More rule clarifications: Necromancy, Alarm, OL cards during Lt. Encounters

By FeX2, in Descent: Journeys in the Dark

1) Can monsters that are animated by a hero with Necromancy continue with the heroes to the next level of a dungeon?

I am assuming no, based on page 18 of the RTL rulebook, which states: "Once a hero steps onto the portal map piece, he is removed from the board and becomes invulnerable to harm. Heroes remain thusly in transit until all of them either enter the portal or move to town, at which point all of the heroes are moved to the next level."

2) Can the "Alarm" Trap (Chest) card be played if there are no unrevealed areas, for the sole purpose of ending the hero's turn?

This one is probably going to come down to semantics, so for reference, here is the exact text of the card: "Play this card when a hero opens a chest. The hero must roll a power die. If he rolls a blank, nothing happens. If he does not roll a blank, you may immediately open one door (that is not rune-locked) leading to an unrevealed area. That area is now immediately revealed, the hero's turn ends, and it is now your turn."

Obviously, the use of the word "may" indicates that the card can be played even if there are no unrevealed areas, but I am uncertain whether the hero's turn would still end and the overlord's would begin if no hidden areas are revealed.

3) Use of the word "dungeon" on Treachery-purchased OL cards, when used in lieutenant encounters .

Cards purchased with treachery can be added to the Overlord's hand at the start of a lieutenant encounter, then "played as normal," according to page 16 of the RTL rulebook. Many of these cards make specific use of the word "dungeon." For example, the "Animate Weapons" card reads:

"Play at the start of your turn. Each hero in the dungeon must roll a power die. If the result is a blank..."

Is it safe to assume that, when using cards purchased with treachery during a lieutenant encounter, the word "dungeon" can be interpreted as "dungeon/encounter," so that the card will still effect all the heroes currently on the map, or are these cards useless outside of actual dungeons?

fex said:

1) Can monsters that are animated by a hero with Necromancy continue with the heroes to the next level of a dungeon?

I am assuming no, based on page 18 of the RTL rulebook, which states: "Once a hero steps onto the portal map piece, he is removed from the board and becomes invulnerable to harm. Heroes remain thusly in transit until all of them either enter the portal or move to town, at which point all of the heroes are moved to the next level."

2) Can the "Alarm" Trap (Chest) card be played if there are no unrevealed areas, for the sole purpose of ending the hero's turn?

This one is probably going to come down to semantics, so for reference, here is the exact text of the card: "Play this card when a hero opens a chest. The hero must roll a power die. If he rolls a blank, nothing happens. If he does not roll a blank, you may immediately open one door (that is not rune-locked) leading to an unrevealed area. That area is now immediately revealed, the hero's turn ends, and it is now your turn."

Obviously, the use of the word "may" indicates that the card can be played even if there are no unrevealed areas, but I am uncertain whether the hero's turn would still end and the overlord's would begin if no hidden areas are revealed.

3) Use of the word "dungeon" on Treachery-purchased OL cards, when used in lieutenant encounters .

Cards purchased with treachery can be added to the Overlord's hand at the start of a lieutenant encounter, then "played as normal," according to page 16 of the RTL rulebook. Many of these cards make specific use of the word "dungeon." For example, the "Animate Weapons" card reads:

"Play at the start of your turn. Each hero in the dungeon must roll a power die. If the result is a blank..."

Is it safe to assume that, when using cards purchased with treachery during a lieutenant encounter, the word "dungeon" can be interpreted as "dungeon/encounter," so that the card will still effect all the heroes currently on the map, or are these cards useless outside of actual dungeons?

1) I'm not positive but why would that statement mean that a necromanced monster not be able to continue with you to the next level? Just because its says heroes? If you go with that, then your familar wouldn't be able to go to the next level either since they aren't heroes. I don't know of anything preventing a necromanced monster from coming with you to the next level, nor is there anything in the description for Necromancy to prevent it.

2) Well, for Rumors and Legendary dungeon levels there are areas. The triggering condition is "when a hero opens a chest". Anything past that is the result of playing the card and shouldn't restrict it actual play.

3) All those were written prior to RtL and are written that way because of FFG's stance of making expansions that only match to the core game and not the other expansions. So yes, you can basically swap the word "encounter" for "dungeon" in those cards.

Big Remy said:

fex said:

1) Can monsters that are animated by a hero with Necromancy continue with the heroes to the next level of a dungeon?

I am assuming no, based on page 18 of the RTL rulebook, which states: "Once a hero steps onto the portal map piece, he is removed from the board and becomes invulnerable to harm. Heroes remain thusly in transit until all of them either enter the portal or move to town, at which point all of the heroes are moved to the next level."

2) Can the "Alarm" Trap (Chest) card be played if there are no unrevealed areas, for the sole purpose of ending the hero's turn?

This one is probably going to come down to semantics, so for reference, here is the exact text of the card: "Play this card when a hero opens a chest. The hero must roll a power die. If he rolls a blank, nothing happens. If he does not roll a blank, you may immediately open one door (that is not rune-locked) leading to an unrevealed area. That area is now immediately revealed, the hero's turn ends, and it is now your turn."

