Hi people I have been trying out a few fleet builds and objectives with a flatmate over the last few days. We have been using the previewed cards, but not the ships (since I haven’t been able to find reliable firing arc diagrams of them yet). Most of the games have been pretty close, except the one with the following lists:

Rebels:

Admiral token generator (who's name I have forgotten, Bel Ibs or something)

Neb-B escourt

Neb-B escourt

CR90b

CR90b

3 B-wings

3 X-wings

298

Imperial:

Admiral Screed

Victory-1

Victory-1

Victory-1

6 TIE fighters

293

(opening salvo, hyperspace assault, dangerous territory).

So far we have been using the interpretation whereby dice added to the attack pool after determining range can be rolled regardless of colour. I was the imperial player and chose opening salvo based on this......screed + black dice opening sounds pretty rough.

Anyway, I elected to be the second player, and the rebels chose dangerous territory as the objective.......figuring that they might be able to nab a few tokens, and that I probably wouldn’t get many unless I decided to split up.

During terrain placement I was able to get he station and one debris field near the edge of my deployment zone, while the rebels whisked the other debris field over to the other side (since its far safer for them to get objectives off those than asteroids!)

I deployed all three victories slightly off centre to my left and in a Y formation (two at the front, one slightly back and in the centre). The rebels deployed both Nebs roughly opposite the victory Y, and had a CR90 on either flank. Rebel fighters were in a couple of clouds round the Nebs, and the TIE's were scattered about the tight imperial formation (but not tight enough to mess up the TIE placement).

Without going into a full report the rebels got utterly crushed, three capitols destroyed, with one badly damaged CR90 running for a corner in the last two turns of the game. I was finding it really easy to get at least one victory into a position to get an optimal frontal barrage one something through the central turns main engagements (use speed commands and tokens the Nebs might be able to dodge one or two victories, but never all three).......and the CR90s while easily dodging the main arcs, just couldn’t stand up to triple broadsides (with screed really punishing them once their shields were down).

The rebel fighters did significant damage, but didn’t get into position quickly enough (two turns positioning, two turns fighting through all the TIE's, one turn repositioning, one turn hitting). They were pretty speedy early on, threatening to get the jump on the imperials, but through the mid to late game the squadron commands dried up as the Nebs focused on survival, and so they bogged down badly. The TIE's were largely sacrificial, only killing two x-wings all game. Total damage to the imperials was 5 damage on one victory, and 1 on another. Of that, 4 damage was deal by B-wings in the final turn. Overall I was impressed with the X-wings and B-wings combo. The x's keep the B's alive, and both put out decent damage on all targets. I think they will be very dangerous indeed if an opponent loses control of them!

So there we have it......how do the rebels go about breaking open a triple victory list if they are the first player (thus facing unfavourable objectives) and the opponent is stubbornly refusing to break formation and allow them to isolate one victory at a time.

A good report. And an excellent thread raising several important questions:

As Boothy asks -- how can the Rebs deal effectively with 3 VSD's?

Just how effective are fighters? I/e qhat is the minimum number of fighters Imperials need to bring in order to Tar PIt the Rebel fighters?

First - I don't know why he chose that objective, yes it seems like you would be able to isolate one VSD, but as you noted, it's not true.

Opening salvo will reward better the rebel player, as he gets way more points than you by damaging your ships and the running away, and it's far easier for him to do so with 4 ships than to you with 3, and afterwards, run away.

Dangerous terrain, if spreads the obstacles, allow him to acquire easilly enough objectives to get a decent lead on victory points, forcing you to chase him and fight him under his terms if you want to win... and if you really are flying the VSD on formation, that means he can go to the oppossite corner and just call it a day until your slow VSD try to reach him (a 6x3' table is pretty big ;P) .

Of the two, i would probably had chosen dangerous terrain..

Second - They are 3 Victory I unupgraded, that means their firepower is not that good if they can't get into range 1, they will have a hard time to finish off ships if you don't allow them, and being the first player, he can do exactly that. I would recomend using mon mothma, allowing to remove dice at medium range helps a lot CR90 and Nebs

substain.

Yep, Xwings + Bwings combo well together, specially if escorted by escort frigates since Ties can't get close to them until you release them, giving you a big alpha advantadge, or if they happen to engage them, the escorts + squadron activation can deal with them easilly.

In short, if an opponent is playing triple VSD, i will grab a mission that favors mobility and recquires no shooting if my list isn't suited for a head on engagement (the list is very focused on Squadrons), and if my opponent refuses to break formation (which would be mostly at deployment), then i will just grab the objectives and wait the 6 turns.

