Need Advice on potential Heretical Munchkin Player

By Sun Stealer, in Dark Heresy Gamemasters

My fellow GM's, I need advice. I'll start from the beginning: Other than a few 1v1 practice tries that quickly fell apart for lack of players, I'm a noob GM and will be GM'ing my first true campaign with more than one player(all noobs) this week. I'm fairly confident I have my stuff together from observing other GMs, but there is one player I can see trouble coming from and I want to be able to head it off before it can become a problem. One of my players is having trouble understanding his motivation if you will. First, he expressed interest in overthrowing the God-Emperor of Mankind. I explained to him that: 1) attempting to kill the Messiah would be a bad idea, 2) He would never get past the Custodes, 3) the Calixis Setting is nowhere near Terra, and 4) that in any event, The Emperor has been in a catatonic state, and that the Imperium is run by the High Lords of Terra.(Perhaps I should have called them by their alternative name, instead.) Now he wants to overthrow the High Lords of Terra.

I explained to him that yes, the Imperium is the worst form of government, that it combines the worst elements of Feudalism, Absolute Monarchy, Nazism, and Communism, but that it is the only thing that stands between Humanity and extinction. He tells me, "then it is better for humanity to die out then turn evil." I'm a friend of players of a radical bent, but even Istvaanians want the Imperium to prosper. I have a free-wheeling philosophy, but this would be a game breaker. The game mechanics don't even make it possible to play a heretic, How would that even play out: "player: I swear eternal warfare against the Imperium. GM: you role a 100 corruption points, you're character is now an npc villain. Player 2: I attack him. Player 3: Ditto. GM: your fellow players turn you former character into chunky salsa. Would you like to write up another character."

Finally, I made it clear in no uncertain terms that even expressing seditious thoughts IN-CHARACTER was a suicidal action that would likely get him declared excommunicate traitoris. He seemed to back down from his crunchy quest to destroy the Imperium after that. But if I know my brother, he will simply act more covertly to subvert the game. I can always use a bolt of lightning on a clear day, but I don't want to use that except as a last resort. How do I keep the game from being totally derailed in the first place? WHAT SHOULD I DO?

It seems the first and probably best option would simply be talking to him, explain the universe, how that would be wrong. And secondly, how the hell would he manage that, seriously? If he shows any intent like such that is noticed, it would probably be instant death in-game. I seriously don't see how he got the idea for that. Has he played any other RPGs? Played W40k, or knows the universe? Is he naturally power-hungry?

I don't reckon it's an issue of what is expected of a PC as much as possibly a misunderstanding of the scope. If this player is new to 40k, perhaps when you gave him the Big Picture, he latched onto it and now the Big Picture is the only picture he sees. You need to ground him in a more realistic but much smaller picture. Make sure he knows that his character and all PC's, most all NPC's, and just about everyone else are all itty-bitty little fish not in a bigger pond but in the waters of a freaking Ocean Planet that has massive things miles long with twenty rows of teeth who's entire diet subsists of itty-bitty little fish. If he can survive in those waters long enough and learn from his experiences, then maybe, just maybe, his character might grow a few extra rows of teeth, add on a few tones, and begin swimming with the supper big supper scary fish... but that will take a lot of work and no small amount of luck to make it to that level.

In the mean time, if he is bothered by the Imperium's policies and ways or wants a character that will make a positive impact on the innocent people of the far future, that is not only doable but should be commended. He doesn't have to overthrow the Emprah to make a difference. All he needs to do is help little Psally get form 38-b/23/6 filled out so her mother can be buried properly, or keep the gangs from taking Jerald, or sneak R'key out and away from the Tranch front lines and to a little known frontier world to be with his new bride. If doing any of the above would fly in the face of his duty, all the better... that is the stuff moral type dellemas (or how ever the hell that damned word is spelled) are made of and they are pure rp gold!

If he's not interested in making a difference and was just latching onto the overthrow of old skull-head as a means to grab a hold of the setting and be the Big Man, explain the fish and let him know there will be plenty of time for the big fish things assuming his character lives that long, but he will start off sucking algae from the rocks at the bottom.

Having anti-Imperial sentiments isn't an automatic death sentence. It can be, but there are countless Inquisitors out there that make good use of heretics, recidivists, irreligious scum, and all forms of other unworthy individual. Nothing saying his inquisitor wouldn't be able to use a character who has some unorthodox views on the Emperor. Just make sure the player knows the scope. If you feel he'll be a problem and hamper the stories you wish to tell (after informing him of the stories you wish to tell) don't let him play. If he's a player, you will have to entertain his wants and desires just as much as the other players.

