The design space lies in the opportunity cost of modification upgrades.

And the S loops, and the fast dial, and the stat line, and the theme.

The design space lies in the opportunity cost of modification upgrades.

And the S loops, and the fast dial, and the stat line, and the theme.

Exactly. If you make the argument for an Interceptor with built in shields, than ya, it isn't needed. But the Interceptor pays a premium for shields and autothrusters. Once you give it S turns, play with the dial( some 1 reds and 3 greens for example), change the actions up, give it a missile slot, tractor slot, and shields you end up with something way different than the Interceptor, Advanced or Defender. Especially the Defender, with it's lack of green banks and access to cannons.

The design space lies in the opportunity cost of modification upgrades.

And the S loops, and the fast dial, and the stat line, and the theme.

The opportunity cost for modifications is lower for the Interceptor than for any other ship in the game, which fixes the stat line issue, and the Interceptor already has a fast dial. So does the Defender, for that matter.

As for the theme, my hypothesis is that there's a set of players for whom introducing the Avenger is so important that they don't really care whether there's room for it in the game. I'm just repeating myself now, but while I'm sorry for those people I'm not sure what to do for them.

***

Let's dig deeper into it, though. I'm entirely willing to agree that the Empire needs a fighter that sits between the Interceptor and the Defender in terms of costs and stats. So let's look at 3/3/3/1, which is a fine stat line and worth about 20 points at PS1--cheaper than an Interceptor + Shield Upgrade, obviously, and with its modification slot open (which is an advantage over the Interceptor at least for PS1-4 ships). You could go with 3/3/3/2, but that puts it really, really close to being a cheaper Defender, so we probably want to avoid that.

It should obviously have focus and target lock, which leaves room for two more actions on the bar. Every other TIE variant has barrel roll, and if you include that you have one more spot (no ship has more than four icons in its action bar). Do you give it evade, which results in the same bar as the Advanced, or boost, which gives the Avenger the same bar as the Interceptor?

As far as the dial, thematically it should be a hybrid between the Advanced and Interceptor. That means 4-straight and 5-straight, all the 3-speed maneuvers, all the 2-speed maneuvers, and possibly both 1-turns and 1-banks. You want to slap a K-turn or two on there, as well--maybe just that fairly typical 4K. You want to give it S-loops, but that creates a problem: no dial yet has had more than 17 maneuvers on it, probably due to physical constraints of space on the dial. So now you have to pull some maneuvers back off--probably either the 1-bank or the 1-turn. Do you want it to perform like a TIE Advanced with S-loops, or a TIE Interceptor with S-loops?

These are the kinds of questions I'm talking about. Virtually everything about the Avenger demands that you answer questions about whether you want it to be like this ship or like that ship, but there's very little that would make anyone look at it and say "okay, it adds something new to the game". It's filling in a thematic bubble people seem to desire, and that's fine with me, but it's not fulfilling any design purpose.

No tie droids because you can't have named pilots.

One could have said no Aggressor because you can't have unnamed pilots. They'd be crazy but you get my meaning.

actualy there is a good chance of a no named aggressor with slightly reduced stats and without accsess to ig2000

I have a strong feeling you completely missed what I was saying.

The Aggressor broke the convention of having both unnamed and named pilots, proving that convention is not unbreakable. Therefore, it is not impossible that a hypothetical TIE droid faction could potentially contain no unique pilots.

I've already posted stats before, but since you asked I'll go over them again.

First off stats. Let's take a look at our subject instead of grabbing numbers. We have a ship with same loadout as an Interceptor. It's also supposed to have similar maneuverability. It has less armor than it's prototype, but stronger shields. So lets run with 3-3-2-3. Defender still has the better stat line and the two hull adds an interesting vulnerability to things that ignore shields.

Now to the dial. We know it's supposed to be fast. There is conflicting info on which is more maneuverable, the Avenger or Interceptor. So lets make the Avenger focus on speed and keep the Interceptor the superior knife fighter.

Speed 1: Red turn, red bank. It's hard to turn at such a high speed, but it can pull it off with effort.

Speed 2: Red turn, white bank, green straight. Those turns are getting a little easier. Also note the reds mark off a cone. We seeing it's flight profile.

Speed 3: White turn, green bank, green straight, red S turn. Note that it lacks green turns. An Interceptor will always turn insidr of it easier.

Speed 4: Green straight

Speed 5: White straight, red K turn.

Alright, now we have a unique dial, it represents the ship well, and insures the Interceptor remains the better close in ship.

Now we need actions. It's manueverable and has a missile. It's also a TIE so. Focus, Target lock, Evade, Barrel roll. We still want the Interceptor to be more up close than it. So no boost.

Upgrades. It's Imperial so nothing too crazy. A missile slot for sure. A tractor beam would be cool too.