Why is everyone always worried about their ties dying? They are making the ultimate sacrifice to bring peace to the savage parts of the Galaxy, that's what they are for.

That said I figure the Assault Frigate will be more suited to bring the fight to multiple Victorys. The Imperial players has minimal fighters. What about using 3 X-wings and to engage the fighters, and taking 6 Y-wings. Tie up those Ties, and Y the Vs.

If I had gone against that list, I'd have just aimed to bring down the TIEs. I'd have pulled the TIEs away from the VSDs with a feint with the X-Wings, and then broadsided them with the Nebulons. Once the VSDs lost their fighter support, I'd have kept my Capitals at range and just let the squadrons do their work, as you flying the VSDs in a formation like you described means that they'd only ever be subject to a single VSDs anti-squadron dice if you positioned them right.

Though, running all those ships with zero upgrades isn't something I'd particularly want to do. I'd have rather dropped a CR90 to pay for the fighters, and get a few nice cards on the Nebs/remaining Corvette.

Seems we are using Core + Wave 1 Squadrons, No Ship Upgrades, No Heroes.

Exchange X-Wings for A-Wings.

Exchange Corvette B for Corvette A. at 299 points. Rebel loses initiative, and an not pick objective though.

I just think A-Wings are betters for escort for B-Wings, because B-Wings are going to be your heavy hitters. No matter what squadron you put out, they will die and/or get bogged down by TIEs. With B-Wings, give them A-Wings. They might catch the TIE's farther out or on your own terms, and their Counter 2 counterattacks could make the difference for you.

The Squadron exchange frees you up to get a Corvette A. I think this is important, because that will have long range rolls with your Nebulons.

And if you have to brawl, I'd say keep a good formation of ships together so that they always only stay in one firing arc of a flanking Vic (preferably its side) so the Vic can only target one ship, while you can fire with all 3-4 of yours into the same hull zone. With an upgraded Corvette, that should be easier. But you'll have to turn into the Vic's in order to get the front arcs where the most of your long range batteries are located. Or, run away and shoot from rear arcs...

How can you keep ships at range? It's not like they can go backwards or anything, everything moves towards each other.

How can you keep ships at range? It's not like they can go backwards or anything, everything moves towards each other.

Do not deploy them facing each other, point a ship for a straight run to an objective if you need. And have Navigate in the command dials, several times. The Learn to Play scenario starts both sides into a collision course, but if going into the 300 point game with objectives and WAVE 1 expansions, go with regular rules.

A good report. And an excellent thread raising several important questions:

As Boothy asks -- how can the Rebs deal effectively with 3 VSD's?

Just how effective are fighters? I/e qhat is the minimum number of fighters Imperials need to bring in order to Tar PIt the Rebel fighters?

Approximately 3 per vsd is optimal up to 6 total for ties.

If memory serves, VSD 1s give you the most hull per point. Add in that they have excellent engineering, and you need to concentrate fire...

Honestly, you need to choose an objective that works against them. So likely one of the navigate objectives, where board control matters more than firepower. In a group you will have great difficulty, but if you can arrange for local fighter superiority, yu should do great.

Or just do a corvette swarm with Mon Mothma.

Rebel starfighters are really really bad from a cost effectiveness standpoint. Until tie bombers are in the game you dont need them.

I agree about careful objective picks will bring about the shortcomings of the Victory list. Some will require them to split up to achieve their goals. Trying to engage them is going to be a problem if you can't break up their formation, or deny their mutual support.

In regards to Rebel fighters being bad, I don't see it that way. Are they more expensive? Oh ya. Are they outnumbered? Usually. Otherwise they are better and more versatile in every regard. How one uses their advantages and mitigates their weaknesses will be the deciding factor on their worth. Most Rebel players I have faced so far are intent on keeping their fighters in a clump for both survival and squadron commands. As an Imperial player the more I catch together the better. There will be an art that develops over time that best shows their use. We are all new, so try new things.

In all though, we are suffering from core set blues. Variety will reveal new use.

The core problem with rebel starfighters is that the vanilla tie is really really good at killing them. Losing 13 or more points per squadron can and will lose you games. The fact that they can be tarpitted also makes them a huge liability. Plus only the named pilots are any real threat to a vsd. Vsds are really good at just tanking incidental damage from starfighters and if your fighters are close enough to hit them, they are definitely close enough to get ripped to shreds by the tie fighters

Rebel starfighters are really really bad from a cost effectiveness standpoint. Until tie bombers are in the game you dont need them.