I'd sit down and talk to him- it sound like he isn't coming at this from the point of view of someone within the setting. As far as pretty much everybody raised within the Imperium is concerned, the way of the Imperium is 'good', and divergence from that norm is 'evil'. Admittedly, much of it looks 'bad' when considered from a 'modern', 'Western' perspective, but that very perspective already has its' own bias towards liberalism and individuality, and a number of other, perfectly valid world-views are generally considered 'evil'. Ask him whether, say, Leninism is 'evil', or anarchism?
They're simply world-views and political models different than our current one. Once you understand the core dynamic behind them, they no longer seem 'evil', simply different (although their application may still be 'bad', either as a result of people's resistance to it, or because the people implementing it are, well, people, and hence corruptible).

The driving principle behind the Imperium is not Good-and-Evil moralism, nor a (deliberately) soul-destroying grab for power and control, but for survival. The Emperor was in the middle of preparing Humanity for the crisis of its' evolution to the next level (both as a society and as a species) when he was interrupted by the Heresy. Yes, that plan did call for a period of (relative) conformity, and required harsh controls, but those were intended as temporary measures. Since the Big E was trapped on the Throne, he wasn't able to complete his plans, nor vouchsafe them to anyone else, and in the panic (and to maintain stability), the Imperium got trapped at the harsh authoritarian end of the spectrum. The fear was that if the Imperium was allowed to crumble and tear itself apart then Humanity would not survive, so the idea was to implement harsh controls to keep it safe.

While the Imperium is corrupt, and brutal, it is necessarily so. If his character is going to get all worked up about the 'evils' of the Imperium, advise him to look at ways that the burden could be lifted without the gigadeaths implicit in tearing it all down. The other option is to get him to look at the Recongregators (an Inquisitorial faction who believe that change and strife are the best ways to strengthen humanity- weed out the weak, and forge the strong into something better by making it all collapse and moulding the survivors to a better pattern), although warn him that they are very much Radicals, and barely tolerated (providing they don't do anything blatant and have people realise), and even then only at Inquisitorial rank is admitting to the belief (privately) not an automatic warrant for arrest/execution.
Of course, not every Inquisitor (or other agent of Imperial authority) will act on that, but without the backing and patronage of a powerful personage, most of them will...

In any case, definitely warn him about being a very, very small fish in an enormous ocean.

Sun Stealer said:

My fellow GM's, I need advice. I'll start from the beginning: Other than a few 1v1 practice tries that quickly fell apart for lack of players, I'm a noob GM and will be GM'ing my first true campaign with more than one player(all noobs) this week. I'm fairly confident I have my stuff together from observing other GMs, but there is one player I can see trouble coming from and I want to be able to head it off before it can become a problem. One of my players is having trouble understanding his motivation if you will. First, he expressed interest in overthrowing the God-Emperor of Mankind. I explained to him that: 1) attempting to kill the Messiah would be a bad idea, 2) He would never get past the Custodes, 3) the Calixis Setting is nowhere near Terra, and 4) that in any event, The Emperor has been in a catatonic state, and that the Imperium is run by the High Lords of Terra.(Perhaps I should have called them by their alternative name, instead.) Now he wants to overthrow the High Lords of Terra.

I explained to him that yes, the Imperium is the worst form of government, that it combines the worst elements of Feudalism, Absolute Monarchy, Nazism, and Communism, but that it is the only thing that stands between Humanity and extinction. He tells me, "then it is better for humanity to die out then turn evil." I'm a friend of players of a radical bent, but even Istvaanians want the Imperium to prosper. I have a free-wheeling philosophy, but this would be a game breaker. The game mechanics don't even make it possible to play a heretic, How would that even play out: "player: I swear eternal warfare against the Imperium. GM: you role a 100 corruption points, you're character is now an npc villain. Player 2: I attack him. Player 3: Ditto. GM: your fellow players turn you former character into chunky salsa. Would you like to write up another character."

Finally, I made it clear in no uncertain terms that even expressing seditious thoughts IN-CHARACTER was a suicidal action that would likely get him declared excommunicate traitoris. He seemed to back down from his crunchy quest to destroy the Imperium after that. But if I know my brother, he will simply act more covertly to subvert the game. I can always use a bolt of lightning on a clear day, but I don't want to use that except as a last resort. How do I keep the game from being totally derailed in the first place? WHAT SHOULD I DO?

Simple. Tell the player that he's meta-gaming. He's projecting his values onto his character's thought process, who has been raised since birth to think this is a good and just world. Explain to him that metagaming of this variety will result in a ruined game for everyone, and indeed an end to the game, and ask him if this is what he really wants. It's difficult, really difficult, to get to the point where even experienced players don't metagame. It doesn't just mean "I know what's behind that door so I won't open it", it also means things like this.

