The two lists were:
[ REBEL FLEET (298 points)
1 • Nebulon-B Escort Frigate - Weapons Liaison - Enhanced Armament - Redemption (78)
2 • Nebulon-B Escort Frigate - General Dodonna (77)
3 • CR90 Corellian Corvette B - Dodonna's Pride (45)
4 • Luke Skywalker X-wing Squadron (20)
5 • X-wing Squadron (13)
6 • X-wing Squadron (13)
7 • X-wing Squadron (13)
8 • X-wing Squadron (13)
9 • X-wing Squadron (13)
10 • X-wing Squadron (13)

[ EMPIRE FLEET (296 points)
1 • Victory II-class Star Destroyer - Grand Moff Tarkin - Weapons Liaison - Gunnery Team (133)
2 • Victory II-class Star Destroyer - Weapons Liaison - Gunnery Team - Dominator (107)
3 • 'Howlrunner'' TIE Fighter Squadron (16)
4 • TIE Fighter Squadron (8)
5 • TIE Fighter Squadron (8)
6 • TIE Fighter Squadron (8)
7 • TIE Fighter Squadron (8)
8 • TIE Fighter Squadron (8)

And we played minefield and hyperspace assault ... in mine field he just slowly moved up and kept the VSD's covering each other and made sure the Tie's were never far from the VSD and out of range from squadron commands.

I tried to flank him with my ships but I couldn't get around one of the two front arcs from his ships ... and the combined firepower was too much.

In the first game I was able to take down 1 VSD (Dominator) as it was the ship that hyperspaced assaulted and I had all my ships tear it apart, but I lost both nebulon B's in the process and the Corvette eventually became useless @ speed 2 it flew itself out of the fight ... I could have slowed them down but then they would have taken some crazy fire from the VSD.....

BOth times the VSD's were parked in a corner and angled in and he just travelled at speed 1 towards the middle.

Different objectives may have made a difference.

Definitely play something that isn't haut blow up the enemy for objectives.

VSDs starting in a corner is the way you're mostly going to encounter them, because its a really good place for them to start. However, you should still be able to get around them. Go towards the middle and then down towards their side of the board should give you their flank. Place obstacles in such a way to give yourself cover, which can be really helpful. And risk the long-range fire from one of the VSDs to let the Neb-Bs broadside the TIEs, which can do a ton of damage if they're keeping them clumped to receive Squadron commands.

If Victory goes at speed 1 and uses nav commands you cant really outmanouver it quickly enough. by doing 2 clicks on speed 1 it can even keep you in its front arc for a while.

Even without the nav command on victory it takes 4 turns or so to get behind it. Its not that easy when enemy knows how to react.

Also when you are circlign aorund with Nebulon you expsoe its 1 shield side arc, its asking for trouble. With MonCal cruisers and assult firagtes circling aorund star destoryer is the way to go tough.

I would admit that you were in error to start an insurrection against a legitimate government and beg for mercy from the Imperial courts.

I agree Microscop ... its very hard to out do the VSD's.

Deathseed while funny and I agree sadly so many people imperial where I live sorta forces my hand.

If Victory goes at speed 1 and uses nav commands you cant really outmanouver it quickly enough. by doing 2 clicks on speed 1 it can even keep you in its front arc for a while.

Even without the nav command on victory it takes 4 turns or so to get behind it. Its not that easy when enemy knows how to react.

VSDs can't have their front arc pointed in two directions at once, and the Rebel ships are maneuverable enough to split up and then converge again. Also, if you engage the TIEs with your X-Wings, the VSDs can't afford to use Nav commands if they need the Squadron commands (also, you'll be sapping their tokens as they use their Weapons Liaisons). On top of that, so long as you keep your Neb-Bs with the X-Wings, you'll easily wipe the TIEs off the board, and then you pull your fleet back and let your X-Wings demolish a VSD.

The TIEs are what you need to target when facing a VSD wall--as long as you destroy the TIEs and keep your own ships and squadrons alive, you win. Why would you even try to go head on with a VSD when you don't need to?

Problem is Wave I rebels ships have most of their shields and firepower at the front, so to utilsie it they should atack frontally which is suicidal vs VSD.

