Are the heroes limited by the number of available fatigue tokens when upgrading thier fatigue? It seems to me there are only enough fatigue tokens (24) to allow the heroes to upgrade about 4 times total, even though there are 12 fatigue training markers.

Any help is appreciated! Thanks!

dmfergus said:

To the best of my knowledge, yes.

Big Remy said:

I agree that they are in fact limited by the number of tokens. The base game gives you 24, and RtL provided no extra tokens. Since RtL did provide plenty of health, I would have to imagine them not giving extra fatigue was not a simple oversight. I don't have any rules references available as I'm mid-move at the moment and I don't trust the pdfs to be accurate with what I have, but IIRC there is a rule that states you are limited to the number of tokens/figures/etc supplied with the game at all times.

dmfergus said:

Keep in mind that each hero can only upgrade either Fatigue OR Health and only once per campaign level at that. Granted that's still potentially more fatigue training markers in play than the fatigue tokens can support, but it's unlikely that all 12 will be in play at once.

Steve-O said:

This is very true, but I would think it likely that 5 fatigue training markers could be in play. Currently there are only enough fatigue tokens for my heroes to have 4 fatigue training markers total. I could be wrong but this just seems very low to me.

I could be mistaken, but I seem to remember reading an official post which stated that the Wound and Fatigue tokens were exempt from the use-only-what-comes-in-the-box Rule. Of course I don't have a link or referrence or anything so I'm just taking up space.

XmenDynasty said:

Wounds makes absolute sense, since it doesn't penalize one side or the other and there is no fair way to distribute wound tokens if you run out.

Fatigue, not so much.

It isn't really practically possible to run out of wound tokens. It isn't necessary to place wound tokens on unwounded monsters as you can assume they are at full health. No wounded monster should reasonably need more than 4 ones, 1 five, 1 ten, and 1 twenty-five to represent remaining health.

Sigh... my only answer is that everything else in the game is limited by tokens.. so why should fatigue be an exception?

From the GLoAQ, Kevin says the following about trait upgrades

Since there are only 4 training tokens of each type are the heroes limited in the amount of training they can purchase?
The heroes are limited to the training tokens included in the game. If one hero hogs them all, that's going to be trouble for the party.

It's that last line.... the onus is on the Hero players to balance out their upgrades so that they avoid sticky sitiuations.

Lord Foul said:

We did it once in the avatar battle. Both the heroes and I both had an unorthodox amount of conquest during the final dungeon though.

Lord Foul said:

Oh yes, it is! AoD quest 3: In this you have six glyphs that can be attacked, each taking up to 20 wounds until destroyed, so if you attack them all and damage them for 19 wounds, you would need 114 wounds total, plus the wounds that the heros and other wounded monsters need.

If I hadn´t supplemented the RtL wounds, I definitely would have run out of wound tokens in this quest (as actually happened with Burn tokens in this quest - the heros had to choose which monsters were affected, I did not allow for replacement tokens).

The players would just about have to go out of their way to intentionally use up all the tokens, thus is is "practically" impossible. Burn tokens, on the other hand, I run out of all the time.

The real problem about a hard limit is the RtL final battle. If damage stops being taken after you run out of wounds tokens, the final battle could become a stalemate. Since there is no upper limit to the amount of health that the avatar could have, you can never be sure of having enough wound tokens (and against a heavy hitting party with an avatar like the spider queen, you'd need HP at such massively high levels).

Since a final battle stalemate seems highly unintended, I'd argue that it shows that there are times when you need to be able to use substitute wound tokens. Therefor the token limit is not absolute. Fatigue tokens serve a similar purpose to health tokens, so it would be reasonable to use substitutes for them as well when needed.

As further evidence: there are 12 fatigue upgrades, and a skill that gives +2 fatigue. Even if your party starts the game with every hero having a 0 fatigue score, the party could get higher than the 24 token limit by gold level.

I never seen it even come close to running out of wound tokens in RtL with the 25 and 10 wounds counters they have in there.

I'm in the "you are limited by the tokens that came with the game" camp, especially for fatigue.

Badend said:

They may serve a similar purpose, but the condition only effects one side, which makes it a resource management game. Which the makers have stated RtL is. The heroes must decide the best course of action when distributing their limited fatigue supply.

As for having 12 upgrade tokens, that is true, however, this gives the heroes flexibility as to when to buy their fatigue upgrades.

If all four want it at copper, they can, they just can't do it any more.

Oboewan said:

In fairness, that answer was given before the release of RtL and was referring specifically to the black die training upgrades from the base game. At the time, those were the only "training upgrades" that existed, so neither the questioner nor Kevin felt the need to be more specific. Not that I particularly disagree with your assessment, I'm just saying this question wasn't posed (or answered) with health or fatigue training tokens in mind.

Am I the only one that uses scratch paper to track wounds on things like the glyphs in the Hold the Line quest? Using tokens is a pain and they get in the way.