Also, your encounter would go something like this:

Twink: "I swear that I will overthrow the Emperor and put an end to this tyrrany!"

Players 2, 3, and 4: "... .... .... " *Insert sound of copius weapons going off until Twink drops dead*

Player 2: "Friend Computer.... errr... I mean Lord Inquisitor, we have brought you the corpse of a commie mutant traitor in our midst. Do we now advance to Orange security clearance?"

Seriously, if your brother is like this, go buy Paranoia and play that instead. It's right up his alley, and it gives him 6 clones so that he lasts out the session.

heh.. If he thinks the Imperium is evil, simply show him what they are up against. Sadistic Dark eldar raiders, whom kill and torture for fun, Orcs leave nothing but trails of utter destruction and I doubt orcs care about civilians (siviljuns?? Who dat ?) our favorite arch enemy chaos (who he will be joining soon if he does not change his ideas) who butcher innocents for their dark gods. Yes the Imperium is ugly, but it needs to be ugly to survive.

But you could try and explain to the (troublesome) player that HE might find that the Imperium is a nasty, evil place but that his CHARACTER grew up in it and to the character it's just another day in the meat grinder. What the player thinks about the imperium is irrelevant, his character will not be shocked by everyday life.

That's why they call it role-playing. =)

Show him the detail of what the Imperium is up against and ask him to come up with a government structure that would be better for its human citizens. Then tell him why it would fail.

Are you going to be taking the party through Illumination (the mission in the core rulebook) ?

If so, ask him to play a smart heretic and hold off any heretical actions until he knows what is going on. Then see if he can justify actions other than fighting for the imperium once the crow father has shown up.

Come to think of it, he could probably get through Illumination and the missions in Purge the Unclean if he plays a character that cares for humanity as a whole, even if his character doesn't like the Imperium, as long as he doesn't act rashly. The one where this looks least likley is Shades on the Twilight, though his hesitation should lessen once he knows that he is fighting the serated query.

Several of my players do this as well, as though they themselves had travelled to the future and had guns and swords. Explain to him that, were the Emperor to wake up from his near death state, he wouldn't be pleased with how the Imperium was rolling. Also, even Radicals want the emperor to live. They're just using chaos to fight chaos.

Serialkilla said:

heh.. If he thinks the Imperium is evil, simply show him what they are up against. Sadistic Dark eldar raiders, whom kill and torture for fun, Orcs leave nothing but trails of utter destruction and I doubt orcs care about civilians (siviljuns?? Who dat ?) our favorite arch enemy chaos (who he will be joining soon if he does not change his ideas) who butcher innocents for their dark gods. Yes the Imperium is ugly, but it needs to be ugly to survive.

But you could try and explain to the (troublesome) player that HE might find that the Imperium is a nasty, evil place but that his CHARACTER grew up in it and to the character it's just another day in the meat grinder. What the player thinks about the imperium is irrelevant, his character will not be shocked by everyday life.

That's why they call it role-playing. =)

Nice, I like that. What's the quote from Ridick... "Sometimes evil has to be fought with another kind of Evil." Thats a good way to view the Imperium I think.

And Sun Stealer, I feel your pain man. I've had the same thing and I found sitting down and having a nice chat with them worked out but at the same time you have to be ready to draw the immovable line of I'm the GM. It always sucks when you have a group of usual players and one of them starts rubbing against the new game starting. Just don't bow to him because... well you can't really in this aspect unless you want to try and run a heretical campaign, which may be cool... probably would be heh ;D

In the game I've been running I had 2 players who knew the universe... slightly, but weren't well versed in it and had the same problem of scope. They got hung up on the big picture and it took some head banging to get them into the small fish bowl they live in, but once there they took to it naturally like people do. Once you start he will hopefully settle into his nice small little pond, especially if he is a char who would have no real knowledge of the Imperium's inner workings ;D No Common Lore Imperium for him!

'

If you didn't mind then his character could in fact feel this way. The main thing is making him smart about going about it. The main problem with this line of thinking is that it makes the person susptable to chaos. If he was willing you could have him actually anti-Imperial but every time he acted in a way that went against the Imperium it made him suseptable to corruption. Make him take secret corruption tests and not let the other players know that he is slipping towards chaos. He could make use of notes to do things behind the players back not to hurt them but the Imperium as a whole. Or he could keep his radical thoughts to himself until he was much higher up the foodchain. Perhaps being as loyal and compitent as possible to gain the recognition of his Inquisitor and eventually to gain the Rosette. This could bring in one of the Imperiums favourite pasttimes Hypocracy, doing what he hates in order to combat it. The character himself may even lose sight of his origional goal as it becomes simply a lust for power. Revelations about the Emperor and the necessity of the Imperium could be build into your scenarios in order to try and sway the characters mind, maybe they find first generation texts written by Sebastion Thor in the collection of a Heretical Scintillan Noble which writes elequently on the necessity of faith in the Imperium and the necessity of the Imperium for mankind (or if you run PtU then put second generation texts in the Strophes study that he invites the player to read and if he does well enough even offers to give it to him in grattitude).

