Aureus said:

Evil you ask?

Well, what about a few thousan years ago starting their "crusade" against the rest of the galaxy that pretty much meant a nazi-esque war of extermination of pretty much every other sentient species. The parole was: "It doesn't matter if you're an ork, eldar, or idealistic, goody-two shoes Tau. We're gonna kill the lot of you for the crime of not being human and for having the nerve to occupy your own planets that we wish to conquer and bleed dry of their resources! Now have the good decency to shut up and drop dead! We're human and it is our "destiny" to own the entire galaxy! There simply isn't enough room for all of us, and we humans are superior to everyone else!"

Not that it doesn't exist alien species who have the same mindset, but it doesn't make the mindset excusable. So yes, the Imperium of Man is pretty much evil, although just one form of evil among several other evils, but evil nontheless.

The only "good" species in the WH40K universe would probably be the Tau. Sure they wage war just like everybody else, but at least they're not a bunch of xenophobic assholes who wish to destroy every other living being that doesn't have blue/grey skin and red eyes. At least they have a charming and adorable idealism to them called "For the greater good!" instead of the human "Crush! Kill! Hate! Destroy!"-philosophy.

So yeah, in the 41st millenium, mankind has devolved into an evil race (but as we all know, evil can be a bit adorable in fictional settings ). And I guarantee that If I were to be magically transported into the 41st millenium for real, and manage to resist the urge to kill myself due to realizing what a depressing place I had ended up in, I'd either join a Chaos cult or sign up for the Tau. Mankind just doesn't float my boat ideologically in that time (in fact, it doesn't really do that now either)

My 2 thrones (hopefully, in time):

Your player's PC is living in (in general terms):

a-Nazi Germany

b-The Dark Ages

c-The McArthur/Bush (after 9/11) Era

d-Stalinist URSS

ALL ROLLED INTO ONE, to the Nth Degree, infinitely squared

With all those seditious thoughts s/he'll be akin to:

Gallileo,

Martin Luther,

St Francis of Assisi,

Dalton Trumbo,

Gandhi,

etc., etc., etc.

Now, does s/he have what it takes?

It could be fun

-L

W?

Varnias Tybalt said:

So wanting to push out all the species that (you percieve to) have been preying on you for millenia is evil, but a slave economy isn't? If you look at the realities of Tau culture it's all very positive and enlightened, just so long as you are A) a Tau and B) not concerned with the value of your identity or individuality.

Humanity's anti-alien position leads to evil events, from time to time (unless you count the evils performed covertly by corrupt individuals in power, but I challenge you to show me any powerful government in the real world, modern or historical, that has not been subject to the same problems), but while their public line is "death to all xenos" the real policies are more "death to all space-capable xeno species in Imperial Space that won't go away". The Imperium will also conquer a planet/system if there are resources there they want, but that's just standard imperialism, not nice, but a kind of evil that (again) every large government in human history commits casually.

The reason you see the Imperium as "Evil" is because you're looking at its propaganda as an outsider looking in, with a cultural bias coming from "enlightend" 21st century attitudes. If you investigate the policies, behavior, goals, and motivations of the Imperium in depth, you'll see them for what they are, a massive confederacy of disparate cultures and organizations under the constant threat of corruption, destruction, enslavement, or worse, from both inside and out. The darkness is there, but the Imperium isn't the cause, it's just a bunch (and I mean a big bunch) of people all trying to do the best they can to keep themselves and their species alive and healthy. Numerous errors and evils both will stem from this, but the Imperium itself is largely a positive force for humanity (and a negative force for those species nearby).

Your big issue seems to be the anti-Xeno position, so I'll get into that particular concern in detail, though I can explain the justifications for just about any "evil" position or policy held (or believed to be held) by the Imperium. Not everything they do is good, but the basic version is that the Imperium is not evil, just big, powerful, and frequently subject to human corruptions.

So waaaay back in the day, humanity claws its way out of near-oblivion, and rebuilds from the ashes of the Age of Strife, all thanks to a ruthless but largely decent man gifted with incredibly power and intellect, the Emperor. As he reunites his people he finds them surrounded on all sides by:

The Orks - 'Nuff said. If you can defend the orks then this will be pointless anyway. Any sane species would quickly conclude that these guys have to go... completely.

Dark Eldar - Sadistic slavers who love to kill humans (and anyone else) in the most horrific ways possible, then eat their souls. Again, can you tell me how wanting all of them dead is a bad thing?

