Char Gen Redux

By Magus Black, in Dark Heresy House Rules

Just saying but this is totally a 'work in progress' sort of thing, and as such is incomplete in some areas. If and its becoming difficult to find time for some things...but any critic is welcome and if you see something you want to use go right ahead.

hopefully the blasted link works (stupid machine spirits make me look bad).

Link

Edited by Magus Black

This definitely has potential; my favorite part is the addition of Home World Penalties I missed having from other games. I am, however, not sold on:

  • Obtaining more than one (1) Home World Bonus : I see Homeworld Bonuses as opportunities to have bonuses not obtainable through Talents or otherwise. Being able to purchase more than one bonus makes them (arguably overly useful) Talents anyway.
  • Numerical Characteristic Modifiers : Returning to the number-crunchy +/- Home World Characteristic Modifiers you have going on there makes chargen seem even more like a number race. I would personally keep things closer to RAW.
  • Tying Toughness to Wounds/Sound Constitution : This is just a sore spot of mine, as it only serves to make the durable characters more durable and the squishier characters have to pay a premium. Also, devils of multiplication easily make for 40+ Wound characters. Not my cup of tea. See my thread for what I prefer.

I will be keeping an eye on this to see how it pans out. Good work, and carry on.

  • Obtaining more than one (1) Home World Bonus : I see Homeworld Bonuses as opportunities to have bonuses not obtainable through Talents or otherwise. Being able to purchase more than one bonus makes them (arguably overly useful) Talents anyway.
Well people always seem to say that they want more options and that Homeworld/Origins tend to loose meaning after Character Generation when there are no more choices left to explore. This would just be my to migrate that aspect a little bit with more choices and combinations. In RAW for example throughout the game line there are Talents limited by Career (Rogue Trader has several limited to Missionaries), Background (Psykers and Adeptus Mechanicus all the way) and even Species (Only War and Rogue Trader get into this); what would be the problem with making some that limited by Homeworld?
Though I bears asking: do you think the ones I wrote are too powerful?
I did mention in the ‘Create Your Own Homeworld’ section that my examples are not above reproach.

Numerical Characteristic Modifiers : Returning to the number-crunchy +/- Home World Characteristic Modifiers you have going on there makes chargen seem even more like a number race. I would personally keep things closer to RAW.

I could make a good long argument against this but I will simply go with: Agree to Disagree.
I like the Tearing mechanic since its helpful often…but you only roll Characteristics once, and I hate having to leaving everything to the cruel and fickle whims of the Dice Gods.
Besides you gotta admit there’s much less page flipping and math involved that the older RPG’s …right?

  • Tying Toughness to Wounds/Sound Constitution : This is just a sore spot of mine, as it only serves to make the durable characters more durable and the squishier characters have to pay a premium. Also, devils of multiplication easily make for 40+ Wound characters. Not my cup of tea. See my thread for what I prefer.

Well to be fair who are some of the hardest people to kill in 40k. Soldiers and warriors… and space marines but nobody cares about them :ph34r: .
Both of our systems rely Toughness in some way the differences are in investment and time.
In your version you can chose to invest nothing and still benefit (albeit in very long terms), or invest heavily and get twice your TB in relatively short time (again in relative terms). The ultimate factor, beyond Toughness/Talent investment, is Time; if you manage to survive through various campaigns you benefit.
On the other hand Time is also the Flaw too. A character has to survive until the effects take place in order to benefit from it, and is just as likely to of died long before then (such is life in 40k). For Players the experience sink for a benefit that wont take full effect until the character may be almost retiring (or dead) may not be appealing at all.
My version is much faster but requires investment in order to benefit, there are no freebies for wimps. For many Players they’d rather pay more and benefit now, than pay less and benefit at some unforeseeable future. Of course one of the cons about mine is both its high cost (bar minimal for all three talents is between 900-1950 exp) and the fact it appear anywhere (like martial arts) can throw Players through a loop; like a nerd that takes three las-rounds to the chest and a blow to back of the head with a shock maul and still manages to scamper away despite the odds.
Of course these two systems are purely optional for any user…and perhaps surprisingly not inclusive to each other; a GM could use both for some truly Epic-style campaigns.
Though in the end the number of Wounds you have doesn’t stop people from rolling Righteous Fury and ending you through luck.
==
But I digress, if you have a moment could you tell me what you think of some the other changes I made.
Like whether the changes made to the Aptitudes are even.
The reintroduction of the Demolition Skill.
The Leadership Elite Advantage, and the changes to the Psyker Elite Advantage
The fairness of the Racial Origins Builder
The changes made so far in the Armoury, particularly in the matter of Artifact and Archeotech weapons.