With Assult Frigate and MonCal Cruisers you can actually cricle the ship while bringing your main batteries to bear and without worrying if getting 1 shotted in the weakspot.

If Victory goes at speed 1 and uses nav commands you cant really outmanouver it quickly enough. by doing 2 clicks on speed 1 it can even keep you in its front arc for a while.

Even without the nav command on victory it takes 4 turns or so to get behind it. Its not that easy when enemy knows how to react.

VSDs can't have their front arc pointed in two directions at once, and the Rebel ships are maneuverable enough to split up and then converge again. Also, if you engage the TIEs with your X-Wings, the VSDs can't afford to use Nav commands if they need the Squadron commands (also, you'll be sapping their tokens as they use their Weapons Liaisons). On top of that, so long as you keep your Neb-Bs with the X-Wings, you'll easily wipe the TIEs off the board, and then you pull your fleet back and let your X-Wings demolish a VSD.

The TIEs are what you need to target when facing a VSD wall--as long as you destroy the TIEs and keep your own ships and squadrons alive, you win. Why would you even try to go head on with a VSD when you don't need to?

You have 6 turns, getting on VSD flank will take at least 3, sure you can split but victory can take 1 of those ships down before you will be able to converge them again. To use squadron command you need to stay at range 2 so if ties are stickign to VSD you will haev to enter its range anyway. Also VSD using weapons laison can get squadron commands when it needed and for most turns focus on navigation or engineering.

If Victory goes at speed 1 and uses nav commands you cant really outmanouver it quickly enough. by doing 2 clicks on speed 1 it can even keep you in its front arc for a while.

Even without the nav command on victory it takes 4 turns or so to get behind it. Its not that easy when enemy knows how to react.

VSDs can't have their front arc pointed in two directions at once, and the Rebel ships are maneuverable enough to split up and then converge again. Also, if you engage the TIEs with your X-Wings, the VSDs can't afford to use Nav commands if they need the Squadron commands (also, you'll be sapping their tokens as they use their Weapons Liaisons). On top of that, so long as you keep your Neb-Bs with the X-Wings, you'll easily wipe the TIEs off the board, and then you pull your fleet back and let your X-Wings demolish a VSD.

The TIEs are what you need to target when facing a VSD wall--as long as you destroy the TIEs and keep your own ships and squadrons alive, you win. Why would you even try to go head on with a VSD when you don't need to?

You have 6 turns, getting on VSD flank will take at least 3, sure you can split but victory can take 1 of those ships down before you will be able to converge them again. To use squadron command you need to stay at range 2 so if ties are stickign to VSD you will haev to enter its range anyway. Also VSD using weapons laison can get squadron commands when it needed and for most turns focus on navigation or engineering.

Yes, you have 6 turns. I have, in fact, played the game. I am also very aware of how VSDs handle. And a VSD is not going to just take down a Rebel ship. If you are blowing Rebel ships out of the sky left and right, you're going against a suicidal Rebel player. If TIEs are sticking BEHIND the VSDs, then yes, you'll have to enter the VSDs range.. but their attack at range 3 isn't all that scary, especially if you're coming at the side. But even head on, at medium range of the TIEs which is going to be long range of the VSDs, you're probably only taking damage to your shields. I also mentioned the Weapons Liaisons, as I said you'd be sapping the VSDs tokens.

Again though, its not about fighting the VSDs. Its about taking out the TIEs, which you can absolutely do if you fly smart and set up obstacles well and pick the right objectives. The VSDs are not keeping their TIEs behind their VSDs, so being in medium range of the TIEs does not mean being in medium range of the VSDs. Not only that, but with more ships (and going first, I'm guessing from those lists/objectives) the Rebel can move a Neb in as close as needed at the end of one turn, and then at the beginning of the next blast the TIEs and then get out of there before the VSDs even get a chance to shoot.

When the rebel ships are maneuvering in the ways described - shouldn't some or all of that turning present to firing solutions from different hulls on the VSD in the same turn??

When the rebel ships are maneuvering in the ways described - shouldn't some or all of that turning present to firing solutions from different hulls on the VSD in the same turn??

Red dice from the VSD aren't really that scary at long range, especially if you have the Redemption in the mix.

