If it isn't an abuse, why not just allow locking in the template to the ship's base anyways ?

I will clarify myself, i don't think it's an abuse (since it's pre-measurement), but i can see the merits of the argument itself.

Edit - About your last comment, i could stall game, you can do it too. Or i could switch a command i don't want, because you can do it too. By your definition it wouldn't be an abuse...

If a player believes his or her opponent is abusing movement pre-measuring he or she can request that a judge observe the match.

It doesn't say anything about time stalling only.

they have provided no definition of "abuse" other than stalling for time

I have to assume "abusing pre-measuring" refers to that slow-play or stalling, because otherwise we have a whole wide world of potential "abuse"s to explore

for example, what if the navigation tool is place anywhere in-between the activated ship and a nearby allied ship. Is it abuse because the opponent could be pre-measuring the other ship's movement as well? Hell, the tool being slotted on the side opposite of the nearby ship could give the player a pretty good idea of how to move. Now imagine the same scenario but with an enemy ship. These hypotheticals may seem black and white, but the water gets murkier the closer the ships come together

potential scenarios such as these (and tons others) are going to irk different players to different degrees, so I'd rather not operate on a vague metric of "abuse"

By contrast, using pre-measuring to stall or drag out the game (or interrupt the opponent's turn) are explicitly defined offenses which can be effectively curbed (via introduction of timers for players and/or a watchful T.O). Plus, in a way, the time abuse covers for most other forms of abuse (it takes time to hold and process and ancillary information you're not supposed to be getting from pre-measuring)

Speaking casually, you should just discuss any potential cases of abuse with your opponent or just hope they don't happen (tryhards in casual matches are a drag)

Competitively, though, we're going to need a far more concrete foundation and stalling/slow-play/interruption covers those and can be further enforced with an objective clock rather than just a subjective perspective

I think as experience with the game grows, less of the pre-measures will be as a result of unfamiliarity vs genuine reflection on the situation.

If it isn't an abuse, why not just allow locking in the template to the ship's base anyways ?

This is the crux of the issue.

The pre-measure rule is there so you don't have to commit blindly. It isn't there so you can determine the exact placement of all possible notch combinations before you move.

My biggest concern is that I know I will end up playing that guy that needs to premeasure everything, even moves that are ridiculous or just not a right move. After an hour of play I will have spent 10 mins playing and 50 mins waiting for them to make their moves.

Outside of that, premeasuring doesn't give any information that looking at the board doesn't give you for the maneuver tool.

If it isn't an abuse, why not just allow locking in the template to the ship's base anyways ?

This is the crux of the issue.

The pre-measure rule is there so you don't have to commit blindly. It isn't there so you can determine the exact placement of all possible notch combinations before you move.

Then why is that not what the rules say?

You're assuming designer intent with no backing for it. If that were the designers intent then the rules would need to be written as such, instead of the way they are.

Here are what the rules actually say on the subject as opposed to what some posters think they should say.

Page 9 of the L2P.

"The player may place the maneuver tool on the play are to determine possible positions for his ship be commiting to the move"

No restrictions there.

Page 9 of the RRG

"Players can measure with either side of the range ruler at anytime

The maneuver tool can be placed and adjusted freely during the "Determine Course" step of executing a maneuver to assist in determine a course. A ship is not committed to a course until the guides of the maneuver tool are inserted into the ship's base."

Again no restrictions on where the tool can be placed, with the rules specifically saying "placed and adjusted freely" up until the point you insert the tool into the ship's base.

Page 4 of the Tournament Rules.

"As written on page 9 of the Rules Reference booklet "(See Above)". Players should not abuse the pre-measure rule to slow the pace of play or interrupt thier opponents activations"

The only further restriction being one against stalling or disrupting your opponents activations.

In 3 separate places the ability to pre-measure is touched on, and none of them suggest the limitations poster are asserting. Not even the even the Tournament Rules which will be the most restrictive.

My biggest concern is that I know I will end up playing that guy that needs to premeasure everything, even moves that are ridiculous or just not a right move. After an hour of play I will have spent 10 mins playing and 50 mins waiting for them to make their moves.

Outside of that, premeasuring doesn't give any information that looking at the board doesn't give you for the maneuver tool.

In casual play either don't play that guy or tell him you'd like to finish a game in a reasonable amount of time.

In tournament play, call him on his stalling.

If it isn't an abuse, why not just allow locking in the template to the ship's base anyways ?

This is the crux of the issue.

The pre-measure rule is there so you don't have to commit blindly. It isn't there so you can determine the exact placement of all possible notch combinations before you move.

Then why is that not what the rules say?

You're assuming designer intent with no backing for it. If that were the designers intent then the rules would need to be written as such, instead of the way they are.

Here are what the rules actually say on the subject as opposed to what some posters think they should say.