Meant to reply earlier, but got caught up in a few things. After some thinking, my first two opinions actually somewhat reversed. Using bullet-vision again:

  • Obtaining more than one (1) Home World Bonus : Out of the RPGs I explored, I liked [Legend of the Five Rings]' chargen system best. What L5R does, in relation to DH2, is throw all Bonuses (Home World, Background, and Role) into one big pot and lets players purchase the ones they want. The cost of the bonuses are based on which chargen options they are most commonly associated with. Take, for example, RAW Shrine World's [Faith in the Creed]. By adapting L5R's system, it might cost 100xp to Shrine World, Adeptus Ministorum, or Hierophant characters but 300xp for everyone else. I strive for this method since players could have interesting combinations such as 2 Home World Bonuses and 2 Background Bonuses, or 4 Role Bonuses. One of these days, I will establish my own .pdf outlining this process, but for now I wanted to update my stance on multiple Bonuses.
  • Numerical Characteristic Modifiers : In a combination of haste and shortsightedness, I did not notice that modified Characteristics are already +/- 5.in the RAW point-buy chargen system. Taking that into account, I have no real issue with how your Home Worlds are presented. For clarity, though, I would reestablish the +/- Characteristics and have a clause stating that modified Characteristics are raised/lowered by 5. I find Home Worlds more easily readable at a glance that way.
  • Tying Toughness to Wounds/Sound Constitution : This matter I will still contest. Consider a character who fails to meet the Toughness or Defense Aptitudes. She will churn out 1350xp for 4 to 8 Wounds, assuming a squishy character's base TB of 2 to 4. While the Wound gain will jump to 8 to 16 Wounds with your [Heroic Constitution], the character will be looking at a substantial investment of 2550xp for survivability alone.
    Further, as I mentioned, the multiplicative nature of [Heroic Constitution] creates a large rift between tanky and squishy characters. One player may have under 20 Wounds while another is breaking 50. The tanky character gets more tanky in a smaller time-frame for cheaper. In some cases, the gap may be as wide as twice the durability for half the cost. To me, this just sets the stage for player envy; why play a glass cannon when a mighty glacier has a significantly increased lifespan for a small hit to damage?
    Frankly, I'm entertaining the option of shelving Sound Constitution completely and making my system the default. One less Experience tax to worry about.

I do not have strong feelings about the other items in the document, but I will share a brief opinion as requested:

  • Aptitude Changes : Rather than change how Aptitudes work, I would rather add a third Aptitude to everything.
  • Demolition Skill : I am against reintroducing and creating new Skills. I would stick to Tech-Use, if not a combination of Tech-Use, Trade, and/or Lore.
  • Leadership Elite Advance : As there is little story behind it, I find it a hollow excuse to grab another Aptitude. At that point, I would just change the number of Aptitude grants or allow freer choice of Aptitudes.
  • Racial Origins Builder : Creates a chargen process within the chargen process, bogging everything down. I would rather treat Races as a Home World or a Background as applicable.
  • Artifacts/Archeotech : Modifiers do too much simultaneously. If you have access to [Rogue Trader - Stars of Inequity]'s [Treasure Generator] or [Only War - Hammer of the Emperor]'s [Variant Equipment Patterns], I prefer how they break the modifiers over several entries.
  • Aptitude Changes : Rather than change how Aptitudes work, I would rather add a third Aptitude to everything.