The Eldar - Not only responsible for the Age of Strife, the birth of Slaanesh, the Eye of Terror, the complete destruction of their homeworld(s), and the existence of the Dark Eldar, but still of the position that they are the most superior species in existance. To top it off, despite "being better than the Mon'Keigh (monkeys)" they still feel the need to raid them mercelessly for resources when they see an opportunity. Despite all this, the policy towards the Eldar was not one of genocide, but aggressive removal from Imperial space. Maybe not a 'good' motivation, but certainly understandable, and not 'evil'.

So given this exposure, it would be a natural conclusion to say "Aliens are a hostile and destructive force that must be kept away from humanity at all costs... wipe them out." Again, not the result of someone under the very highest ideals, perhaps, but not evil, just practical given the situation. That's not all however, the Emperor knew of chaos, its influence, and how dangerous it was, especially now with the gods back in full swing (again, thanks to the Eldar). If alien cultures, morals, and psychology were allow to be integrated into human ones, chaos would be able to work its influence with a much bigger smoke-screen. Besides, the only species that one could even talk to at that point (as the Tau were an unknown), had already fallen farther to chaos than humanity would ever be able to. So yes, I "would not trust the xeno" either.

In truth, the policy wasn't even this cut and dry anyway. Unless a world was possessed of some great value, a native alien species that was not believed to be warp-capable (and would not ever be likely to become warp-capable) were generally left alone. They would not rise to threaten humanity, so no need to waste lives and resources in pointless slaughter. In fact, when the Imperium met the Kinebrach, had it not been for the influence and sabotage of relations by the forces of Chaos, the Imperium would have taken them in as a servant species (not great in my opinion, but from the way it was being discussed at the time, it would have been at least as kind as what the Tau do with allied non-Tau). In the current era (M41), the Imperium is perfectly willing to negotiate with alien species (having had numerous joint and allied actions with both Eldar and Tau), just not cede them any human inhabited ground.

So the Imperium is no "shining beacon of good and righteousness", sure. However, the Imperium is no more evil than every world governement with real financial and military power in human history. More brutal and more viscious, sure, but given the threat they operate under and the sheer scale they have to deal with, this is a natural consequence. As a final note, the Imperium is so brutal in it's dealing with its own people only because they only get involved when everything's already gone to hell. In general, each world is entirely free to operate itself under it's own rules, so long as they don't support/tolerate chaos, treason, heresy, etc. and pay their tithes. So really, one world may be an egalitarian and educated near-utopia, while one jump away you can have a soul-crushing dystopic society run by a half-psychotic despot. The Imperium can't micro-manage every world, and if the inhabitants don't like the way things are, they are free to rebel (according to Imperial law internal rebellion is not treason, so long as the rebels acknowledge certain rules, and in some cases even moderate infractions will be overlooked if they are borne of ignorance rather than betrayal. If successful, the new ruling power will be installed as the new stewards for that world, as long as they are found to be loyal to the Imperium as a whole).

So I ask again, given the above (or in response to it), how is the Imperium actually 'evil'?

Aureus said:

Don't you think you're stretching it a bit when you say "perfectly willing"?

We both know that the only times that the Imperium of man have accepted to negotiate and cooperate with aliens species is either because they knew they couldn't afford to turn down the help at the time (but given the chance, would've gladly slaughtered the "alien helping hands" if they could), or because the other enemy they are facing is of a higher priority at the time.

So yeah, the Imperium might be "perfectly willing" to cooperate and negotiate when it suits their own agenda. But when push comes to shove, they would stab any non-human allies in the back as soon as the opportunity arises.

In my book that does not mean to be "perfectly willing to negotiate".

Also regarding the kinebrach, we both know that the only reason the Imperial forces were willing to negotiate with them was because it was a society where humans and aliens coexisted. Every other alien world they came across that was only inhabited by alien species had to suffer from being shafted by the Imperial crusaders and their: "Crush! Kill! Destroy!" policy.

It seems that the only time the Imperium was willing to negotiate at all was when other humans were involved. If it were aliens only, then they were considered as pests which had to be exterminated (this line of thinking is riddling the Horus Heresy books).

Sort of how the Nazis looked upon the Jews back in the days. But if you want to, you can try to defend their actions as well.

Aureus said:

That's the thing: "The Imperium can't micro manage every world". It makes you think, why then did they feel the urge to colonize so many worlds when they can barely keep them in control? One would've think that mankind learned it's lesson after the age of strife, but nooo, the Emperor simply had to go out again and conquer every single world and build this so called "Empire" that the Imperials can just barely keep in check, all the while it's people are suffering for it, constantly (yes consider the ratio of suffering citizens in comparison to citizens who live healthy and meaningful lives).