General Mitchell would like a word with you.

Well the answer is simple use your Assault Frigates Mk. II A's with enchanced arment... they pack 4 Red and 1 Blue Dice broadside so more then a VSD... they are also resistant to damage so they can come Toe to Toe with VSD. Also as for squadrons use A-wings they are fast and have counter...

Yeah, uh, if you don't take any Rebel fighters, you will get torn apart. TIEs can absolutely eat CR90s for breakfast. Yesterday I threw 10 TIEs at a Corvette and wiped it off the board in a single round.

Some interesting things here.

Dreadstar – The objectives were partially chosen on what the fleet wanted, and partially because we hadn’t played with them yet. If I were going to a tournament with this list I would swap dangerous territory for minefields, and probably swap opening salvo for advanced gunnery.

Some interesting points on dangerous territory. Having thought about it some more I think its a mission that slow fleets should avoid at all cost. Not because its easy for a fast fleet to win it, but because its easy for them to draw it if they don’t want to fight, and the slow fleet will be able to do very little about without splitting up and becoming isolated (and thus vulnerable).

As I was the second player I was able to place two of the objectives where I could get them on turn 1, and a third where I could get it on turn two.........if a CR90 had come screaming out of the set up area at speed 4 it could probably have snatched that third objective, but it would have been staring down all three victory front arcs as a result, and so probably end up trading 39 points of ship for 15 points of objective.

Opening salvo is something I would like to see in practice. The rebels can certainly score a modest lead over the imperials in a one damage per ship scenario. I think he avoided it because the black dice at range three + screed fear.......and its still no mean feat to actually punch a damage through onto all the victories without losing something in the process. That opening salvo isnt going to be strong enough to do it so there will have to be some sort of modest engagement before the rebels can make a break for it.

Wes Janson – You would need to drop a squadron there since that lot is 111 points. We have played a game with 6 Y's and while they are a nightmare to actually kill they bog down really easily. I think the X's would probably get mugged by the TIE's and the Y's bogged down for too long.

Megamen – I agree that forcing the triple victory list to pick the objective from the rebel pool would be a big help, but the list is already sitting at 293 points, how low are you willing to bid?

Green Squadron 3 – I fully agree that the assault frigate will change things a lot (I love long range broadside ships!), but for the time being we aren’t using the gladiator or assault frigate (using all other fighters and upgrades though) since I haven’t got a good picture of their firing arcs to proxy up. Do you think it may be something of a lost cause until the assault frigate comes out though?

Inksplat – I don’t really understand the 'stay at range' comment either. So far even if both the nebs and vics advance at each other at speed 1 per turn you still only get two turns before the black dice get in range. At that point the neb has to use a navigation command, and a navigation token to jump to speed three while pulling a 90 degree turn away from the victories, this jumps close range in the front arc and leaves its rear arc facing the flank of the victory it was approaching (at close range). Unfortunately its really easy to see coming and so the 'tail' of the Y can set up for shots at its flank, and if the vic it was approaching has a concentrate fire command to get a 2 black 2 red broadside then the evading neb takes quite a beating.

The A's vs X's is interesting. I haven’t really seen the A's in action yet so will have to give that a go. I guess the X's give more of a counter punch when the TIE's jump in, while the A's are trying to get the jump on the TIE's who are in turn trying to get the jump on the B's.

Er... Don't fly straight at the VSDs? Why would you ever fly straight at a VSD? I'm not sure why staying at range is a difficult concept? You've got a 6x3 play surface and ships that can very easily out-turn a VSD. You can keep your ships out of a VSDs main arcs all game if you want to.

Edit: seriously. Your Rebel-playing friend must be suicidal. I run lots of VSD-Is and I think in 4 games with them I've gotten like two shots off total that involved Black dice. And I think I've been hit by maybe one when playing Rebels myself.

Yes we have a 6x3 table but only 1' of range.......and to use that range you have to be closing on the target (unless you are either running away, or exposing the sides).

Staying out of the front arc isn’t too hard (its not like its super easy either if the vics have a moderately well timed navigate command), but I think its quite hard to stay out of their arc and keep the prow guns on target as well. In pretty much all the games so far the vics have moved to track the nebs, and the nebs then end up either peeling hard off to the side, or powering straight past, or getting the distance slightly wrong and getting blown to bits.

What speed do you tend to fly the nebs around at? We have mostly been cruising along at speed 1-2, then making a sudden speed/heading change to try and escape. This discussion has me thinking that maybe running them around at speed 3 and making more use of the rear guns is the way to go?