Do you nerds really have to argue about everything? Pre measure is in. Deal with it. If you are the better player it doesn't matter if your opponent can premeasure or not.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/contact/rules/

Jesus, then just ask them, none of us know why that's the cut off.

I don't need to know the answer. I was just making a point.

Do you nerds really have to argue about everything? Pre measure is in. Deal with it. If you are the better player it doesn't matter if your opponent can premeasure or not.

Are you even paying attention? Or discussion was on what constitutes abuse of the pre-measuring rules, not whether you can pre-measure or not.

Do you nerds really have to argue about everything? Pre measure is in. Deal with it. If you are the better player it doesn't matter if your opponent can premeasure or not.

Are you even paying attention? Or discussion was on what constitutes abuse of the pre-measuring rules, not whether you can pre-measure or not.

Bro. Some people are going to try to abuse what ever they can to win. So what? Just win anyway. Are you so insecure in your own intellectual prowess that you are going to cry foul on something that hasn't happened yet on the off chance that its going to cost you some scrub league game?

Think Pre Measuring in the game as it is, is perfectly fine. Like many of the arguments already here on board, pretty sure Space Craft have precise computing and range finding figured out.

It is not a dog fighting game, it is getting your assets in fighting order.

Do you nerds really have to argue about everything? Pre measure is in. Deal with it. If you are the better player it doesn't matter if your opponent can premeasure or not.

Are you even paying attention? Or discussion was on what constitutes abuse of the pre-measuring rules, not whether you can pre-measure or not.

Bro. Some people are going to try to abuse what ever they can to win. So what? Just win anyway. Are you so insecure in your own intellectual prowess that you are going to cry foul on something that hasn't happened yet on the off chance that its going to cost you some scrub league game?

All I said was that I wouldn't allow the scenario the original poster laid out (the tool within 1 mm of the base). I was then challenged on that on several levels. Forgive me for defending myself. Again, I'm not just here complaining. I responded to the topic relevantly and then was called out continuously.

Pre-measuring HAS to be in the game. Especially for tournament play. there are going to be some points where you have squadrons in a furball and you are trying to move you large ship into it ,and somehow get a maneuvering tool in there?

I was in another miniatures game whee a guy did some fiddly premeasuring for one figure, moved some other figures, and then moved the first one without measuring. Didn't even ask me if it was okay, just moved it without measuring, instead relying on his half ass premeasuring. I had to call an officaial over and the other player had a temper tantrum (this was a national championships)

Instead you leave a marker where you take it from, try to measure, then place it where you think it should end up, then go to your opponent and say "This look okay to you?" 99 out of 100 they will say it is okay, and everyone is happy. make it a gentleman's sport where you try to self-officiate

This isn't 40K. The rules even I have some gripes but they won't change based on my personal preference.

You are going to have to get used to the fact that people are going to have measuring aids more available and not depend on eyesight estimation, and you dear OP are not a superior player for having such talents.

If you are so against premeasuring rules go play a different game. One that bans or strictly enforces when measurement is done. Armada (and X-wing) are NOT those games.

Do you nerds really have to argue about everything? Pre measure is in. Deal with it. If you are the better player it doesn't matter if your opponent can premeasure or not.

Are you even paying attention? Or discussion was on what constitutes abuse of the pre-measuring rules, not whether you can pre-measure or not.

Bro. Some people are going to try to abuse what ever they can to win. So what? Just win anyway. Are you so insecure in your own intellectual prowess that you are going to cry foul on something that hasn't happened yet on the off chance that its going to cost you some scrub league game?

All I said was that I wouldn't allow the scenario the original poster laid out (the tool within 1 mm of the base). I was then challenged on that on several levels. Forgive me for defending myself. Again, I'm not just here complaining. I responded to the topic relevantly and then was called out continuously.

I am more criticising the existence of this thread than you in particular broseph. Chill. Premeasure. Win.

I understand that maybe you don't like pre-measuring, but keep in mind it is one of the hallmarks of this game. Imagine if I made a post complaining that I didn't like Star Destroyers, and that I wouldn't allow my opponents to field them. Would seem kinda silly right?