"Don't bite off more than you can chew." would be an apt wisdom to apply here, a wisdom that even the "superbrain aka The Emperor" didn't bother to think of. And also remember the fact that because of the Imperium's glorification of war and conquest they had to suffer from the Horus Heresy as well. Sure creating a race of power armoured supermen to wage your wars might sound like a good idea at first, but what would they think when all the wars are won and they have no purpose any more? Oops! Another "slight miscalculation" on the Emperors part. Seems like his "miscalculations" seem to stack high on top of eachother. And the net result of all his "miscalculations" is an evil and dystopic Empire that has to commit the worst atrocities ever in order to simply survive.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions, I guess.

So yeah, i'd still stick with the Tau. Individuality is worth **** if it means the society will have to suffer because of it, and if you want to keep a society that spans several worlds, then you pretty much have to have a united people behind it. The human race tried to have a galaxy spanning Empire without being completely united, and failed miserably.

Or I'll simply cater to my anarchistic sides (which are prevalent in my personality) and join a chaos cult. Either way, I'd be more at peace with my actions than abiding by what the Imperium of Man dictates, knowing then what I know now...

Varnias Tybalt said:

"Thank you for providing us with the nature of your opinions, Master Varnius" >BLAM!<

---Commisar Heng, upon learning the true intentions of the rabid heretek Varnius Tybalt

Also, Godwin's Rule was invoked, therefore /thread

We really have strayed far afield of the OP's dilemma, but we can also agree that there are striations of good and evil in the Imperium of Man.

Illithidelderbrain said:

Commissars aint got nothing on the rabid heretek in question. The player character Varnias Tybalt is an Inquisitor at the moment.

Oddly enough an Inquisitor belonging to the Xeno Hybris faction. It must be fate!

1) "Parts of the Imperium are well governed and the citizens enjoy good living conditions."

This stirred some people up. This is also true. Notice I didn't say every part of the Imperium is nice, I said some places were pleasant and well run. Tanith in the Gaunt's Ghost series was a nice world. Vervonhive before the fall was reasonably pleasant. The Brotherhood of the Snake features some nice planets. Those are off the top of my head. Not every planet in the Imperium is unpleasant.

2) Evil?

It's flat out genocidal.

There is no freedom of conscience. Everyone must worship the official religion or die horribly.

It's intolerant.

It treats mutants horribly.

It permits corrupt and brutal regimes to continue as long as they pay their tithes.

Whole classes of people are treated as slaves.

It conquers and destroys all those around it.

Many worlds are hellpits where the workers are exploited mercilessly.

Torture and other barbarisms are regularly employed against dissenters.

Evil? As a whole the Imperium is evil. It also serves a useful function. Mankind is surrounded by enemies it exists to fight. The Imperium is therefore both evil and necessary, but it isn't the shining beacon of enlightenment the Emperor desired to create.

Illithidelderbrain said:

Godwin't rule is suspended when discussing 40k.

Sure there are striations of good in the Imperium. Every cloud of evil needs its silver lining of good.

The Imperium is evil. It's just 'less evil' than some of the other factions.

Can anyone think of a way to design the human government in 40k

1 - At least as stable as the Imperium.

2 - Better for humans in general than the Imperium is.

Assume the government came to power after the emperor was placed into the golden throne so they still have the astronomicon, as long as they are willing to feed it.

First up, I would like to point out (again) that my position is NOT that the Imperium is good, simply that it is, on aggregate, a neither good nor evil confederation of humans that are all making rational decisions based on the information they have, with the goal of keeping chaos out and helping their species thrive. Bad things happen, bad people end up in charge sometimes, but so too are there good things and good people. Overall, the Imperium is just a really big and powerful government, and given the situation that it has been in I'm actually rather surprised that it turned out as positive as it has. Really, when looking at the methods, goals, and motivations of the Imperium, they are less evil than many of the first-world nations of today. So if you can similarly look at most powerful real world groups both today and in our history, and call them evil as well, then you're basically saying that humanity is fundamentally evil. If this is your position, then my respons is, instead: "Ah, well in that case you have a completely consistent and valid perspective, that I disagree with as a matter of personal opinion, but can not argue that you are wrong to feel that way." So most anarchists and 'fight the power' types and I actually will have little to debate, as our disagreement is based on fundamental outlook, not facts.