Alright there we go! A protected, agile ship that has a unique flair of it's own!

the A-9 had the same damage output as the phantom, so I would see it having attack of 4

it was more agile, agility of 3

but the same hull strength with no shields, so 2 hull and no shields. lets not forget these things were stolen from the empire and were now part of the rebel fleet, so it would be the first rebel ship with no shields

they were faster than the interceptor, giving them green 5 straight, so I would think more of an A-Wing dial than interceptor, but give it the barrel roll action as well.

looking again at this ships is supposed to be the most maneuverable thing ever built at its time, so I am thinking lots of green maneuvers, maybe even a built in evade token for certain maneuvers.

Alright there we go! A protected, agile ship that has a unique flair of it's own!

A ship that works just like a damaged Defender, with a worse dial in exchange for S-loops!

Here are some ideas for an Avenger. I'll outline why specific decisions make it different than an Interceptor, Defender and other ships.

Give a TIE Avenger a 3-3-2-2 statline. No other ship has this statline and I imagine it should be worth about 20 points. Having four total hit points makes it beefier than Interceptors (especially with two of them being shields) but clearly weaker than Defenders and a bit weaker than Advanceds. The two hull leaves it more vulnerable to Proton Bombs than Interceptors or Defenders.

Take the Interceptor dial. Remove the 5 straight and the 3-K. Give it red S-Loops at 2 speed (2 speed instead of 3 makes it different from the other S-Looping ships, the Aggressor and Starviper). Turn the green 4 straight to white and turn the white 3 banks to green (I believe it would be the first ship to have green 3 banks). Mayyyyybe change the white 1 turns to red. I think those changes would make the Avenger have a pretty distinct flying identity.

Give it Focus, Target Lock, Barrel Roll and Evade. No Boost like an Interceptor has — I don't think we'll want this ship to be able to take Autothrusters, but we'll need it to get Target Locks, so it gets Target Lock. That's a different action bar than Interceptors and Defenders, although it's the same as the Advanced's. Oh well, it's not like action bars usually are drastically different — there are only so many actions in the game.

Give it a new upgrade, the Beam Weapon. This is what would make the TIE Avenger unique more than anything else. The Assault Gunboat could have this upgrade, too. Other upgrade slots would be Missile (giving it Proton Rockets, an option Interceptors don't have) and System Upgrade (which would work because this ship has 3 attack so Accuracy Corrector wouldn't be broken and this ship could make good use of Advanced Sensors before its red S-Loops).

Alright there we go! A protected, agile ship that has a unique flair of it's own!

A ship that works just like a damaged Defender, with a worse dial in exchange for S-loops!

Oh come on. You could start off with describing the TIE Interceptor and the upgraded TIE Advanced as "a ship that works just like a damaged Defender," too.

The dial All Shields Forward described (which is fairly similar to the one I posted!) doesn't have all red turns (OK, but it's close — mine isn't like that) and it doesn't have a white K-turn, so it automatically doesn't fly anything like a Defender.

Alright there we go! A protected, agile ship that has a unique flair of it's own!

A ship that works just like a damaged Defender, with a worse dial in exchange for S-loops!

Oh come on. You could start off with describing the TIE Interceptor and the upgraded TIE Advanced as "a ship that works just like a damaged Defender," too.

The dial All Shields Forward described (which is fairly similar to the one I posted!) doesn't have all red turns (OK, but it's close — mine isn't like that) and it doesn't have a white K-turn, so it automatically doesn't fly anything like a Defender.

No, I couldn't. The TIE Interceptor has an excellent dial--a TIE Fighter with more green. The TIE Advanced has a weird but decent dial. The TIE Defender and All Shields Forward's Avenger share a marked inability to turn, but the ASF Avenger also can't turn around without using a red maneuver. It works like a Defender with -1 hull, no white K, and the evade action. They're substantially similar, except that the Avenger will be worse.

Your version is substantially better, honestly, although I'm pretty skeptical about beam weapons, too.

Also, besides the white K turn the cannons are a defining feature of the Defender.

Alright there we go! A protected, agile ship that has a unique flair of it's own!

A ship that works just like a damaged Defender, with a worse dial in exchange for S-loops!

Oh come on. You could start off with describing the TIE Interceptor and the upgraded TIE Advanced as "a ship that works just like a damaged Defender," too. The dial All Shields Forward described (which is fairly similar to the one I posted!) doesn't have all red turns (OK, but it's close — mine isn't like that) and it doesn't have a white K-turn, so it automatically doesn't fly anything like a Defender.

No, I couldn't. The TIE Interceptor has an excellent dial--a TIE Fighter with more green. The TIE Advanced has a weird but decent dial. The TIE Defender and All Shields Forward's Avenger share a marked inability to turn, but the ASF Avenger also can't turn around without using a red maneuver. It works like a Defender with -1 hull, no white K, and the evade action. They're substantially similar, except that the Avenger will be worse.Your version is substantially better, honestly, although I'm pretty skeptical about beam weapons, too.