Because that is the one restriction they've given. And they've explicitly given it. No need to make assumptions because it is clearly given. If they meant other restrictions why are they not also there?

I'm asking why that restriction is there.

Would you allow this:

http://www.imgur.com/zOTH4by.jpeg

Yes, I would allow it.

The tool is not inserted into the base.

As for asking why the restriction is there, email FFG and ask. Anyone else here providing that answer without a direct quote from FFG is simply speculating.

My speculation is that it goes along with the rule of moving a piece in other games and when you move it and remove your hand from it, you can't take it back. Inserting the tool is like removing your hand from a piece, once started, you can't take it back. Now is this their reasoning? I have no idea as again, it's just speculation.

I wouldn't allow my opponent to put the maneuver tool a mm from the ship base. That is abusing the pre-measuring rules.

No it isn't? The rules are very specific in what locks the move in. Placing it on the table near the ship is in no way abusing that rule. Hell, in friendly games, why do you even care if they slot it in to check the move, except that it might bump the ship a bit?

If the rule is that putting the teeth of the tool in the slots of the ship locks it in, it is extremely clear that putting the tool down and nudging it as close as physically possible without touching the base of the ship to pre-measure is abusing the spirit othhat rule. Why even have the rule if you can just put it 1 mm away?

I'm not speaking figuratively here. I'm talking about a literal 1 mm gap between the tool and the base.

Just curious... what's the needed cut off in mm before it no longer becomes abuse in your opinion?

40k is a poor example. You can now premeasure in Warhammer 40k.

I wouldn't allow my opponent to put the maneuver tool a mm from the ship base. That is abusing the pre-measuring rules.

No it isn't? The rules are very specific in what locks the move in. Placing it on the table near the ship is in no way abusing that rule. Hell, in friendly games, why do you even care if they slot it in to check the move, except that it might bump the ship a bit?

If the rule is that putting the teeth of the tool in the slots of the ship locks it in, it is extremely clear that putting the tool down and nudging it as close as physically possible without touching the base of the ship to pre-measure is abusing the spirit othhat rule. Why even have the rule if you can just put it 1 mm away?

I'm not speaking figuratively here. I'm talking about a literal 1 mm gap between the tool and the base.

Just curious... what's the needed cut off in mm before it no longer becomes abuse in your opinion?

Once you start nudging the tool towards the base in an attempt to get it as close as possible without touching I would suggest that you are abusing the pre-measuring rules.

Abuse is interpretive. It can't be 100% clearly defined. It is situational. This is why the tournament rules say if you feel like your opponent is abusing the rule, call the TO over to observe the match.

In a friendly game talk about it, shake hands and kiss.

In a competitive game stare at each other, draw your weapons and fire.

I wouldn't allow my opponent to put the maneuver tool a mm from the ship base. That is abusing the pre-measuring rules.

No it isn't? The rules are very specific in what locks the move in. Placing it on the table near the ship is in no way abusing that rule. Hell, in friendly games, why do you even care if they slot it in to check the move, except that it might bump the ship a bit?

If the rule is that putting the teeth of the tool in the slots of the ship locks it in, it is extremely clear that putting the tool down and nudging it as close as physically possible without touching the base of the ship to pre-measure is abusing the spirit othhat rule. Why even have the rule if you can just put it 1 mm away?

I'm not speaking figuratively here. I'm talking about a literal 1 mm gap between the tool and the base.

Just curious... what's the needed cut off in mm before it no longer becomes abuse in your opinion?

Once you start nudging the tool towards the base in an attempt to get it as close as possible without touching I would suggest that you are abusing the pre-measuring rules.

Abuse is interpretive. It can't be 100% clearly defined. It is situational. This is why the tournament rules say if you feel like your opponent is abusing the rule, call the TO over to observe the match.

I don't know that in this case it can't be and isn't clearly defined.

Being inserted into the base does not constitute being 1 mm away. Being 1 mm away is 1 mm away from being inserted.

My speculation is that the abuse rule is tied to the timing/stalling component. If suddenly, after 4 rounds of zero pre-measurements and after the TO calls 10 minutes remaining, your opponent, who is slightly in the lead starts premeasuring every possible angle to place that corvette, that's where you'd call over the TO to observe.