The Imperium is easy to label as 'evil' when looking at the big picture (especially coming from the outside with a 21st century morality), if you don't look at the causal relationships, situation, and motivations for the things you see as being evil. Everyone I've seen throw around the 'evil' label has both failed to clearly define 'evil', and either attacked propaganda as though it were fact, and/or attacked the results of a policy without looking at why the policy exists, or how it is actually enacted, first.

Varnias Tybalt said:

Actually no, I feel I hit it the nail right on the head. There are a number of examples where the Imperium entered into diplomatic negotiations with both the Tau and the Eldar, usually before fighting broke out. While most of the time both sides refused to back down, resulting in open warfare, the fact that there are specially trained xeno-diplomats is evidence that it's not a cut and dry as the propaganda has led you to believe. The Imperium doesn't exactly "play nice" but they aren't as concerned with exterminating "Xeno filth" as they are with keeping them away from humanity. Again, Imperialism will cause acts of aggression as well, but the Imperium has shown an even more hard-line attitude towards deviant human cultures than they have Xenos. The fact that when presented with a world that's home to a xeno culture that will never be able to take to the stars, the Imperium labels the world "forbidden" and moves on (unless there are valuable resources for the taking) is further evidence (in one case a particularly compassionate naval guardsman discovered a mutant offshoot colony world, and reported that they were just indiginous Xenos incapable of developing high technology, so they would be spared extermination).

So while the Imperium is Imperialistic, aggressive, expansionist, and xenophobic, they are not the senseless genocidal madmen you'd portray them as.

Varnias Tybalt said:

Only because of the SS-esque commisariat garb and use of the double-eagle will you be spared the wrath of Godwin's Law for that one...

The point I'm making is that they are not at all like the Nazis, and that the error is the equating of the two. I am an apologist for the Imperium because I understand how and why they work the way they do. I am not, in any way, going to defend the scourge of my people (the Jews were not alone in those camps, they were just the majority). That dark moment of the discussion aside...

The Kinebrach were looked at as potentially tolerable because of their pre-existing relationship with humans, this is true. However, the revelation was not "Well, we want the humans, so I guess we can take them in for a little while..." but "Wow, a Xeno species that actually *can* peacefully interact with humans without destroying us from both inside and out! This may change the way we look at.... oh crap explosions and betrayal!" Again, I would point out that the Emperor and his people had no reason, given their knowledge of and interactions with all previously encountered alien species, to believe that any Xeno could be safely interacted with by the general population.

If the Xenos are not in (what is perceived to be) Imperial space, and not interacting with humans already, why should the Imperium do anything but ignore them? They are xenophobic and jingoistic ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingoism ), which is not virtuous, but compared to most real-world governments that held/hold real power, not "evil" either.

Varnias Tybalt said:

Well, good intentions leading to bad results would be misguided, inept, niave, or flawed, but not evil. If that's your perspective on all this, then we'd have a very different discussion.

No large government can micro-manage and succeed. The US does not micro-manage its cities and smaller municipalities, and the Imperium has millions of planets with a much wider divide of travel and communication, the idea that any multi-system government could micro-manage is laughable, and that's before you add the problems of inter-warp travel and communication. Every world is expected to stamp out heresy, report in semi-regularly, follow a very short list of very basic and fundamental laws, and pay their taxes (tithes). Beyond these very hands-off rules, they are more or less free to rule themselves. The Imperium is a Liberterian's wet dream come true (until you factor in all the outside problems of daemons, choas legions, Tyranid, and the like anyway). Unless your crimes are sufficiant to concern the Imperium itself (mostly treason, heresy, severe atrocities, etc.), there aren't even extradition rights enforced, beyond what various worlds negotiate with each other, if you escape the system.

So yes some worlds are going to be a living hell, freedom (yeah, I know right, freedom wasn't something you were expecting) comes with a significant risk of tyranny. Allowing unhappy populations to rise up against their existing rulers without reprisal (so long as they remain loyal to the Imperium itself), is the most reasonably way to handle such problems, otherwise real tyranny becomes the norm, rather than an exception.

The Imperium was not created just for one man's ego, though it is easy to forget given how things have played out. The Imperium was founded to ensure that humanity would be united, and through that unity would be kept safe from the depredations of Chaos and hostile Aliens. If the Imperium did not exist, the Tyranids and the Orks would probably have wiped most of humanity from the galaxy already, simply because a single star system can't hope to stand against such threats alone forever. With the threat of Chaos hanging over everyone (again, all thanks to the Eldar for giving us Slaanesh, more robust Chaos gods and Daemons, and the Age of Strife), the Emperor knew that if left disparate and without a unified truth, worlds would be much more suseptable to corruption. So each human world was brought back into the fold with as little disruption as possible (during the days of the Crusade the Imperium bent over backwards to get uncorrupted systems to join peacefully). War, while glorified (as it has always been by humans), was the act of last resort.