I've seen this mentioned a few times and I'm sure it's no surprise I think this is a horrible idea, but I would like to hear your rationale. As Aptitudes exist solely to determine XP costs for advancements, and since every advance in the game costs either a multiple of 100 or 250, is this not granular enough? Adding a 3rd would necessitate reworking the XP cost charts and this is the only thing I can think of for a reason to do this.

  • Demolition Skill : I am against reintroducing and creating new Skills. I would stick to Tech-Use, if not a combination of Tech-Use, Trade, and/or Lore.

I 100% agree with this. Consolidating skills is one of the few improvements that have happened in this game line.

  • Aptitude Changes : Rather than change how Aptitudes work, I would rather add a third Aptitude to everything.

I've seen this mentioned a few times and I'm sure it's no surprise I think this is a horrible idea, but I would like to hear your rationale. As Aptitudes exist solely to determine XP costs for advancements, and since every advance in the game costs either a multiple of 100 or 250, is this not granular enough? Adding a 3rd would necessitate reworking the XP cost charts and this is the only thing I can think of for a reason to do this.

Aptitudes are mainly for framing XP Costs, yes. In my view, characters would only benefit from a maximum of two Aptitudes even if they meet all three. For example, [Tech-Use] might run (Intelligence, Knowledge, and Tech). Even though the Sage Role grants all three Aptitudes, Tech-Use would still use the 2-Aptitude Cost. In addition, I would knock down all 0-Aptitude Costs to double the 2-Aptitude Costs rather than the current triple. I would normalize/create a formula for the Characteristic Advance table as well. The cost between Aptitudes ramps up too quickly for my tastes.

Sorry life and work (and lots stress) has gotten in my way of posting a response.


And ye know I’ll use bullet version

  • Homeworld Bonuses- I’ve played that both 3rd and 4th Edition (to a lesser degree), it definitely has good points in that style, though it still has some pretty bad flaws in other areas (mostly due to most Advantages/Disadvantages are either too good or too useless; with 4th Edition Players claiming the more latter)…but I suppose that’s more of a complaint about the overall system than anything. Its certainly and angle worth exploring but is perhaps not my cup of tanna.
  • Characteristic Modifiers- Ah opps! I completely forgot about that little change they did to the Point Buy Chart, going have to fix that.
  • Wounds- Perhaps, but there has always been a large gap between those with high Wounds and those with low (and always will be). In the end purchasing extra Wounds is all about optimized price (in experience) and gain (the number of Wound received) for the best results; in the canonical game Sound Constitution is still Toughness/General and characters without the Toughness Aptitude are paying a high price (300exp) for a very low gain (+1 Wound). My version at the very least makes cost more equivalent to the gain (a character with TB: 3 gets a Wound for every 100 exp they had spent) and unlike the old version, or yours, all you need do is purchase the first Talent and increase your Toughness to benefit. Besides everyone needs to invest in Toughness at some point this is 40k after all, Paper Tigers and Glass-Cannons don’t live long in this “Hive Tyrant eats dog” universe.


  • On Skill Compression- This something of a hot point in much of modern game design, and the full scope of which might takes hours to write up in total, so I’ll try to simply my point. Skill compressions are good when they take two or more skills that are complimentary and put them together for practicality of use; to use Pathfinder as an example Hide and Move Silently were compressed to make Stealth, since if you were rolling one you would likely be rolling the other too. Alternatively compressing skills together based on theme so that it limit’s the required resource management for both Players and GM’s, which is more popular with more Narrative-focused games (which with few exceptions I dislike), and as long as these compressed skill groups don’t become too homogenized or comes in conflict with the setting, its all good.

…and Tech-Use is a major abomination to the 40k setting, beyond the fact that is a combination of at least 5 different skills (Craft [Anything], Repair, Use-Tech, