I'm not a fan of being capable of pre measuring, it seems to take away any difficulty in maneuvering your ships! It's not as though pilots would get to run through every conceivable flight plan and drag out their options.

The solution is pretty easy too, just make the rule, any contact with the board or a model on the board locks in that maneuver. No more placing it a fraction of a mm from the ship to see where it lands, and if trying to hold it close to the ship another ship gets bumped it locks the decision for good or bad!

Anyone else have an issue with pre-measuring

I figure a ship with that many crew, computer aid and presumed sensor equipment would be able to plot a course well in advance of its current position with accuracy. So at my end I have no trouble assuming this is not reasonable. There are already enough unknowns between orders, enemy moves, and objectives. A 6 turn game does not leave much room for silly mistakes like a single bad maneuver.

Pre-measuring is good for the game. It's one of the factors in Armada that is superior to x-wing.

Pre-measuring is good for the game. It's one of the factors in Armada that is superior to x-wing.

Exactly this.

Each turn isn't a minute of 'game' time, like it is in X-Wing. Capital Ship battles last for hours according to the EU, each turn is probably a fairly decent duration. The ships aren't making snap decisions, they have time to calculate their trajectories. Watch Empire or Jedi and you'll see dozens if not hundreds of computers on the bridge of an SD, they have to be of some use.

Anyone else have an issue with pre-measuring

I do, it doesn't enhance the tactical or strategic options of the game by having to estimate distances.

I have played two systems that do not allow pre-measuring and those two games have more problems with players cheating than those that allow players to measure and plan their tactics.

I wonder if the whole issue of the play mats would have happened if you could premeasure rather than estimate?

I have no issue with it. In X-Wing, positioning is everything. In Armada, it's less critical that I be facing a certain way or in a certain position. Allowing premeasuring in X-Wing takes away a lot of the guesswork and skill that the game is supposed to rely on. In Armada, it's just letting me see that yes, I will have a shot with my front arc next turn.

I'm not a fan of being capable of pre measuring, it seems to take away any difficulty in maneuvering your ships! It's not as though pilots would get to run through every conceivable flight plan and drag out their options.

The solution is pretty easy too, just make the rule, any contact with the board or a model on the board locks in that maneuver. No more placing it a fraction of a mm from the ship to see where it lands, and if trying to hold it close to the ship another ship gets bumped it locks the decision for good or bad!

Anyone else have an issue with pre-measuring

Thats not what happens though, a player knows that he wants to make a right turn and so does it, he doesn't run through every combo possible.

One of the reasons Armada is my new favourite game is the ability to pre-measure. Pre-measuring does not add to the tactics, it just favours players who are good at judging distance rather than those who out think their opponent - in large fleet battles that take place over huge areas of space, losing because someone was a few inches out isn't very thematic (especially when they have sensors and computers on board to aid with all that stuff)

Well, I'm clearly in a minority in regards to this.

Thats not what happens though, a player knows that he wants to make a right turn and so does it, he doesn't run through every combo possible.

Just to point out, they do (and have every right to according to the rules) they check right, then left, then a harder right turn, then a harder left, then a hard right at the 1 with a hard left at the 2, then the opposite, then they place the template a fraction of an inch away, then move multiple squadrons out of the way to place the template... I could go on...

But, clearly I'm in a minority as I guess none of you have run into this, or (possibly) this is your strategy and find nothing wrong with it.

Tournament Rules page 4:

"Players should not abuse this pre-measurement rule to slow the pace of play or interrupt an opponent’s activation.

......

If a player believes his or her opponent is abusing movement pre-measuring he or she can request that a judge observe the match."

There is no reason to need to move squadrons when pre-measuring.

Additionally the implication that someone is somehow doing something wrong by doing what the rules explicitly allow is backwards.

I wouldn't allow my opponent to put the maneuver tool a mm from the ship base. That is abusing the pre-measuring rules.

I wouldn't allow my opponent to put the maneuver tool a mm from the ship base. That is abusing the pre-measuring rules.

No it isn't? The rules are very specific in what locks the move in. Placing it on the table near the ship is in no way abusing that rule. Hell, in friendly games, why do you even care if they slot it in to check the move, except that it might bump the ship a bit?

I wouldn't allow my opponent to put the maneuver tool a mm from the ship base. That is abusing the pre-measuring rules.

No it isn't? The rules are very specific in what locks the move in. Placing it on the table near the ship is in no way abusing that rule. Hell, in friendly games, why do you even care if they slot it in to check the move, except that it might bump the ship a bit?

I'm not speaking figuratively here. I'm talking about a literal 1 mm gap between the tool and the base.

how about ruling that you cannot move anything out of the way of the tool before you notch it. Thus making you estimate before you put the tool on the board.