Obviously, the use of the word "may" indicates that the card can be played even if there are no unrevealed areas, but I am uncertain whether the hero's turn would still end and the overlord's would begin if no hidden areas are revealed.

3) Use of the word "dungeon" on Treachery-purchased OL cards, when used in lieutenant encounters .

Cards purchased with treachery can be added to the Overlord's hand at the start of a lieutenant encounter, then "played as normal," according to page 16 of the RTL rulebook. Many of these cards make specific use of the word "dungeon." For example, the "Animate Weapons" card reads:

"Play at the start of your turn. Each hero in the dungeon must roll a power die. If the result is a blank..."

Is it safe to assume that, when using cards purchased with treachery during a lieutenant encounter, the word "dungeon" can be interpreted as "dungeon/encounter," so that the card will still effect all the heroes currently on the map, or are these cards useless outside of actual dungeons?

1) I'm not positive but why would that statement mean that a necromanced monster not be able to continue with you to the next level? Just because its says heroes? If you go with that, then your familar wouldn't be able to go to the next level either since they aren't heroes. I don't know of anything preventing a necromanced monster from coming with you to the next level, nor is there anything in the description for Necromancy to prevent it.

2) Well, for Rumors and Legendary dungeon levels there are areas. The triggering condition is "when a hero opens a chest". Anything past that is the result of playing the card and shouldn't restrict it actual play.

3) All those were written prior to RtL and are written that way because of FFG's stance of making expansions that only match to the core game and not the other expansions. So yes, you can basically swap the word "encounter" for "dungeon" in those cards.

1) Because when heroes are placed on or adjacent to the start glyph 'as normal', familiars have rules for being placed with them. Necromancied monsters do not.
IMO necromancied monsters cannot be carried through to a new dungeon level as there is no mechanism for them to do so.

2) Agree with Remy.

3) I do not think you can play them (or rather they have no effect). You are not in a dungeon.
There are very few cards that actually say 'dungeon' (I believe just the Animate Weapons and Dance of the Monkey God) and they are incredibly powerful cards, Both of them attack all heroes at once, with extreme prejudice, and are basically encounter enders. I think they are simply too powerful to be reasonably used in encounters, which can be hard enough without them now that Telekinesis is gone.
I think it is most likely fortunate coincidence rather than clever planning that has created this difference of wording, but the wording exists and RAW, you can't play them.
FWIW, the german version of the game, released after the German version of RtL, does not use the term dungeon in these cards. Whether that is on instruction from FFG, clear decision by the Germans, or just the whim/mistake of the translator is unknown, though most likely scenario there is clear decision by the Germans.
It is also worth noting that the OL has the choice whether to use these cards or not, so he is not ever being forced into using useless cards. Further, 2 treachery will get you 2 dark charms and a 4 threat discard or crushing block. Which is probably a better deal!

1) In addition, there is the clarification in the FAQ or GLoAQ that monsters can never enter a portal piece.

3) Agree with Remy here. Especially with Feat cards like Disarm Trap or Preventing Evil the mentioned cards lose much of their threatening power. Alas, I tend to see the game as a whole with all expansions, so that may be a little biased and in contrast to FFGs policy.

Btw, the German translators had made a bunch of modifications in the past that were not very well thought out, e.g. allowing runes on chainmail, removing Undying from skeletons or changing Dark Charm to an Event card.

1) Ah, thank you, Parathion, that might be enough to convince my heroes.

My heroes are making the [rather silly] argument that a monster controlled by Necromancy is most similar to a familiar , and should be treated as such. I did my best to convince them that a Necromance'd monster is, in fact, most similar to a monster , even pointing them to the description of the Necromancy skill, which clearly indicates that the monster stays on the board and remains exactly as it was, just with full health and under control of the hero instead of the overlord. I can't believe I'm still having to argue the point with them, to be honest: it seems perfectly clear to me. :P

fex said:

1) Ah, thank you, Parathion, that might be enough to convince my heroes.

My heroes are making the [rather silly] argument that a monster controlled by Necromancy is most similar to a familiar , and should be treated as such. I did my best to convince them that a Necromance'd monster is, in fact, most similar to a monster , even pointing them to the description of the Necromancy skill, which clearly indicates that the monster stays on the board and remains exactly as it was, just with full health and under control of the hero instead of the overlord. I can't believe I'm still having to argue the point with them, to be honest: it seems perfectly clear to me. :P

If the persist with this somewhat ... err... strange... claim that necromancied monsters are most like familiars you can remind them that unlike familars, necromancied monsters can;
a) not be moved through by enemies
b) attack using their normal attack (only one familiar can attack as=nd it is a special attack which can have no bonuses or penalties)
c) be attacked
d) be wounded an/or killed
e) be removed when they 'die' or the necromancy runs out

Ummm, not even remotely like familiars in fact.