MEASURING

As written on page 9 of the Rules Reference booklet, "The maneuver tool can be placed and adjusted freely during the ‘Determine Course’ step of executing a maneuver to assist in determining a course. A ship is not committed to a course until the guides of the maneuver tool are inserted into the ship’s base." Players should not abuse this pre-measurement rule to slow the pace of play or interrupt an opponent’s activation.

---quoted from page 4 of the tournament guide.

Ok, so the rules say that the tool can be placed and adjust freely. Within 1 mm is still adjusting freely as the guide is NOT inserted into the ships base.

Notice, the abuse portion has 2 qualifiers: slowing pace of play or interrupting an opponents activation. It does not specify nor imply that getting too close to the actual base constitutes abuse.

In my game on Sunday there was an incident where I was trying to determine my ships course. I was trying to be careful when placing the tool next to my ship but at one point I accidentally engaged the tool into the ship. Although it was accidental I took it on the chin and committed to the move.

I don't think I was abusing the movement tool, just following the rules.

I really think this is a minor issue, it just depends on how tolerant you are of such behavior.

If my enjoyment of playing in a tournament game is going to be ruined by this I'd rather not participate.

　

MEASURING

As written on page 9 of the Rules Reference booklet, "The maneuver tool can be placed and adjusted freely during the ‘Determine Course’ step of executing a maneuver to assist in determining a course. A ship is not committed to a course until the guides of the maneuver tool are inserted into the ship’s base." Players should not abuse this pre-measurement rule to slow the pace of play or interrupt an opponent’s activation.

---quoted from page 4 of the tournament guide.

Ok, so the rules say that the tool can be placed and adjust freely. Within 1 mm is still adjusting freely as the guide is NOT inserted into the ships base.

Notice, the abuse portion has 2 qualifiers: slowing pace of play or interrupting an opponents activation. It does not specify nor imply that getting too close to the actual base constitutes abuse.

Read further down about movement. It clearly defines inserted into the base, and then has a line about abuse of pre-measuring. The context implies there could be abuse by trying to skirt that line and say ITS NOT TOUCHING!

To me, there is a functional reason for the inserted into the base rule. If they wanted you to be able to see exactly where your ship would end up (by fully inserting the tool with the desired path) and then pick it up and change your mind, the rules would allow it.

If this game had a rule where you could not play with a red shirt on, would you enforce it? My point is, if you are going to let people nudge the tool towards the base and get it into that perfect spot of nearly there but not touching, why not just let them insert it fully? Functionally, there is no difference.

In my game on Sunday there was an incident where I was trying to determine my ships course. I was trying to be careful when placing the tool next to my ship but at one point I accidentally engaged the tool into the ship. Although it was accidental I took it on the chin and committed to the move.

I don't think I was abusing the movement tool, just following the rules.

From my experience it's in your opponents best interest not to place it 1mm from the base. I know if I'm in a tournament playing for cattle stations I wouldn't want to risk being commited to a move I didn't want to make so I'd be keeping a reasonable gap between the tool and base.

And if he does place the tool 1mm from the base just accidentally sneeze and say "OHHHH ****".

　

MEASURING

As written on page 9 of the Rules Reference booklet, "The maneuver tool can be placed and adjusted freely during the ‘Determine Course’ step of executing a maneuver to assist in determining a course. A ship is not committed to a course until the guides of the maneuver tool are inserted into the ship’s base." Players should not abuse this pre-measurement rule to slow the pace of play or interrupt an opponent’s activation.

---quoted from page 4 of the tournament guide.

Ok, so the rules say that the tool can be placed and adjust freely. Within 1 mm is still adjusting freely as the guide is NOT inserted into the ships base.

Notice, the abuse portion has 2 qualifiers: slowing pace of play or interrupting an opponents activation. It does not specify nor imply that getting too close to the actual base constitutes abuse.

Read further down about movement. It clearly defines inserted into the base, and then has a line about abuse of pre-measuring. The context implies there could be abuse by trying to skirt that line and say ITS NOT TOUCHING!