"Okay I am gonna notch it, this fighter is in the way (put down the coin and moves the fighter out of the way)"

I don't see where there is any grounds to call putting the tool near the ship abuse of the pre-measure rules when they are as specific as to what entails locking the maneuver in (notches in) and the only abuse mentioned in the event rules is stalling for time.

how about just leave the premeasuring

god knows there's more than enough to keep in mind even with it around (objectives, squadron rules, the command dial, flip-flop initiative, ship positions...)

removing it just adds an artificial level of difficulty that would only frustrate gamers

Tournament Rules page 4:
"Players should not abuse this pre-measurement rule to slow the pace of play or interrupt an opponent’s activation.
......
If a player believes his or her opponent is abusing movement pre-measuring he or she can request that a judge observe the match."

going by the passage quoted, one can call a judge not because of the pre-measure but because of intentional stalling similar to the target-lock issue over in X-wing

I don't see where there is any grounds to call putting the tool near the ship abuse of the pre-measure rules when they are as specific as to what entails locking the maneuver in (notches in) and the only abuse mentioned in the event rules is stalling for time.

There is a line in the tournament rules about players abusing the pre-measuring rules. This is a very fine line. If you want to put the tool down, feel free. If you want to take the time to line it up, nudge it in, get it as close as possible to the base without touching, move things on the board, etc. all for the sake of pre-measuring, I'm going to ask you to stop or call the TO over.

I wouldn't allow my opponent to put the maneuver tool a mm from the ship base. That is abusing the pre-measuring rules.

No it isn't? The rules are very specific in what locks the move in. Placing it on the table near the ship is in no way abusing that rule. Hell, in friendly games, why do you even care if they slot it in to check the move, except that it might bump the ship a bit?

If the rule is that putting the teeth of the tool in the slots of the ship locks it in, it is extremely clear that putting the tool down and nudging it as close as physically possible without touching the base of the ship to pre-measure is abusing the spirit othhat rule. Why even have the rule if you can just put it 1 mm away?

I'm not speaking figuratively here. I'm talking about a literal 1 mm gap between the tool and the base.

But you're establishing a totally arbitrary cut-off point for what's "allowed".

I tend to put the tool down about a centimetre away from the ship, because that usually gives me enough information to proceed with confidence. Would you be cool with that? What if I was lazy, and one turn flung it down 0.5 cm away from the base? Is that cool? Or am I in the red zone?

Not notched = not notched. It's very clear. If my opponent can fiddle the tool in exactly 1mm away from the base, good for them. As long as it's not notched, I don't care.

Well, I'm clearly in a minority in regards to this.

Thats not what happens though, a player knows that he wants to make a right turn and so does it, he doesn't run through every combo possible.

Just to point out, they do (and have every right to according to the rules) they check right, then left, then a harder right turn, then a harder left, then a hard right at the 1 with a hard left at the 2, then the opposite, then they place the template a fraction of an inch away, then move multiple squadrons out of the way to place the template... I could go on...

But, clearly I'm in a minority as I guess none of you have run into this, or (possibly) this is your strategy and find nothing wrong with it.

If they are removing squadrons out of the way, they would be breaking the rules about using the measurement tool.

I don't see where there is any grounds to call putting the tool near the ship abuse of the pre-measure rules when they are as specific as to what entails locking the maneuver in (notches in) and the only abuse mentioned in the event rules is stalling for time.

Not only, it also states abusing the pre-measuring... and placing it very close to the ship could be argued as an abuse, as it's no different than inserting it on the ship's base.

I don't see where there is any grounds to call putting the tool near the ship abuse of the pre-measure rules when they are as specific as to what entails locking the maneuver in (notches in) and the only abuse mentioned in the event rules is stalling for time.

Not only, it also states abusing the pre-measuring... and placing it very close to the ship could be argued as an abuse, as it's no different than inserting it on the ship's base.

the pre-measuring abuse is related back to the time stalling. The pre-measuring itself is not an abuse because it is allowed in the rules of the game.

personally, I'm in rowdyoctopus' camp. Just like target-locks in X-wing, one is more than allowed to put down the measurement tool to get the information you need, but if one starts getting unnecessarily and disturbing exact then I'm calling a TO over because my time is being wasted at that point.

Ideally, a player will set the tool, get a quick idea, and then either set it or change it in a timely manner. More than likely, the fact that the potential abuse is in such an integral component of the game (moving rather than target-locks) I bet we're going to see a "Death-clock" (ala Warmachine) in competitive events (just think of timed rounds in chess)

If a player believes his or her opponent is abusing movement pre-measuring he or she can request that a judge observe the match.

It doesn't say anything about time stalling only.

If putting the Template Ruler 1mm away from the ship was an abuse the rules wouldn't specify 'locking in to the template' as the cut-off point. The rules quite clearly allow you to do any type of premeasuring you want, this isn't X-wing and you need to stop thinking of it like X-Wing. If you call a TO over to whine about someone doing something clearly allowed in the rules then at that point you are the one wasting time, as any TO should clearly see premeasuring is allowed.

There is a reason the rules specifically call out attaching the template as being the cut-off point.

Besides, its only an abuse if only one player can do it, you can do it to.