The Emperor had a perfectly solid plan for the Astartes, and had he been as good a father as he was a leader, everything would have been fine. Unfortunately, as I see all too often in dealing with those born into wealth and privledge today, if you never have to strive, if you never see the results of failure (regardless of if you fail or not), if you never have to suffer because life is just hard, then you never really grow into an adult. This was the problem with Horus, and the nearly all of the Primarchs in general. They were a bunch of adolescent boys that became socially powerful, and were given nearly limitless power, who all wanted their dad to love and appreciate them. When faced with the first real hardships and emotional pain in their lives, they lashed out and rebelled against their father over a percieved betrayal, that was actually just dad trying to look out for them and keep them from getting themselves into trouble. You can see this in a lot of the loyalist vs traitor breakdown: Horus, Lorgar, and Fulgrim all fit this profile perfectly. Angron was a psychopath from day 1. Magnus tried everything he could, but his youthful recklessness, ego, and irresponsibility caused him to make matters so bad that his pride eventually forced him to turn traitor. Purtabo was already weak due to his envy, pride, and ego, but Horus turned him through deception and corruption. Night Haunter was just nuts, and easily corrupted. Alpharius didn't so much turn as attempt to enact a plan of his own, which is still in question. On the flip side you had a core of those Primarchs who had been forced to grow into full adults before the Emperor showed up and handed them the keys to the Imperium, plus a handful of others that either died too early (Mannus) or were just so doggedly loyal that they wouldn't turn.

The Astartes, while built for war, are also intelligent, capable, and well-educated, and with such long and vital lives would be natural "philosiphor kings" to lead the Imperium once peace was established. The fact that they would be effectively immortal also would remove many of the concerns that lead to the corruption of most political and spiritual leaders. Of course, until the Emperor's plan to open the reconstructed webway for humanity to finally escape the full-threat of Chaos, their martial abilities would be requisite for the Imperium's continued survival. Again, the corruption of Horus and the division of the Legions by Chaos lies at the Emperor's feet, true, but only because he was a poor father to the sons he had created, rather than any natural flaw in his plans that ensured doom.

Varnias Tybalt said:

Society always suffers for the individuality of others, but if you truly have an anarchistic nature, how would you handle the subversion of the self and one's own comfort and desires for the good of your society that defines the principals of the Greater Good? The Empire didn't fail because of their lack of unity, if they could be said to have failed at all, that failure stems from the betrayals they suffered from within, and the sheer power of chaos. Also, the Tau primarily function simply because they have a reduced warp signature. If they were as suseptable to the warp and to Chaos as humans, they would not be the people that they are. So any comparison is not really fair anyway.

The question of "how much freedom" is a difficult one, the more freedom you give, the more you allow suffering to run free. Of course tyranny, even at its most benevolent, just promotes suffering of a different kind, so where do you place the balance? Total freedom just creates a new tyranny, as the most natively powerful become free to do as they please, and take what they want, and total oppression destroys the individual to the point that existence carries no value or purpose. You look at the balance, panic, and seek the extremes, both of which effectively end in your destruction. I seriously question how you could be at peace with your actions, as while there are valid aspects to the desires of Chaos, it has become so negative and destructive in aspect that they all exist as lies that perpetuate suffering to sooth their own pain, while never understanding that the very act of soothing their internal hungers with more suffering perpetuates their own emptiness and suffering.

Now, as for this other guy...

Cynical Cat said:

That people would become so stirred up over such an obviously true statement just further illustrates that they are labelling an amophous idea of the Imperium rather than looking at the facts and making a rational conclusion. One could just as readily say "Modern day Earth is evil! Look at all the horrible things that happen!", though they'd be laughed at for making such a sweeping generalization. Sepheris Secundus is a horrible place to live led by a largely evil government, sure, but the Imperium as a whole is not Sepheris Secundus.

Cynical Cat said:

I've addressed this, in detail, above. I continue to hold that this is incorrect.