Just to make sure, are you using the proper table setup, using the "Setup Area" rule? Because there should be about a foot of clearance from the sides that allow for flanking.

game of manuver

Go at speed 2, and first turn do a Navigate command to get a token.

Once you are in long range, navigate again, and use the token to maximize your speed. you should be able to cut through the front arc and get into the side arc. on the next turn the Neb should be able to blow away some TIEs ,and give the X-wings a squadron command.

Couple of quick points:

1) Red dice don't threaten the VSD either really at range.
2) And you are pretty much NEVER depleting their Tokens... because Tarkin is always giving them a token every round (Plus some banked ones from the first 1-2 turns)

3) I will DEFINITELY agree my choice of Objectives was poor ... I'll need to rethink that.
4) Most imperial players are playing pretty defencively forcing the rebel player to engage or not (Maybe this where I need better objectives choices)

5) Because imps are being defensive I have to move to them and if I move within 3 to strike the Tie's I tend to eat a squadron token the next turn from one of the two VSD's and 3 tie's jump out (Normally howl runner +2 tie)and the bleeding commences.

The hardest part I find is flanking I find spreading out the Nebulon B's is a bad idea because I'm firing on different hull zones of the VSD ... and I never get through its shields, plus I can screen one nebulon B with the other (Normally the Redemption is being screened so it can help with repair points)

I think one thing I'm not taking advantage of is having more ships so I will always have the last play, and if I'm going first that's a huge advantage like you said.

You said it yourself. You are letting your opponent dictate the terms of the engagement. You need to "take back" the initiative and for him to do what you want.

One real a** move would be for you to refuse to engage his force, and just let the time run out (if the objective is non favourable). After a few games pulling that BS on your opponent, he will either stop playing or start playing differently.

Think about it like this, why would two destroyers and two light cruisers engage two battleships in World War 2. Thy wouldn't, because they would be obliterated. (Note: torpedo runs under the cover of smoke / darkness / wider fleet action notwithstanding as it is the Vic in this game armed with the torps)

WINNING AND LOSING

The game ends after six rounds. The players determine their

scores and the player with the highest score wins.

• If both players have the same score after six rounds, the

second player wins the game.

• If all ships in a fleet are destroyed, ignoring squadrons,

the game immediately ends. The player with one or

more ships remaining in the play area is the winner.

• If the last remaining ships in both fleets are destroyed at

the same time, the player with the highest score wins. If

both players have the same score, the second player wins.

You picked the objective, so you were first player, yes?

You pretty much have to score some points, then. If it were possible to get close enough to do some anti-squadron and then run away, I'd totally do it.

I also would not have picked this objective given the choice. What were the other options the second player brought?

If you're second player and this is what first player picks, set up for him to come to you. Bank a navigate token on each of your ships and then slow them to 0 so that he is forced to head out if he wants to get any points.

I'm wondering. You have both Dodonna and Dodonna's pride? How many blue dice are you throwing with it? You don't need to go through the shields if you have that ship, score one critical result on a blue dice, you can simply cancel the die results and hand your opponent a face up damage card, effectively bypassing defense tokens. Since you have Dodonna as a commander, you can pick the best of the first four face up cards. Crits in the game are far mor devastating than simply working a hull down.

Similarly for Luke, he can bypass shields... Granted he's harder to get into striking distance if your opponent knows to go after him...

What did he do with his ties? Keep them spread out as a screen or bunched between the ships.

If he kept them bunched up, another option for you is a concentrated alpha strike. Use a squadron command to drop 6 (?) xwings including Luke on one facing, with both nebulons firing on the same side from long range. That is 11 red dice and one black, so 9 damage or so. That will seriously degrade his ability to fight especially if you get 1 or 2 crits in.

If he kept them spread out, send In the fighters anyway, but this time target his ties. Depending on deployments, you can take out one tie at the cost of 2 red dice from the xwings. In this case save Luke for last.

I'm wondering. You have both Dodonna and Dodonna's pride? How many blue dice are you throwing with it? You don't need to go through the shields if you have that ship, score one critical result on a blue dice, you can simply cancel the die results and hand your opponent a face up damage card, effectively bypassing defense tokens. Since you have Dodonna as a commander, you can pick the best of the first four face up cards. Crits in the game are far mor devastating than simply working a hull down.