Page 9 of the L2P.

"The player may place the maneuver tool on the play are to determine possible positions for his ship be commiting to the move"

No restrictions there.

Page 9 of the RRG

"Players can measure with either side of the range ruler at anytime

The maneuver tool can be placed and adjusted freely during the "Determine Course" step of executing a maneuver to assist in determine a course. A ship is not committed to a course until the guides of the maneuver tool are inserted into the ship's base."

Again no restrictions on where the tool can be placed, with the rules specifically saying "placed and adjusted freely" up until the point you insert the tool into the ship's base.

Page 4 of the Tournament Rules.

"As written on page 9 of the Rules Reference booklet "(See Above)". Players should not abuse the pre-measure rule to slow the pace of play or interrupt thier opponents activations"

The only further restriction being one against stalling or disrupting your opponents activations.

In 3 separate places the ability to pre-measure is touched on, and none of them suggest the limitations poster are asserting. Not even the even the Tournament Rules which will be the most restrictive.

Why is there a restriction from putting the tool in the base of the ship?

Because that is the one restriction they've given. And they've explicitly given it. No need to make assumptions because it is clearly given. If they meant other restrictions why are they not also there?

Because that is the one restriction they've given. And they've explicitly given it. No need to make assumptions because it is clearly given. If they meant other restrictions why are they not also there?

Would you allow this:

http://www.imgur.com/zOTH4by.jpeg

No, clearly the nubs are inserted into the base. Move it over another 3mm, and then yes. Why? Because the rules say that the tool can be "placed and adjusted freely" until inserted into the base.

Unless you believe the word freely to mean something other then it actually means you've got no grounds to believe that any placement without the tool inserted into the base, is not within the pre-measure rule.

No, clearly the nubs are inserted into the base. Move it over another 3mm, and then yes. Why? Because the rules say that the tool can be "placed and adjusted freely" until inserted into the base.

Unless you believe the word freely to mean something other then it actually means you've got no grounds to believe that any placement without the tool inserted into the base, is not within the pre-measure rule.

Those nubs are not locked into the base fully though. There is at least 1 mm between the tool and the base. The tool isn't even physically touching the base.

This is the placement I have been arguing against the entire time. I even mentioned 1 mm gap in earlier posts. You seem to be misunderstanding what I have been arguing. I've said multiple times I'm fine with people putting the tool down near the ship base, that is clearly within the rules.

3 mm to the left would probably be good with me too. That's nearly 1/8 of an inch further away and would leave an easily visible gap.

Is the tool inserted into the base? Yes, clearly part of the tool is within the base. Fully or not is not the requirement of the rules. So long as no part of the tool is within the base you are good to go.

You said in the previous post I qouted that the rule was clearly not intended to allow you to check every possible placement. That just isn't correct because that is exactly what you can do if you follow the rules for pre-measuring in this game.

Is the tool inserted into the base? Yes, clearly part of the tool is within the base. Fully or not is not the requirement of the rules. So long as no part of the tool is within the base you are good to go.

We will have to disagree on what inserted into the base means. I wouldn't let someone execute a maneuver without the tool inserted fully. The rules don't specify that it must be inserted fully, but we obviously know it should before the ship moves. So if "inserted into the base" there means all the way in, there is no reason to think it doesn't mean the same thing in the pre-measuring section.

Regardless, we have come to the same conclusion. The set up in my picture shouldn't be allowed.

You said in the previous post I qouted that the rule was clearly not intended to allow you to check every possible placement. That just isn't correct because that is exactly what you can do if you follow the rules for pre-measuring in this game.

"It isn't there so you can determine the exact placement of all possible notch combinations before you move."

Emphasis added to highlight my point. I never said you couldn't click through your options (though repeatedly doing so every activation could constitute stalling).

EDIT: apparently the forum didn't like my coding for underlining. My previous post was saying that the pre-measuring rules do not allow you to know the exact location your ship will end up. However placing the tool like in my picture will get you pretty darn close to that, thus abusing/violating the pre-measuring rule.

Nah, it can stay. It's helping me ween a lot of friends into this game.

Capital ships don't lend themselves well to navigation errors.

It's not abusing the rules because the rules as written do in fact allow you to gain a near fully accurate picture of where your ship will end up. The only thing you can not do is insert the tool into the ship's base. Barring that you can have the tool directly next to your ship and try and and all adjustments to the template you want. You could hold the template above your base in the exact position it would be if inserted and do the same thing.

Just don't insert the tool into the base and don't stall. Barring that you can gain a near pinpoint picture of where you could end up moving toward. That is exactly what the rules allow. I'm unsure why you think that is not the exact point of the nearly unrestricted pre-measure rules.