Cynical Cat said:

Also not true. Some planets may have mandatory observation, and the Imperial Guard does enforce at least some religious observation (though conviction is rarely tested, lip service is usually more than enough), but as a whole citizens are not required to follow the official religions (yes, plural) to avoid censure. Following a religion other than a (non-proscribed) Imperial faith is dangerous, but depending on the specifics even a small minority of these are tolerated so long as they are not hostile to the Imperial faiths. In addition, so long as your faith does not court the influence of Chaos, extreme heterodoxy is supported and in some areas is actively cultivated. Given the literal nature of the Emperor, his history, the unquestionable miracles of his saints and his most faithful, on top of the threat of Chaos, this is not an irrational or 'evil' policy. Might there be a better way? Certainly, but not being perfect =/= evil.

Cynical Cat said:

Vague. There are plenty of things I am perfectly right to be intolorant of (murder, ****, theft, etc.). Cut this from the list and stick to specifics, as you did elsewhere.

Cynical Cat said:

Yes they do, and it is unfortunate how this works out on most worlds. Even the best worlds keep the mutants as a barely tolerated out-caste in special shanty-towns. Remember though that mutants, by Imperial standards, are a far cry from any normal mutations that we see in the real world. My six wisdom teeth would not get me executed. Genetic variation, drift, and adaptation within normal bounds is accepted by the Imperium, and only the most extreme deviations find themselves relegated to second-class citizens (such as the ratlings and ogryn), and their lives are not any worse due to imperial policy, but because of the common social evils born from fear or disgust at those that are different.

True mutants are twisted by the warp, and in many cases this is not due to simple bad luck. To compound the problem further, those warp-touched mutants not already given over to chaos are more suseptable to further corrution. While a large number of mutants are innocent of any personal sin, instead being victims of some other individual's corruption, the fact that Chaos influences so many warp-mutants gives a clear reason for the Imperium's policy. That they are not handled more compassionately and individually is, in my opinion, the most evil aspect of the Imperium, as it is an overreaction driven by fear, rather than a neccesary approach to ensure humanities safety and security. Not enough to **** the Imperium as evil, but certainly one of the darkest aspects of Imperial life.

Cynical Cat said:

Grouped as they are effectively the same complaint.

Yes, and as I've said this stems from a foundational policy of non-intervention and self-rule. The Imperium maintains diversity and avoids true tyranny by maintaining such a policy. This is actually very much in-line with early US history regarding state's rights, where for a very long time even horrific atrocities were left uncorrected simply because the federal courts concluded that they were not empowered to intervene on such internal matters. It was only as communication and transportation drew the country together than the courts found themselves more empowered and more motivated to intervene. So given the nature of communication and transportation in the Imperium, there is a strong historical precident for this sort of policy. When choosing between freedom and tyranny, you're really just choosing in what size chunks the tyranny will be distributed.

Cynical Cat said:

On some worlds yes, see above. As a whole I would like examples.

Cynical Cat said:

Conquers? More or less, not in totallity, but significantly this is true enough not to argue. If you feel that imperialism is inherantly evil, then there's not much to be said about your opinion on this, as that's what the Imperium is... imperial. Personally I'd say imperialism is dangerous and questionable, but not natively evil, just easily perverted.

Destroys? Not so much. Destruction is rarely a goal of the Imperium, and frequently an unavoidable consequence of the kind of warfare that is employed by both sides of a conflict.

Cynical Cat said:

"Other barbarisms" is too vague, and the nature of warfare makes any wartime action less specifically evil (and more a matter of the evil of war as a concept), so things like orbital bombardment and the like aren't really enough to qualify. Torture is not brought to bear "regularly", except on a sub-set of worlds. Generally it is the purview of the Inquisition alone when used domestically, and when applied to enemy forces, it falls to the military. So the statement above strikes me as exagerated. Torture is evil in all but the most unique and remarkable of situations (to which, in my opinion, no rule or law could ever properly encompass as more than an excuse), and while the Imperium does not really seem to have a specific "pro-torture" stance, they certainly don't have an "anti-torture" one either. I would hesitate to let this fall at the feet of the Imperium as an entity though, as from what I've seen it is rarely applied to anyone but chaos forces, which are an abomination with no real-world analogue to form a moral comparison against.

Cynical Cat said:

I agree with everything but the use of the label "evil" in this statement. It's not great, but it's not a horrific abomination that needs to be destroyed. At its core it's completely reasonable, and the best work would be done trying to redeem those specific worlds that have become corrupt, tyrannical, or otherwise hell-holes. Certain social evils could similarly be fought against, but the issue here is that the Imperium itself is not the problem, they are basically a reflection of humanity's nature when beset on all sides by forces it can not truly comprehend. More than anything, the fact that the Imperium is such a limited part of each world's nature and culture means that trying to apply moral labels to the Imperium as a whole is going to be an exercise fraught with error, exceptions, and flat out impossibility.

