With all the talk of the Kings of the Sea expansion, and the Princes of the Sun expansion being released later this year, I felt very strongly that there should be a separate post offering suggestions for expansions to the Core set next year. Please do not make this thread another venue for complaining about the KotS or PotS expansion, but instead a brainstorming venue for 2010 expansion and beyond.

First, I would like to propose that each expansion encompass two Houses instead of one. For those that have played this game for a while, I'm imagining a card composition scenario similar to the Premium Starters (Westeros, Ice and Fire, Valyrian, Winter Edition). Basically, you open the box and there are two different decks, one for each of the two houses the expansion represents. I could see each deck consisting of 7 plots and between 43-53 cards, for a total number of 100-120 cards in the expansion set.

I would use a similar packaging model as was used with KotS. I picked mine up yesterday, and I just loved the box. It is nowhere as big as the Core set box (1/4 the total volume), but still big enough to grab your attention in the store. I would not use Chapter pack type packaging or anything similar to the old Premium starter type packaging.

I would probably not include any frills (no counters, no gold coins, no special collectors items). I think it should be seen as a stand alone item where two players can play each other, but should not be seen as a replacement for the Core set. It should still be viewed as an Expansion to the Core set.

Personally, I would release these expansions three times per year (April, August, December). That way all 6 houses get an equal number of cards added to the Card pool each year. One year you could do an Ancient Enemy cycle of expansions (Targ vs Bara, Stark vs Greyjoy, Lanny vs Martell), then the next year you could do an Allies cycle (Targ and Martell, Stark and Bara, Lanny and Greyjoy), or even make them subtheme specific (Arryns, Tyrells, Boltons), etc, etc.

If they released an expansion set with 100-120 total cards and two playable decks, I don't see having any problem paying $30 for it. Heck, three Chapter packs gets me 120 total cards and costs $30.

I like your proposal

I would suggest for Martel, they should put the second deck as either Arryn or Night's Watch (neutral).

bloodycelt said:

Its too late for Martell, if you are referring to the Princes of the Sun expansion. In order to be released in November/December, it would need to be ready for the printers now. This is more for the expansions in 2010 and beyond.

In some ways... if this is all fixed product. One could have cycles of a different house makeup.

SPOILER WARNING (I don't know how to hide the text in the new forum type...)

YOU'VE BEEN WARNED.

Imagine if they did events that are later in the books:

A Feast for Crows: House Stark, House Baratheon are both out of the game of thrones. But new factions arise.

Brotherhood without Banners

The Faith Millitant

as new factions.

House Tyrell & House Frey (As Lannister... or seperate houses with Lannister specific characters useable by both).

House Arryn as controlled by Littlefinger and Alyane Stone.

+1 to your proposal, Dobbler.

As appealing as the suggestion may be, I see a few problems with it.

First, I'm no expert, but I think it might be difficult to keep in development three expansions and two cycles of chapter packs in any given year.

Second, if the three expansions are meant as replacement for the chapter packs, I believe quite a few people would start complaining about having to wait for months and months before getting new cards for their houses and the unfair advantage that such-and-such house would have at Gencon because their expansion would be legal while this one wouldn't or wouldn't even be out until after the con.

I'd rather see, let's say one themed expansion set a year (after all the six houses are back in the game), for instance a 'minor houses' one or a Night's Watch / Wildlings one and so on.

I would love to see an expansion with a Night's Watch deck and a Wildlings deck. There is plenty of source material in ASoIF to make these decks come alive. How FFG would create these decks within their current environment is more difficult (the old Night's Watch agenda idea was lame), but I'm sure they could think of something... : )

Tiziano said:

Nope, I did not mean these expansions as a replacement for the chapter packs. Instead they are a replacement (modification) of the expansions we are getting this year. If they already have development time for 2 cycles of chapter packs and two expansions in 2009, are we really adding that much by proposing one more expansion?

I agree that the KotS box is great. Beautiful graphics, premium linen finish (board gamers --myself included-- love that stuff ), and would be "just right" size for a two deck set. I'm not sure if it is the exact same dimensions as the box for say, Blue Moon, but is comparable to boxes used for card driven games that are popular with board gamers (e.g., Blue Moon, San Juan, Lost Cities) and so I don't think it would be dismissed/overlooked by folks coming from a board game background. I think the box would be big enough to hold two 60ish card decks, a card board sheet (with linen finish, of course) of punch out gold Dragons (coins), and 30 blue wooden cubes to use as power markers (wooden cubes are somewhat iconic game bits for "designer" board games and I think would be well received/familar to many board gamers). Shrinking down the instruction book to fit it might be the trickiest thing to pull off with that size packaging, but it should be doable. Adding the gold coins/power markers/rules is intended to make it playable stand alone, but I guess that's only necessary if the Core Set is not going to be a permanently available item.