I find the whole section on p4 of the tournament rules frightful, it is so officious and in one instance complete nonsense as it contradicts the rules for conduct. (Any form of pre-measure will slow the pace of the game and therefore be a problem.) As for an abuse in Movement I have no idea, what needs to be covered again in the movement section that isn't covered in the section on player conduct? What happens if I insert the tool but in such a way as to move, but the tool and ship overlap, as per the left side of the Ship Movement Example on p10 of the Learn to Play book?

The actual definition on p4 is the maneuver tool is inserted when: "The maneuver tool’s guides are considered to be inserted into the ship when the side of the maneuver tool is parallel to the ship’s base and both base and tool are touching." Given that I am viewing on an angle, and presumably from some distance could I actually see that happen with such clarity as to call my opponent on it or complain to a TO?

As to the question by rowdyoctopus: "Why is there a restriction from putting the tool in the base of the ship?" all I can say is I don't know, my first thought is to prevent the lugs catching on the ship base and preventing ships being bumped, but the rule definition for having inserted the maneuver tool wouldn't prevent that happening, and as written I see no great advantage or purpose, I could insert the lugs and just not have the tool touch the base of the ship or have it so that the tool and ship base aren't parallel, in which case I haven't "Inserted" the tool. However, in doing that I am no less likely to catch the ship and accidentaly move it so the rule seems to be well somewhat less than perfect. It seems to me rowdyoctopus has a perfect understanding of the English use of "Inserted" that is being contradicted by FFG rules and therefore are counter intuitive here. Correct me if I am misrepresenting you, and appologies if I have.

Seems to me that once you pick up a ship with the maneuver tool inserted or above the base of the ship you have begun to move that ship. Keep it simple and if the players can't play like mature and considerate individuals have the TO wish them both well in future tournaments. I do think this section could be improved considerably and should be.

As for timing out games, I have used a rule in my Flames of War tournaments that if two players fail to finish 6 turns they are given a warning. If a player receives a second warning then they are given zero for both games and their opponents score a win as they would in a bye.

It's not abusing the rules because the rules as written do in fact allow you to gain a near fully accurate picture of where your ship will end up. The only thing you can not do is insert the tool into the ship's base. Barring that you can have the tool directly next to your ship and try and and all adjustments to the template you want. You could hold the template above your base in the exact position it would be if inserted and do the same thing.

Just don't insert the tool into the base and don't stall. Barring that you can gain a near pinpoint picture of where you could end up moving toward. That is exactly what the rules allow. I'm unsure why you think that is not the exact point of the nearly unrestricted pre-measure rules.

And not everyone has the same spacial capacity as everyone else. So no, without putting the tool in (or virtually in) the base notches, you cannot get a pinpoint picture of where your ship will end up (I'm talking about to the millimeter).

Because at some point you have to draw the line. They could have drawn the line at when you pick up the ship to move it but they drew it there. Perhaps as the other poster pointed out they found that allowing the tool to be inserted only to be pulled out led to disruption of ship placement. So instead they made that be when you are locked in.

As to the fact that any pre-measuring is going to slow down play, yes and no. Since pre-measuring your movement is clearly part of the base game rules, it itself is part of game play. Just as checking range and arcs would be part to decide on shot selection is part of game play. But doing it excessively or at a non-reasonable pace would be slowing down game play. I mean honestly you can stall while rolling an attack if you were inclined to. Any part of game play can be used to stall.

Why did they have to draw the line though? What did drawing that line accomplish? What benefit does this rule bring to the game? What purpose does this rule serve? Why are you still arguing with me?

I already told you that my only contention was against scenarios as detailed in my picture. You said you wouldn't allow a player to use the tool in that way either. Yet somehow I'm still wrong.

Why did they have to draw the line though? Why did drawing that line accomplish? What benefit does this rule bring to the game? What purpose does this rule serve? Why are you still arguing with me?

I already told you that my only contention was against scenarios as detailed in my picture. You said you wouldn't allow a player to use the tool in that way either. Yet somehow I'm still wrong.

In public forums I have found that when you are "technically right" (in finding what may be or may not be a loophole in the law) many can only see their own "technical right" they have found.

Your picture is by definition of the rule correct, you have not notched the tool and can continue to measure. There are other that will argue this point until they are blue in the face and by all rights may do so.

another one of those "well the intention of the rule was this" or "in this game this is the way we play it" or "I will never do such a thing as that" ambguous absolutes that was at best greatly intended but poorly written aspects of the rules

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/contact/rules/

Jesus, then just ask them, none of us know why that's the cut off.

I come from Warmachine where some premeasuring happens in the end I don't find it slows the game down much in fact most games my opponent just snaps the tool in and then does his clicking (Minus if there are squadrons in the way) to go where he wants.

I have no problem with it, in the end I'd rather him put down the tool snap it in, click it to where he wants and move than take 8 minutes agonizing which way to click the yaw.