Only let him do this if he is willing to sit down with you before the game and explain how he is going to go about it so that you can tailor your stories appropriately. Also make it clear that this would be a one time only offer, if the character died he would have to play the new one according to how you are playing the game (i.e. Puritan or Radical or whatever). Dont do it if you are not comfortable with it either as there is a good chance that the character would backstab the other players to get his way which could be an interesting twist for the game but at the same time increadably frustrating for the other players. If you run Purge the Unclean this character seems like his ideology fits the Serrated Query, you should give him the chance to join them and act as their mole within the Inquisition or simply to leave and become an enemy.

You can make this character work but it will requier alot of effort for both you and the other player and I would only recomend it if you both feel up to the task and he is willing to roleplay it effectively. If he is just being difficult then he doesnt deserve the chance to play this type of character but if he puts the effort in then it could add another layer of depth and complexity to the game to make the subplot worthwhile.

One last thing is that if he wants this type of character then he should probably have to start out as a scum, probably an Underhiver who is disillusioned with the Imperium. Any other character makes too little sense and would really just be metagaming to be difficult.

Kaihlik

Sun Stealer said:

My fellow GM's, I need advice. I'll start from the beginning: Other than a few 1v1 practice tries that quickly fell apart for lack of players, I'm a noob GM and will be GM'ing my first true campaign with more than one player(all noobs) this week. I'm fairly confident I have my stuff together from observing other GMs, but there is one player I can see trouble coming from and I want to be able to head it off before it can become a problem. One of my players is having trouble understanding his motivation if you will. First, he expressed interest in overthrowing the God-Emperor of Mankind. I explained to him that: 1) attempting to kill the Messiah would be a bad idea, 2) He would never get past the Custodes, 3) the Calixis Setting is nowhere near Terra, and 4) that in any event, The Emperor has been in a catatonic state, and that the Imperium is run by the High Lords of Terra.(Perhaps I should have called them by their alternative name, instead.) Now he wants to overthrow the High Lords of Terra.

I explained to him that yes, the Imperium is the worst form of government, that it combines the worst elements of Feudalism, Absolute Monarchy, Nazism, and Communism, but that it is the only thing that stands between Humanity and extinction. He tells me, "then it is better for humanity to die out then turn evil." I'm a friend of players of a radical bent, but even Istvaanians want the Imperium to prosper. I have a free-wheeling philosophy, but this would be a game breaker. The game mechanics don't even make it possible to play a heretic, How would that even play out: "player: I swear eternal warfare against the Imperium. GM: you role a 100 corruption points, you're character is now an npc villain. Player 2: I attack him. Player 3: Ditto. GM: your fellow players turn you former character into chunky salsa. Would you like to write up another character."

Finally, I made it clear in no uncertain terms that even expressing seditious thoughts IN-CHARACTER was a suicidal action that would likely get him declared excommunicate traitoris. He seemed to back down from his crunchy quest to destroy the Imperium after that. But if I know my brother, he will simply act more covertly to subvert the game. I can always use a bolt of lightning on a clear day, but I don't want to use that except as a last resort. How do I keep the game from being totally derailed in the first place? WHAT SHOULD I DO?

Take him aside and explain ideas like being an istvaanian, a recongregator, or even a heretical agent (albeit well-intentioned). Explain that he could very well sabotage their own operations to get "good" results, where everyone is happy. Also explain if his clandestine activies are uncovered, that the authorities, including the other players, are honour bound to kill him, and that should he play like that, it's totally cool- could make for some really great games- but to expect to be rolling up a new character.

Also, the game easily allows you to play heretics, no problem.

Corruption should only be given to players who are subjected to DIRECT EXPOSURE TO THE WARP. Absolutely NOTHING else. Any source you have that involves meteing out corruption points merely for being immoral, is in fact incorrect (yes, even the official DH adventures are actually wrong on this, trust me)

Having a player who believes honestly that there is a better way could be the best thing that happened to your game, if you play your cards right.

Hmm... having this player role-play a character like that would be tough. Acolytes, at least in my game, go through some SERIOUS psy-screening, interrogation, and cleansing before being able to join the inquisition. A character with heretical thoughts like those would be quickly weeded out by the inquisitor and relieved of his head. Well, at least until the Radical's Handbook comes out.