Alright there we go! A protected, agile ship that has a unique flair of it's own!

A ship that works just like a damaged Defender, with a worse dial in exchange for S-loops!

Oh come on. You could start off with describing the TIE Interceptor and the upgraded TIE Advanced as "a ship that works just like a damaged Defender," too. The dial All Shields Forward described (which is fairly similar to the one I posted!) doesn't have all red turns (OK, but it's close — mine isn't like that) and it doesn't have a white K-turn, so it automatically doesn't fly anything like a Defender.

No, I couldn't. The TIE Interceptor has an excellent dial--a TIE Fighter with more green. The TIE Advanced has a weird but decent dial. The TIE Defender and All Shields Forward's Avenger share a marked inability to turn, but the ASF Avenger also can't turn around without using a red maneuver. It works like a Defender with -1 hull, no white K, and the evade action. They're substantially similar, except that the Avenger will be worse.Your version is substantially better, honestly, although I'm pretty skeptical about beam weapons, too.

Alright there we go! A protected, agile ship that has a unique flair of it's own!

A ship that works just like a damaged Defender, with a worse dial in exchange for S-loops!

Oh come on. You could start off with describing the TIE Interceptor and the upgraded TIE Advanced as "a ship that works just like a damaged Defender," too. The dial All Shields Forward described (which is fairly similar to the one I posted!) doesn't have all red turns (OK, but it's close — mine isn't like that) and it doesn't have a white K-turn, so it automatically doesn't fly anything like a Defender.

No, I couldn't. The TIE Interceptor has an excellent dial--a TIE Fighter with more green. The TIE Advanced has a weird but decent dial. The TIE Defender and All Shields Forward's Avenger share a marked inability to turn, but the ASF Avenger also can't turn around without using a red maneuver. It works like a Defender with -1 hull, no white K, and the evade action. They're substantially similar, except that the Avenger will be worse.Your version is substantially better, honestly, although I'm pretty skeptical about beam weapons, too.

I've had others actually test my idea. It maneuvered far better than the Defender. The speed 1 and 2 reds make it look as restrictive as the Defender, but the green 3 bank and red 3 S turn gives it manueverabilty not initially apparent.

And I will stress again, that comment was from people other than myself.

Alright there we go! A protected, agile ship that has a unique flair of it's own!

A ship that works just like a damaged Defender, with a worse dial in exchange for S-loops!

A Tie Interceptor is like a tie fighter. By your argument it shouldn't exist because "design space". We could do this for nearly every ship if all you need to disqualify it is for it to just be like another ship.

An E Wing is like an x wing but with hull shield flipped and different actions. A B wing is a y with a cannon. Defenders are Advanced that traded all their green in for red turns and a white k turn. Oh and spent ten points for a cannon slot.

Alright there we go! A protected, agile ship that has a unique flair of it's own!

A ship that works just like a damaged Defender, with a worse dial in exchange for S-loops!

Imagine a tie fighter with green turns at 2, +1 attack, and this new boost mechanic.

A Tie Interceptor is like a tie fighter. By your argument it shouldn't exist because "design space". We could do this for nearly every ship if all you need to disqualify it is for it to just be like another ship.

The Interceptor's increased Attack and access to the boost action are exactly what serve to differentiate it from the TIE fighter. If the Interceptor had a 2/3/4/0 stat line with its current dial and no boost, then it would indeed have exactly the same design space problem I'm talking about here.

An E Wing is like an x wing but with hull shield flipped and different actions.

Yes: it has +1 Agility, an action bar with a very unusual action for Rebel ships, and access to the system slot. It's easy to tell the difference between the E-wing and X-wing.

A B wing is a y with a cannon.

Very different dials, action bars, and upgrade bars. Easy to tell the difference.

Defenders are Advanced that traded all their green in for red turns and a white k turn. Oh and spent ten points for a cannon slot.

+1 Attack and very different dials, including access to 1-turns (which is a big deal) and the unprecedented white K. Again, you can tell the two ships apart with a single look at almost any game component.

Your Avenger, though, has a very similar stat line to the Defender, a very similar dial to the defender, a very similar upgrade bar to the Defender (no cannon), and a very similar action bar. You've designed a ship that looks a lot like the Defender, so much so that it's not clear what purpose it would serve in the game.

This will be my last post in this thread.

So if that's all it takes, different actions and a different dial then there's space for a target locking, s-looping, shield having Tie Avenger. It's different than both the defender and the interceptor.

(If I may plug my "goes fast" post from last page...)

That's fine. There really isn't a point in continuing this non discussion because you've made it clear again you intend to ignore everyone pointing that your argument is incorrect. You keep ignoring the major significance of the S turn, the lack of a cannon, the presence of an evade action, and the presence of green banks, of which the absence on the Defender is well noted.