First up, I would like to point out (again) that my position is NOT that the Imperium is good, simply that it is, on aggregate, a neither good nor evil confederation of humans that are all making rational decisions based on the information they have, with the goal of keeping chaos out and helping their species thrive. Bad things happen, bad people end up in charge sometimes, but so too are there good things and good people. Overall, the Imperium is just a really big and powerful government, and given the situation that it has been in I'm actually rather surprised that it turned out as positive as it has. Really, when looking at the methods, goals, and motivations of the Imperium, they are less evil than many of the first-world nations of today. So if you can similarly look at most powerful real world groups both today and in our history, and call them evil as well, then you're basically saying that humanity is fundamentally evil. If this is your position, then my respons is, instead: "Ah, well in that case you have a completely consistent and valid perspective, that I disagree with as a matter of personal opinion, but can not argue that you are wrong to feel that way." So most anarchists and 'fight the power' types and I actually will have little to debate, as our disagreement is based on fundamental outlook, not facts.

The Imperium is easy to label as 'evil' when looking at the big picture (especially coming from the outside with a 21st century morality), if you don't look at the causal relationships, situation, and motivations for the things you see as being evil. Everyone I've seen throw around the 'evil' label has both failed to clearly define 'evil', and either attacked propaganda as though it were fact, and/or attacked the results of a policy without looking at why the policy exists, or how it is actually enacted, first.

No, they're just evil. Certainly they sometimes have reasons for their actions, but I think you're being too forgiving of a lot of the Imperium's crimes. What you label as mere propaganda often is fact. The reasons for some of their policies may have been good, but often were born out of sheer hatred. Other policies no longer serve a purpose but are maintained (again) due to hatred, ignorance or selfishness.

Actually no, I feel I hit it the nail right on the head. There are a number of examples where the Imperium entered into diplomatic negotiations with both the Tau and the Eldar, usually before fighting broke out. While most of the time both sides refused to back down, resulting in open warfare, the fact that there are specially trained xeno-diplomats is evidence that it's not a cut and dry as the propaganda has led you to believe. The Imperium doesn't exactly "play nice" but they aren't as concerned with exterminating "Xeno filth" as they are with keeping them away from humanity. Again, Imperialism will cause acts of aggression as well, but the Imperium has shown an even more hard-line attitude towards deviant human cultures than they have Xenos. The fact that when presented with a world that's home to a xeno culture that will never be able to take to the stars, the Imperium labels the world "forbidden" and moves on (unless there are valuable resources for the taking) is further evidence (in one case a particularly compassionate naval guardsman discovered a mutant offshoot colony world, and reported that they were just indiginous Xenos incapable of developing high technology, so they would be spared extermination).

So while the Imperium is Imperialistic, aggressive, expansionist, and xenophobic, they are not the senseless genocidal madmen you'd portray them as.

No, he's right, they are genocidal. Perhaps not madmen, but definately genocidal. They hate the xenos. They recognise that sometimes they have to negotiate with the xenos, but even then the negotiations usually fail - and 9 times out of 10 that failure is due to the Imperium's unwillingness to compromise. They do sometimes ignore worlds with a primitive xenos presence on it, but not out of the kindness of their hearts. Rather exterminating an entire world is costly and time consuming. The Imperium labels the world 'forbidden' and then moves on, after noting the world in the Imperial archives. Eventually someone will get around to organising a purge, but it may take decades/centuries/millenia, depending on the location of the planet and the resources available in the area. There are plenty of cases of the Imperium wiping out harmless races simply because it could.

Only because of the SS-esque commisariat garb and use of the double-eagle will you be spared the wrath of Godwin's Law for that one...

The point I'm making is that they are not at all like the Nazis, and that the error is the equating of the two. I am an apologist for the Imperium because I understand how and why they work the way they do. I am not, in any way, going to defend the scourge of my people (the Jews were not alone in those camps, they were just the majority). That dark moment of the discussion aside...

The Kinebrach were looked at as potentially tolerable because of their pre-existing relationship with humans, this is true. However, the revelation was not "Well, we want the humans, so I guess we can take them in for a little while..." but "Wow, a Xeno species that actually *can* peacefully interact with humans without destroying us from both inside and out! This may change the way we look at.... oh crap explosions and betrayal!" Again, I would point out that the Emperor and his people had no reason, given their knowledge of and interactions with all previously encountered alien species, to believe that any Xeno could be safely interacted with by the general population.

