like something along the lines of Standfast "does not kneel to defend, but can only be declared as a defender in one challenge" which is a bit wordy, but something like that.

As High as Honor should actually be: To Be An Falcon. (I think it's actualy a falcon not an eagle, so rename other cards as well).

Stand an Arryn character to remove an attacking character from the challenge.

Bloody Gate should read: At the end of a challenge the losing player must kill all of thier participating characters.

I think Fury of the Falcon would be: Power Struggle: After you win a power challenge choose and kill a clansmen character cannot be saved.

Fury of the Moon (the clansmen one): Military Battle: After you win a miltary challenge with a clansmen, choose and discard a house Arryn location (cannot be saved).

I really think having something like Steadfast.

While a character with the “Steadfast” keyword
is defending, characters with a lower STR than
that character do not count their STR for that
challenge

The Blackfish should have: house tully characters don't kneel to defend (which extends to himself... and gives Stark players some boost).

Intimidate on defense seems waaaay to strong, just imagine you would play against a deck with 20 or so Catelyn CS Spin offs. Also it would stall the whole game in my opinion. I like the other suggestions for House Arryn, looks pretty cool. ~When will the set be in stores? ;-)

In general i think agendas are the way to go, to release cards and keep a well balanced deck. The shadow agenda was already a step in the right direction, however i think that the 5KE agendas where the best balanced agendas (if only the 5KE rare locations wouldn´t have been that rare).

So my sugggestion is that some (not all) of the future theme cards should be bound to an agenda. Example:

-Agenda: The brotherhood.

Brotherhood charachters have STR+1. You may play Lady Stoneheart from your dead or discard pile, while you control at least two brotherhood charachters.You may not run locations in your deck except those with a (gold symbol), (influence symbol), (initiative symbol) or the brotherhood trait.

- Lady Stoneheart. cost: 3g. I/P icon. STR 3. Agenda The Brotherhood only. Brotherhood . Deadly. Challenges discard Lady Stoneheart to kill a non (Stark) charachter.

- Beric Dondarrion. cost: 4g. M/I/P icon. STR 3. Agenda Brotherhood only. Brotherhood . Response: after you win a challenge by 4 or more total STR, put Beric Dondarrion into play from your dead pile. Any phase: Kneel the brotherhood to choose a brotherhood charachter. That charachters gets +2 STR and deadly until end of turn.

- Thoros of Myr. cost: 2g. M/P icon. STR 2.Agenda The Brotherhood only. Brotherhood . No attachments except weapon. Any phase: Kneel a weapon attached to Thoros of Myr to give a charachter -3 STR until end of the turn (limit once per round).

I dunno - intimidate on defense might not be too bad. How many characters are around for defnese anyway? Kneel/burn/stealth/deadly/STEAL/kill....I think it wouldn't be that bad. Arryn was always the House of defnese and this would be pretty neat.

I could see either bloodycelt's suggestion or maybe a whole slew of characters who rmeoved other characters form teh challenge - lords, noble crests, war crests creatures etc. Somehting like that might be pretty interesting

I would just like to see a Legacy pack once a year with core reprints. We could get a ton of mileage out of that.

longclaw said:

QFT. Give me 12 chapter packs and a legacy pack with reprints from 2002-2007 and that would keep me going indefintely with this ssstem.

Stag Lord said:

Even if the Legacy Pack followed the same system as the CPs - 10x3 and 10x1 for 40 total cards?

Mmmmm...not sure.

i probably wouldn't buy it tehn - God knows i have enough commons and uncommons form the earlier sets to wall paper a room. I'd be exicted that they would eb legal again though.

OTOH: certain staples like Milk and Paper shield, I could never get enough of and I though mulitple copies of the LP to get extras. I don't know - rigth now I probably wouldn't but more than one ot support the FLGS, but I'd reserve judgement until I saw what those 10x3 were.

Say it was;

Bastard/Market Street/Narrow Escape/Fire From the Sky/and one cool Hosue reprint x 3 - i'd be tempted to pick up a couple of packs. I'd be really tempted.

I just throw it out there because the word is that the game is picking up a bunch of new players, even if they'll never see (or want to see) the inside of a competitive gaming hall. Those people don't have the "wall paper" the rest of us do, so some of these Legacy Pack reprints might just need to be 3x. It's part of that "balance" LUke alluded to.

Apparently, people are wanting their staples to come in multiples and wouldn't a Legacy Pack be a bunch of staples? Just thinking out loud here, of course....

Oh...how I wish Bastard was legal. And Outfox...or at the very least, Safe Within the Walls, and Winter Storm, too. A Hostage Rescued would be pretty swell, as well.