LetsGoRed said:

Last I heard, the Core set is still intended as the "jumping" on point, so I wouldn't include coins/counters/rules unless FFG runs out of Core sets.

Dobbler said:

If you are proposing three expansions of about 120 new cards each, that's the equivalent of three series of chapter packs (a little less if you include multiples in the decks, of course).Besides, I'm not really sure that the two expansions we are getting this year mean that 2 expansions are planned for each year, after all there was the matter of bringing back into the game the two houses that weren't included in the core set .

I agree with Tiziano that your schedule of expansions (3x per year) is too frequent, especially if you are also expecting to see 2 cycles of CPs each year, too. My reasoning:

- The LCG model doesn't really support that many products coming out each year. It's too much to buy.

- It's too many cards, too quickly. The LCG model is for a constantly, but slowly, changing environment (20 cards a month). If you're going to inject two pre-made expansion decks every 3-4 months (an extra 360 cards per year), you may as well go back to the CCG model.

- It's too much to develop and playtest. Even reprinting, you're going to run out of cards pretty quickly and need to actually develop new cards. And I sure hope that FFG is playtesting each product since there is an impact on the environment with each one - particularly if there is a modification to a reprint. Either the development will be rushed, or the price will go up because of the additional "behind the scenes" work.

My feeling is that rather than so many expansions, so often, they create a "Core Decks" product. Maybe after the Martell expansion comes out, they create 3 products: Three 2-deck boxes that are really just the 6 pre-made decks from the Core Set and 2 expansions (probably some card-count modifications in the GJ to help the "out-of-the-box" resource curve a little easier to play). I'd think Stark vs. Lanni, Bara vs. Targ and Martell vs. Greyjoy. They could go for around $14.95 - $19.95 like the old 2-deck starters. Not only would this create 3 different "Joust entry" packs, but for those who do customize decks and want additional cards from the Core Set and expansions, they don't have to buy the entire Core or Expansion product (along with game pieces and other accessories) to get multiples of the deck they really want.

Then, instead of new expansions every few months, FFG could just keep these particular Core Decks in print. They'd only change if "Core Set v2.0" came out.

Some really good ideas were already mentioned, so here are my two cent.

Expansions size & packaging:

Definetely two decks with a 60 cards deck size each, packaging should be adequate for the items that will be in the box. Economic and ecolgical reasons have a higher importance than marketing reasons in my opinion.

Diversity of the cards in the pack:

Key cards and resources which see their first print in the LCG should be twice or thrice included in the product. Of course a card like e.g. Great keep shouldn´t be included thrice in an expansion because it´s already part of the Core set, but e.g. assume that northern hamlet would be reprinted in a future product it should be twice or thrice included in one product.

Extra items:

Not for me! Everything that´s not needed for gameplay shouldn´t be part of the product. So rules, faq, necessary game pieces are the things that should be part of the product, everything else could be part of a deluxe edition or purchased in any otehr way.

Themes for a box product:

I think after the release of the Martell box all houses are equally introduced to the LCG. So i can´t see the need to start house boxes every year. I´d prefer to see faction decks, there are so many in the world of George R.R. Martin which are at sometimes so poorly represented and if the cards come out in the chapter packs it takes too long for the themes to be fully established in my opinion. I´m thinking about: nightwatch, wildlings, asshai, Bolton, Tyrell, maesters, the others, brotherhood, kingsguard, dothraki, arryn, regions of westeros in general. Some of the factions seem to traditionally fit to a special house, but agendas, multi house affiliated cards and(or neutral cards could help balancing.

Release schedules:

Preferable two products a year (spring/fall). That´s because spring and fall are the typical gaming seasons with the big national and international conventions. Also three products a year could be too much for the casual gamers purse. Also the three major products a year cycle might be too strong associated with CCG products.

Artwork:

Not much to say about that. Keep up the good work of the last 2 years and probably reprint the good former artworks and everything should be fine.

I agree with tiziano. Three expansions a year, plus twelve chapter packs is a whole lot of cardboard. I liek the cut back on the filler cards - most of the cards in the CPs are usuable and cna find a hoem in many decks (just as a generalization) and I have far fewer cards sitting in shoeboxes these days and my gaming area is a lot less cluttered.

Just in temrs of expectations of scale, I would get behind something like Ktom's suggestion. seems a lot more manageable.