If the Xenos are not in (what is perceived to be) Imperial space, and not interacting with humans already, why should the Imperium do anything but ignore them? They are xenophobic and jingoistic ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingoism ), which is not virtuous, but compared to most real-world governments that held/hold real power, not "evil" either.

Er, no. The SMs were horrified at the presence of the kinebrach alongside humans. They were willing to negotiate with the humans to find out what the situation was and whether some kind of diplomatic settlement could be reached, but I didn't see any indication that they would be willing to change their views on xenos. And this was before the HH, when the Imperium was a bastion of enlightened rationality. The Imperium of the 41st millenium is a different kettle of fish, far less openminded about such things.

No large government can micro-manage and succeed. The US does not micro-manage its cities and smaller municipalities, and the Imperium has millions of planets with a much wider divide of travel and communication, the idea that any multi-system government could micro-manage is laughable, and that's before you add the problems of inter-warp travel and communication. Every world is expected to stamp out heresy, report in semi-regularly, follow a very short list of very basic and fundamental laws, and pay their taxes (tithes). Beyond these very hands-off rules, they are more or less free to rule themselves. The Imperium is a Liberterian's wet dream come true (until you factor in all the outside problems of daemons, choas legions, Tyranid, and the like anyway). Unless your crimes are sufficiant to concern the Imperium itself (mostly treason, heresy, severe atrocities, etc.), there aren't even extradition rights enforced, beyond what various worlds negotiate with each other, if you escape the system.

So yes some worlds are going to be a living hell, freedom (yeah, I know right, freedom wasn't something you were expecting) comes with a significant risk of tyranny. Allowing unhappy populations to rise up against their existing rulers without reprisal (so long as they remain loyal to the Imperium itself), is the most reasonably way to handle such problems, otherwise real tyranny becomes the norm, rather than an exception.

Actually, both of you are wrong.

The Imperium of Man that exists is not the one that the Emperor envisaged. The one that he sought to create quite possibly would have been micromanaged. He would have insisted on a standard level of education on every world, in order to stamp out ignorance and superstition. Science and rationality (except when it came to dealings with xenos) would have been the norm. A common system of global management would probably have been established for every world, though tailored for local conditions.

After the HH, this was no longer possible. The Emperor was dead, resources were stretched, chaos was rampant and suspicion and paranoia were the norm. The powers that be decided that the Emperor's plan was no longer viable and to institute 'emergency' measures to maintain control instead. As a result, they turned a bling eye towards any injustices or corruption on a world, as long as the Imperial tithes were met. Over the millenia this policy has favoured the cruel, murderous and corrupt on many worlds, leading to more and more tyrants gaining control and oppressing their people.

Apologists for the Imperium always point out that it's policies are necessary for humanity to survive. Which isn't true. Other forms of government and policies are possible. The Imperium just doesn't care. It is no longer led by idealists seeking the betterment and survival of man, but selfish power mongers who care only about protecting and strengthening their own power and influence. The leadership is cruel and murderous either due to ignorance (they have been taught that this is the right way to do things and lack the imagination to do otherwise) or design (they are smart enough to realise that there are other ways, even better ways, but are too nasty, selfish, cowardly or just plain sadistic to try).

And the real tragedy of it all? The Imperium is dying. It has, at most, another millenium to live before it falls apart. It would take radical change to save it, but the leadership are too selfish or too blind to do anything about it. Even if one bright spark tries something, he is torn down by his rivals, his power split amongst them. The suffering and death will all be for nought, unless the Emperor rises again and the lost primarchs return.

You're welcome for the advice and I'm ecstatic that I could help, hope it all goes well, keep us updated, I'm dying to see how he takes it because, like some of the folks trying to derail this topic about the Imperium being evil and whatnot, there is Good and Evil in every government, and the Imperium is large enough where there is an abundance of both. That's the nature of the Imperium's stagnant state. It is perfectly balanced, with worlds like Cadia, bastians of Law and Military order, to the Hives of Necromunda, where the gangs run the show.

Warhammer is not a setting about Good versus Evil primarily, it is a setting of Law against Chaos, and this is doubly so when it comes to the Inquisition (thus the nature of Puritan and Radical Inquisitors). A Radical Inquisitor can be "Good" (Ravenor) or "Evil" (Quixos) as easily as a Puritan can. It is the age old problem, do you fight your enemy with his own weapons, or your own.

The Imperium is neither Good nor Evil, it is Law, implaccable and undeniable. The actions that some within the Imperium take are evil, and just as many good actions are also taken.