Other folks here have the right idea though. Talk to him, tell him about the setting, and explain to him WHY its the way it is. I had a similar problem with a player in my group (kind of a hippie type in rl) and he was horrified by the Imperium's callousness towards its own people. He wanted to start a planetary revolution, to free the workers, and to promote mutant rights. The other PCs, as he was mentioning this (in private) kind of took a step back from him and readied their weapons :) However, after a brief chat reminding him to not let his rl views cloud his character's views, he was pretty much back on track.

If he's still totally against RPing a fictional character in a fictional universe without implementing his rl beliefs, this may not be the game for him.

Definitely don't hand out corruption points. If everyone who did immoral or heretical non-warp-related stuff in this game got corruption points for it, it'd be all mutants and chaos worshippers. No chaos/warp = no corruption.

-Thulis

I say, honestly? Work with it and him. His view is extremely radical, and not one that goes unexpressed through several of the Black Library 40k novels about the injustice and bloody handed terror of the Imperium. Good men CAN make a difference, but as it is the setting, most of that time, that difference leads to the good man's death and martyr-dom. Let him think he'll start working against the High Lords in secret, then show him just what the Imperium is up against. When he says in his head, "I'll join Chaos to overthrow the corrupt imperium and help mankind!", show him the worst of a Slaaneshi cult. Show him the Good of the Imperium, maybe an Imperial Fist laying down his life for the acolytes because it's his duty to protect the Imperium and its people. Go the next step, put them beside the Imperial Guard and make him watch a Commissar execute someone for cowardice in the line of duty, then show him a town that was overrun by their enemy, hell on eath style. If he has no true grasp of the size of the setting, have other players and npcs drop stories, the Blood Reign of Vandire and his eventual overthrow by the Daughters of the Emperor and Saint Sebastian Thor.

He doesn't understand WHY the Imperium has to work the way it does, it's your duty as GM to show him, and if he goes over the edge into true Heresy (wanting to still kill/replace the Emperor, for BAD reasons, remember, there is a sect of radicals out there who believe if the Emperor were to be allowed to die, he'd be reborn and able to take his place at the forefront of humanity again and lead the Imperium into a golden age), then let your players do what they have to do and let the dice fall where they may. There's no better, more hated villain, than a corrupted party member.

Thanks everyone, I think I know what I'm going to do. MWUHAHAHA

Sun Stealer said:

Thanks everyone, I think I know what I'm going to do. MWUHAHAHA

I'm curious. How are you planning to handle him?

Sun Stealer said:

I explained to him that yes, the Imperium is the worst form of government, that it combines the worst elements of Feudalism, Absolute Monarchy, Nazism, and Communism, but that it is the only thing that stands between Humanity and extinction. He tells me, "then it is better for humanity to die out then turn evil."

Your friend/player/brother/whomever is being to the contrary and trying to be disruptive on further thought. This is such a naieve and short sided statement (if one actually believes this) that I'd laugh if someone told me that. I then would tell them I'd get a pistol and they could start extinguising humanity with themselves, since humanity has been evil pretty much consistently throughout history, with only moments of altruisim to keep us going.

The guy either sounds extremely young, extremely contrary, or extremely naieve.

Now with that maniacle laughter y'gotta fill us in! ;)

Sun Stealer said:

My fellow GM's, I need advice. I'll start from the beginning: Other than a few 1v1 practice tries that quickly fell apart for lack of players, I'm a noob GM and will be GM'ing my first true campaign with more than one player(all noobs) this week. I'm fairly confident I have my stuff together from observing other GMs, but there is one player I can see trouble coming from and I want to be able to head it off before it can become a problem. One of my players is having trouble understanding his motivation if you will. First, he expressed interest in overthrowing the God-Emperor of Mankind. I explained to him that: 1) attempting to kill the Messiah would be a bad idea, 2) He would never get past the Custodes, 3) the Calixis Setting is nowhere near Terra, and 4) that in any event, The Emperor has been in a catatonic state, and that the Imperium is run by the High Lords of Terra.(Perhaps I should have called them by their alternative name, instead.) Now he wants to overthrow the High Lords of Terra.

I explained to him that yes, the Imperium is the worst form of government, that it combines the worst elements of Feudalism, Absolute Monarchy, Nazism, and Communism, but that it is the only thing that stands between Humanity and extinction. He tells me, "then it is better for humanity to die out then turn evil." I'm a friend of players of a radical bent, but even Istvaanians want the Imperium to prosper. I have a free-wheeling philosophy, but this would be a game breaker. The game mechanics don't even make it possible to play a heretic, How would that even play out: "player: I swear eternal warfare against the Imperium. GM: you role a 100 corruption points, you're character is now an npc villain. Player 2: I attack him. Player 3: Ditto. GM: your fellow players turn you former character into chunky salsa. Would you like to write up another character."