To me, there is a functional reason for the inserted into the base rule. If they wanted you to be able to see exactly where your ship would end up (by fully inserting the tool with the desired path) and then pick it up and change your mind, the rules would allow it.

If this game had a rule where you could not play with a red shirt on, would you enforce it? My point is, if you are going to let people nudge the tool towards the base and get it into that perfect spot of nearly there but not touching, why not just let them insert it fully? Functionally, there is no difference.

I don't disagree that there is no difference between no red shirts and not touching.... but if the rule is, no red shirts and a rule about inserting the base, then I'll go with the rules as written for the tournament setting.

MOVEMENT

Players must follow all movement rules in the Star Wars: Armada Learn to Play and Rules Reference booklets.

After the maneuver tool’s guides are inserted into a ship, the joints of the tool cannot be adjusted. The maneuver tool’s guides are considered to be inserted into the ship when the side of the maneuver tool is parallel to the ship’s base and both base and tool are touching. If a player believes his or her opponent is abusing movement pre-measuring he or she can request that a judge observe the match.

All I'm seeing here is what exactly constitutes "inserted" --- which is defined as touching, not close to touching by being 1 mm away. There is absolutely no ambiguity in what constitutes 'inserted'. The warning is about measuring, which was related to in the part about measuring on page 4 of the tournament rules. I see no other implication about 'not touching' as you state. I see it only reference the "movement pre-measuring" issue already discussed earlier in the rules.

The bottom line here is this: You are assuming what the functional rule of touching could be. I have given an equally valid alternative solution to the touching rule, "like when you take your hand off a moved piece in other games, you can't take that move back". The touching rule they provided could be just as trivial as that type of rule. In both cases we don't know what their motivation is, but we do know exactly what is and isn't allowed. You can pre-measure so long as you don't insert the guide into the base.

I do it way different than you guys. I stick the tool in the base, THEN plan the move. I mean honestly it makes no difference either way. In a game where you can pre-measure, what difference does a single milimeter make? It makes play easier to just stick it in there and then adjust it to the clicks you want.

　MEASURING As written on page 9 of the Rules Reference booklet, "The maneuver tool can be placed and adjusted freely during the ‘Determine Course’ step of executing a maneuver to assist in determining a course. A ship is not committed to a course until the guides of the maneuver tool are inserted into the ship’s base." Players should not abuse this pre-measurement rule to slow the pace of play or interrupt an opponent’s activation.

---quoted from page 4 of the tournament guide.

Ok, so the rules say that the tool can be placed and adjust freely. Within 1 mm is still adjusting freely as the guide is NOT inserted into the ships base.

Notice, the abuse portion has 2 qualifiers: slowing pace of play or interrupting an opponents activation. It does not specify nor imply that getting too close to the actual base constitutes abuse.

Read further down about movement. It clearly defines inserted into the base, and then has a line about abuse of pre-measuring. The context implies there could be abuse by trying to skirt that line and say ITS NOT TOUCHING!

To me, there is a functional reason for the inserted into the base rule. If they wanted you to be able to see exactly where your ship would end up (by fully inserting the tool with the desired path) and then pick it up and change your mind, the rules would allow it.

If this game had a rule where you could not play with a red shirt on, would you enforce it? My point is, if you are going to let people nudge the tool towards the base and get it into that perfect spot of nearly there but not touching, why not just let them insert it fully? Functionally, there is no difference.

I don't disagree that there is no difference between no red shirts and not touching.... but if the rule is, no red shirts and a rule about inserting the base, then I'll go with the rules as written for the tournament setting.

　

MOVEMENT

Players must follow all movement rules in the Star Wars: Armada Learn to Play and Rules Reference booklets.

After the maneuver tool’s guides are inserted into a ship, the joints of the tool cannot be adjusted. The maneuver tool’s guides are considered to be inserted into the ship when the side of the maneuver tool is parallel to the ship’s base and both base and tool are touching. If a player believes his or her opponent is abusing movement pre-measuring he or she can request that a judge observe the match.