Similarly for Luke, he can bypass shields... Granted he's harder to get into striking distance if your opponent knows to go after him...

It should certainly help. You're still trying to get through six hull this way, though.

A VSD that gets all of it's dice can actually one-shot a CR90, though. A Victory 1 that gets close range can do it, I think, without even caring whether the CR90 spent tokens. You've still got to flank if you can, just to stay out of the front arc if nothing else.

I'm wondering. You have both Dodonna and Dodonna's pride? How many blue dice are you throwing with it? You don't need to go through the shields if you have that ship, score one critical result on a blue dice, you can simply cancel the die results and hand your opponent a face up damage card, effectively bypassing defense tokens. Since you have Dodonna as a commander, you can pick the best of the first four face up cards. Crits in the game are far mor devastating than simply working a hull down.

Similarly for Luke, he can bypass shields... Granted he's harder to get into striking distance if your opponent knows to go after him...

It should certainly help. You're still trying to get through six hull this way, though.

A VSD that gets all of it's dice can actually one-shot a CR90, though. A Victory 1 that gets close range can do it, I think, without even caring whether the CR90 spent tokens. You've still got to flank if you can, just to stay out of the front arc if nothing else.

Absolutely.

I'd be protecting the Dodonna's Pride CR90B with whatever means that I could, including making specific choices around when to move that ship, and using other ships and obstacles to run interference. At least with your opponent turtling up, and moving at speed 1, you know roughly where the front end of the VSD is going to be pointing, even with an extra point of Yaw with navigation commands. Keep in mind that he only gets the extra point in yaw value if it comes up on the command dial, not through tokens (I don't see a navigation team).

The point is not to get a VSD down all 8 hull points, but rather inflicting crits that will severely hamper his ability, and therefore letting you win the objectives. Crits, of course, are random, but they're all frighteningly effective. Even the base "ship" crit has you drawing a second facedown card, and then flipping the original to facedown... 2 hull hits... 1/4 of a VSD's capacity. On the other hand, a crew compartment fire means that the ship can't ready defense tokens, which leaves it very vulnerable any way you look at it. I went through the damage deck when I transferred them into the card sleeves, and was wincing at almost every one of them. Since Dodonna's ability means any crit inflicted, not just the one from Dodonna's Pride, you can be selective as to which crit will screw over your opponent the most of the four cards drawn.

He had the lower points and won inititive chose to go first and chose mine field.
I will definitely change my method of playing the "Go for the objectives" more than "go for the ships/squardons" even if it means doing nothing but getting VP's.

His Tie's were always bunched out of 4 range (3 movement + 1 range firing (Yeah pre-measuring hehe)) so my chances were slim.

Need more games in I guess at not trying to fight the Empire but win objectives.

Then you were the second player. All you needed to do was avoid his turtle and you would win. Yea it is an empty victory, but it teaches him a VERY valuable lesson. (I assume you are friends.)

After losing that way once he will either play his fleet differently or let you be the first player (and you then choose the objective).

Uh, yeah. If he was turtling as first player, you win. So there's your strategy--just fly around until he comes for you.

The ballsy route would be to dive in with both Nebs at close range if you pick your positions properly, they should be able to last two rounds. Have them focus on (and shred) the TIEs. That should free up your X-Wings to make unimpeded runs on one of the VSDs. Hopefully you can get at least one Neb out of the fray and have it set up to issue squadron commands to reposition your X-wings without missing an attack. Make sure your X-Wings are spread out across arcs to minimize the VSDs anti-squadron attacks.

When you're outgunned, you have to take risks. Since they're VSD IIs you're not risking being in range of 3 black dice, so the punishment you pay for driving that close shouldn't be much more significant than dashing around at medium range.

Having the extra range on Redemption might make you inclined to stay where the attack dice are a bit more even, but they can wear you down better than you can wear them down. Be aggressive and unpredictable, and be wary of what you activate first. Pushing the CR90 out first (and feigning a different direction) lets minimize tipping your hand, as your opponent will have to pick a Vic to move, and you'll have 2nd mover advantage on it.