Stag Lord said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assumed that one of the reasons you continued to play "Standard" even after the removal of it as an official format was due to the increased cardpool and a lack of desire to move to a smaller card pool?

I already said this on Greyjoy thread, but I wish they had put the Martell and Greyjoy decks together in one box. I think that would have allowed the box to fall into a higher price bracket without seeming so expensive for what you get. It would also have been playable out of the box (though a little strange to buy if you don't have the Core Set and the cards for the four main houses). Looking at it from FFG's perspective, I don't think I like the idea of releasing a lot of two deck products though. That seems like it cuts into the Core Set's territory. Though I guess if these other products were marketed at a profitable price it wouldn't matter. I would think one two deck product a year would be enough. I think the focus should be on the chapter packs and the Core Set and there's no need to increase the rate of cards entering the LCG format.

I like the small but steady flow cards in the LCG. 2 expansions a year is enough. It keeps them special.

I would love a Night Watch and a Wildlings expansion next year.

For me is more important the content than the box, but I think just from pure player view, the big expansions should come in a big box. But also should contain like 120 cards. I like the idea of 2 Houses in one box, but maybe something else, see below. And I would include a all the stuff needed to play.

If there was enough cards to play the deck without a need od 2 or 3 copies (that means that basic cards are more then once inclued) you can even sell it with some special stuff (resin House cards etc.) but if I have to buy more copies of expansion, what am I gona do with 3 same resin House-cards.

I would very much like to see some aditional Houses as it was before, pls FFG could you start supporting small-House mechanics? I would love when the game could be very variable. So having BOLTONS, TYRELLS, CLANSMEN, BROTHERHOOD, DOTHRAKI, ARRYNS in the game would be very nice. Also WILDING and NIGHTS WATCH would be cool adition to the game play. So if we could get some of these expansion I would love the game even more.

Thanks for hearing us out.

Dobbler said:

I thought the reason Stag continued to play Standard was not the size of the LCG card pool, but rather the incomplete feeling it leaves a seasoned player with. The LCG card pool ends up feeling restrictive (or at least like a game that is not quite Thrones) because of the dearth of draw, cancels, combos, etc. Then again, that might just be my reason for continuing to play Standard. Stag's comments about the cutback on filler and the general increase in usability of the LCG cards does not seem to contradict a preference for the Standard format to me.

Rozy said:

But would the support for "small-House" mechanics necessarily need to be in the form of pre-made, pre-constructed expansion decks? Personally, I'd rather see a 6-pack CP-cycle that concentrated on a particular trait (or traits) and spread them through the Houses. That way, the trait is not pigeon-holed into whatever House card the pre-constructed deck comes with - something that is all but certain if the "trait Houses" are treated as pre-made expansion products.

Maybe I'm being blind, but I'd prefer new cards that make me explore the theme on my own to (predominantly) reprints in a pre-constructed deck.

~How about some House Qorgyle support?

Night's Watch and Wildlings would be cool, but I think I'd like to see maybe Clansmen and Arryns more. Thorns was a much neater set than anything in Winter block. It does seem to me that expansions are a good way to flush out certain neutral or multihouse factions, though. But chapter pack cycles can work just as well, too...just considerably slower.

ktom said:

Maybe I'm alone here, but the reason I stopped playing Standard was because the card pool was getting unwieldy. I tend to think that cards like The Eyrie, and the 2/2 Kingdoms were not good for the game. Too many resource cards were available that running a deck with a multitude of characters that cost 4+ was just as easy as a weenie deck back in the day, not to mention out of house cards were getting way too easy to include (I wasn't opposed to running 3 Broken Arms in my Lannister Court Singer deck, even at 5 gold). I don't think the chapter packs have made standard any better for that either (summer agenda standard decks...I could do mean things with that...). I do agree though, that at first, the LCG was very uneven, but I think it's working itself out to the point that now it definitely has that "thrones" feel to it...kind of VED thrones, to me, though (just without jousting grounds, thankfully).

I would be happy if they released the cards from Core set, KotS and PotS without the extra bits ( rulebook, board, coins, title pieces) in a single packet for something between 50$-60$. This way they could keep the current boxes/chapter packs while people can pick up playsets more easily.

I would even end up buying a second playset if this became available.

I would not expect to see more or regular expansions in AGOT's future. The intention behind "the Kings.." and "the Princes..." is to bring back the two lacking major houses back to the game. As it was mentioned by Nate in one of his previous articles, AGOT LCG as it was after the Core Set release, did not feel right lacking the Greyjoy and Martell houses. I would rather expect evolution of the next Core Set content towards including the 6 basic AGOT's houses, than some regular one or two decks expansions to the game.