All I'm seeing here is what exactly constitutes "inserted" --- which is defined as touching, not close to touching by being 1 mm away. There is absolutely no ambiguity in what constitutes 'inserted'. The warning is about measuring, which was related to in the part about measuring on page 4 of the tournament rules. I see no other implication about 'not touching' as you state. I see it only reference the "movement pre-measuring" issue already discussed earlier in the rules.

The bottom line here is this: You are assuming what the functional rule of touching could be. I have given an equally valid alternative solution to the touching rule, "like when you take your hand off a moved piece in other games, you can't take that move back". The touching rule they provided could be just as trivial as that type of rule. In both cases we don't know what their motivation is, but we do know exactly what is and isn't allowed. You can pre-measure so long as you don't insert the guide into the base.

And the tournament rules say it is possible to abuse this rule (in two different contexts). I have nothing against pre-measuring. All I said is what I would consider to be potentially abusive of the pre-measuring rule.

I do it way different than you guys. I stick the tool in the base, THEN plan the move. I mean honestly it makes no difference either way. In a game where you can pre-measure, what difference does a single milimeter make? It makes play easier to just stick it in there and then adjust it to the clicks you want.

Being too close=abuse is just silly. If they can make the determination in a time manor it isn't abuse to do a thing the rules explicitly allow you to do.

　MEASURING As written on page 9 of the Rules Reference booklet, "The maneuver tool can be placed and adjusted freely during the ‘Determine Course’ step of executing a maneuver to assist in determining a course. A ship is not committed to a course until the guides of the maneuver tool are inserted into the ship’s base." Players should not abuse this pre-measurement rule to slow the pace of play or interrupt an opponent’s activation.

---quoted from page 4 of the tournament guide.

Ok, so the rules say that the tool can be placed and adjust freely. Within 1 mm is still adjusting freely as the guide is NOT inserted into the ships base.

Notice, the abuse portion has 2 qualifiers: slowing pace of play or interrupting an opponents activation. It does not specify nor imply that getting too close to the actual base constitutes abuse.

Read further down about movement. It clearly defines inserted into the base, and then has a line about abuse of pre-measuring. The context implies there could be abuse by trying to skirt that line and say ITS NOT TOUCHING!

To me, there is a functional reason for the inserted into the base rule. If they wanted you to be able to see exactly where your ship would end up (by fully inserting the tool with the desired path) and then pick it up and change your mind, the rules would allow it.

If this game had a rule where you could not play with a red shirt on, would you enforce it? My point is, if you are going to let people nudge the tool towards the base and get it into that perfect spot of nearly there but not touching, why not just let them insert it fully? Functionally, there is no difference.

I don't disagree that there is no difference between no red shirts and not touching.... but if the rule is, no red shirts and a rule about inserting the base, then I'll go with the rules as written for the tournament setting.

　MOVEMENT Players must follow all movement rules in the Star Wars: Armada Learn to Play and Rules Reference booklets. After the maneuver tool’s guides are inserted into a ship, the joints of the tool cannot be adjusted. The maneuver tool’s guides are considered to be inserted into the ship when the side of the maneuver tool is parallel to the ship’s base and both base and tool are touching. If a player believes his or her opponent is abusing movement pre-measuring he or she can request that a judge observe the match.

All I'm seeing here is what exactly constitutes "inserted" --- which is defined as touching, not close to touching by being 1 mm away. There is absolutely no ambiguity in what constitutes 'inserted'. The warning is about measuring, which was related to in the part about measuring on page 4 of the tournament rules. I see no other implication about 'not touching' as you state. I see it only reference the "movement pre-measuring" issue already discussed earlier in the rules.

The bottom line here is this: You are assuming what the functional rule of touching could be. I have given an equally valid alternative solution to the touching rule, "like when you take your hand off a moved piece in other games, you can't take that move back". The touching rule they provided could be just as trivial as that type of rule. In both cases we don't know what their motivation is, but we do know exactly what is and isn't allowed. You can pre-measure so long as you don't insert the guide into the base.

And the tournament rules say it is possible to abuse this rule (in two different contexts). I have nothing against pre-measuring. All I said is what I would consider to be potentially abusive of the pre-measuring rule.