Finally, I made it clear in no uncertain terms that even expressing seditious thoughts IN-CHARACTER was a suicidal action that would likely get him declared excommunicate traitoris. He seemed to back down from his crunchy quest to destroy the Imperium after that. But if I know my brother, he will simply act more covertly to subvert the game. I can always use a bolt of lightning on a clear day, but I don't want to use that except as a last resort. How do I keep the game from being totally derailed in the first place? WHAT SHOULD I DO?

actually having a player who is corrupted to a point where he would betray the others (without chaos corruption) is really intresting. All of my players puritans, which eventually gets really boring(although its let me crate encounters with other inquisitors and alcolytes). you should be blessed, my problem player is a complete retard, he once purposely made himself barf in a battle!

Farax Isan said:

Sun Stealer said:

My fellow GM's, I need advice. I'll start from the beginning: Other than a few 1v1 practice tries that quickly fell apart for lack of players, I'm a noob GM and will be GM'ing my first true campaign with more than one player(all noobs) this week. I'm fairly confident I have my stuff together from observing other GMs, but there is one player I can see trouble coming from and I want to be able to head it off before it can become a problem. One of my players is having trouble understanding his motivation if you will. First, he expressed interest in overthrowing the God-Emperor of Mankind. I explained to him that: 1) attempting to kill the Messiah would be a bad idea, 2) He would never get past the Custodes, 3) the Calixis Setting is nowhere near Terra, and 4) that in any event, The Emperor has been in a catatonic state, and that the Imperium is run by the High Lords of Terra.(Perhaps I should have called them by their alternative name, instead.) Now he wants to overthrow the High Lords of Terra.

I explained to him that yes, the Imperium is the worst form of government, that it combines the worst elements of Feudalism, Absolute Monarchy, Nazism, and Communism, but that it is the only thing that stands between Humanity and extinction. He tells me, "then it is better for humanity to die out then turn evil." I'm a friend of players of a radical bent, but even Istvaanians want the Imperium to prosper. I have a free-wheeling philosophy, but this would be a game breaker. The game mechanics don't even make it possible to play a heretic, How would that even play out: "player: I swear eternal warfare against the Imperium. GM: you role a 100 corruption points, you're character is now an npc villain. Player 2: I attack him. Player 3: Ditto. GM: your fellow players turn you former character into chunky salsa. Would you like to write up another character."

Finally, I made it clear in no uncertain terms that even expressing seditious thoughts IN-CHARACTER was a suicidal action that would likely get him declared excommunicate traitoris. He seemed to back down from his crunchy quest to destroy the Imperium after that. But if I know my brother, he will simply act more covertly to subvert the game. I can always use a bolt of lightning on a clear day, but I don't want to use that except as a last resort. How do I keep the game from being totally derailed in the first place? WHAT SHOULD I DO?

actually having a player who is corrupted to a point where he would betray the others (without chaos corruption) is really intresting. All of my players puritans, which eventually gets really boring(although its let me crate encounters with other inquisitors and alcolytes). you should be blessed, my problem player is a complete retard, he once purposely made himself barf in a battle!

I'm really wary of individuals who want to completely destroy party cohesion. It's one thing to have varying viewpoints on how to go about one's work, and there's an entire spectrum there. It's another entirely to set a party member in what is, essentially, dead opposition to the rest of the party. At best, you'll have a dead PC, and an annoyed player. At worst, you can smash a game to pieces and never recover without a full reboot.

Seriously, if this guy is dead set in favor of this, sit down and talk with the party as a group, out of character, about this decision. Ask if it's okay with everyone to eventually have to deal with total party meltdown. You don't have to go into details, part of the joy of roleplaying is watching characters develop that you aren't playing, but it takes a mature group to be cool with where this one player is going. In Vampire games, I'd often flat out state if I was running a story where inner-party PC kills were going to be allowed or not for this very reason. I'd invariably get one guy who would think it would be a lot of fun to completely screw my carefully written story up by killing everyone invovled in it or doing something else in total opposition to party cohesiveness. Often if I let it run that way, the story would be completely cast aside as I played referree between the problem player and everyone else. Invariably, when the problem player messes up enough, they'd run to me for storyteller fiat protection, and find me an unsympathetic mediator. Then they'd get angry and quit.

If I'm in the mood to run a no-holds-barred game, I emphasize less on a pre-determined story, because enough fur will fly that I'll be plenty busy keeping everything running inside this conflict.

In this case, the group may be cool with this. If not, I think that this falls under "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one", and the problem player needs to play ball, at least for now.

Here is what I have in store for him, integrating both the fine advice of my fellow gm's and my own sinister ways:

*I've come to the conclusion that whatever happens, every session is going to be a battle of wits between him and myself. Fortunately, I know much more about the setting, he is largely ignorant of it, and I'm a bigger magnificent b*st**d than him, so our xanatos duel will be heavily skewed in my favor.

*Show him what the opposition does for fun just to show him what a d**k move going against the Imperium would be. He's going to be defending a lot of refugee camps and children's hospitals from slaneshi cultists.

*Thank you whoever suggested this, as I'm too lazy to go back and check, but I'm going to show them the honorable side of the Imperium.

*I'm working on converting Metal Gear Solid 2 into a campaign just to screw with him and then declare it ALL A DREAM. (I will save this punishment if he becomes particularly irksome.)

*I've been working on this for a while anyway, but a fan supplement of democracies in the Imperium. Admittedly, while much better than Fenksworld, my inspirations were the Republic of Venice, the Bible Commonwealths of colonial New England (except meaner), the Islamic Republic of Iran (except more democratic), Jacobin France, and the Soviet Union. (to explain why this matters, part of his contradictory justification for overthrowing the Imperium is to replace it with a galactic democracy)

*A friendly encounter with the tau. Stage 1: Idealistic first impressions, Stage 2: Where did all these concentration camps come from?

*A pleasant sleep-over with the Dark Eldar.

*I've come up with an assortment of cults to mock/show him the error of his warped morality including the Death-Touched, a cult that is sort of a mixture of Death Note and Unbreakable. Anyone they touch, they will instantly learn all of their sins(according to what the target believes was wrong, and afterwards can choose to kill them at any time, at which point they learn all the good things the target did in life). Another cult I came up with are the Wolves of Retribtuion, a group of deranged, genocidal, ex-arbiters who believe that everyone in the Imperium is guilty of something and therefore deserving of death. Their ultimate goal is to "bring the Emperor to justice". Of course, the only ones they see as good are themselves because "they are the good guys and everyone else is evil." I wonder how my heretical munchkin will respond once he witnesses them hold show trials for toddlers.

*Try to turn the players against him (because I know he will try to do the same.)

*I'm going to go with the tried-and-true give the players all the rope they need to hang themselves method. All actions have natural consequences, so he can play his heretical games (after all his character does come from a backwater world that was only recently reintegrated into the Imperium, so his bizarre ethics are not out of character, which is why I'm alllowing it), if he can evade and survive all the witch-hunts, informants, persuasion rolls, fellow acolytes, xp-hungry players, his Inquisitor, other inquisitors, vindicare assassins, culexis assassins, Necromudan Assassions, storm troopers, corruption rolls, angry villagers with pitchforks and torches, other heretics, the tentacles of the Inquisition, and all the other horrible things in the 40K verse. I'm a fair man, if he is lucky (and smart enough) he may even manage to lure npcs or even fellow pc's into his foul heresy, his cult might even grow to planetary size, but the Imperium is nothing if not vast and the =][= ever watchful, and the hammer will fall some day. One wrong move and it's reroll another character. After all, nobody expects the Imperial Inquisition. Those are the exact words I will tell him on the Day of Comeuppance. Perhaps I should bring a doomsday clock to show how much I think his character has left. You might think I'm being a little harsh, but after I explained to him that not only would the fall of the Imperium result in humanity's extinction, but in countless trillions being violated(I used a different, more apt word), eaten, and tortured for all eternity, he told me flat out that was just punishment for evildoers, so frankly, so I'm going sinners-in-the-hands-of-an-angry-gm mode on him. I'll try not to totally ruin the gaming experience for him, but oh-ho-ho, is his character going to get it. Mwu Ha Ha!!

Thanks for all the help guys, if you have any other ideas I can add on top of these, let me hear them.

Sorry, I forgot to quote Brother Hostower's latest comment, which my latest post was a reply to.

Sun Stealer said:

I explained to him that yes, the Imperium is the worst form of government, that it combines the worst elements of Feudalism, Absolute Monarchy, Nazism, and Communism, but that it is the only thing that stands between Humanity and extinction. He tells me, "then it is better for humanity to die out then turn evil." I'm a friend of players of a radical bent, but even Istvaanians want the Imperium to prosper. I have a free-wheeling philosophy, but this would be a game breaker. The game mechanics don't even make it possible to play a heretic, How would that even play out: "player: I swear eternal warfare against the Imperium. GM: you role a 100 corruption points, you're character is now an npc villain. Player 2: I attack him. Player 3: Ditto. GM: your fellow players turn you former character into chunky salsa. Would you like to write up another character."

The game do support playing heretical characters. You dont get corruptuion points for wanting to destroy the Imperium of man, you get corruption points for dabbling with the warp too much. Corruption points is like radiation sickness if the warp was nuclear fallout. And although wanting to destroy the Imperium might be considered "bad in the extreme" by many of the Imperiums officials, and although the Chaos gods might highly approve of such thinking it doesn't necessarily mean that the character have to acquire corruption points.

It's not a gamebreaker to play a heretical PC in Dark Heresy. Sure it would entail that the PC will have to be clever in evading being found out, with the danger of the Inquisition burning his or her sorry ass hanging over him/her constantly. But calling it a gamebreaker seems to indicate more that you as a GM simply do not wish to handle that avenue of roleplay. And although that is your prerogative, don't you think it would be more fun if you didn't keep your players in such a tight leash? Just because you are the GM it doesn't necessarily mean you have to think and feel exactly like your player's Inquisitor...

The Imperium is evil. It is unnecessarily cruel, exploitative, ignorant, bigoted, and brutal. It is a monstrous, twisted parody of the golden age the Emperor wanted for mankind and the glories of pre-Heresy society.

It is also mankind's shield against the horrors of the universe. There are parts of the Imperium that are well governed and most of the citizens enjoy good living conditions. The religious bigotry and zeal which leads to witch hunts and persecutions also produces selfless acts of faith.

Nudge him towards Recongregationism if the big picture doesn't change his attitude.

Cynical Cat said:

The Imperium is evil. It is unnecessarily cruel, exploitative, ignorant, bigoted, and brutal. It is a monstrous, twisted parody of the golden age the Emperor wanted for mankind and the glories of pre-Heresy society.

It is also mankind's shield against the horrors of the universe. There are parts of the Imperium that are well governed and most of the citizens enjoy good living conditions. The religious bigotry and zeal which leads to witch hunts and persecutions also produces selfless acts of faith.

Nudge him towards Recongregationism if the big picture doesn't change his attitude.

Uhm, I don't know what you consider being "good living conditions", but I wouldn't go so far as saying that "most citizens" enjoy them. From the many descriptions it seems like most citizens aither have to live in almost complete lawlessness, or they have to live under little better than slave-like conditions, where enjoying three meals a day, clean air to breathe and access to clean water is NO guarantee what so ever.

"Good living conditions" for me is the conditions of most western industrialized nations. Sure I am aware that I enjoy many luxuries that I probably don't "need" to survive, but then again would you really call "survivable" conditions "good"?

I know I wouldn't. "Good" means to be able to eat food, not just to survive, but because it tastes good. Not having to settle for acetone-tasting corpse starch. "Good" means to be able to enjoy some fine but still affordable whisky once in a while, not having to settle for moonshine made from fermented engine cooling agents. "Good" means being able to breathe clean air that doesn't smell of flatulence and making me cough everyonce in awhile due to pollutions and being recycled way too many times already.

Sure I could probably survive and possibly thrive, even without these "necessities". But that still wouldn't make the living conditions "good", it would only make them "survivable". Personally I prefer to live, not just survive, but if not given a choice then I will have to settle for the latter of course.

But then again, thats just me. gui%C3%B1o.gif

Cynical Cat said:

The Imperium is evil. It is unnecessarily cruel, exploitative, ignorant, bigoted, and brutal. It is a monstrous, twisted parody of the golden age the Emperor wanted for mankind and the glories of pre-Heresy society.

It is also mankind's shield against the horrors of the universe. There are parts of the Imperium that are well governed and most of the citizens enjoy good living conditions. The religious bigotry and zeal which leads to witch hunts and persecutions also produces selfless acts of faith.

This doesn't quite click for me. How is the Imperium:

Evil? Define evil, and show how the Imperium qualifies under said definition.

Exploitative beyond the current first-world powers of the real world?

Bigoted? They just hate alien species that, for millenia, have shown humanity countless reasons to distrust and hate them (orks ravage, eldar raid and pirate, and the rest get much worse). They also are a theocracy, but given that nearly every official standard of measure for what heresy is, is rooted in something that had resulted in chaos corruption in the past, you can't blame them for being paranoid about such things.

I will go with ignorant, though this is really just over-protectionism of its people from the things that can't be unseen, and the brutal, as it's a brutal galaxy. Cruel... well, I don't know, in parts they certainly are, but given the situation it's understandable, if not justified.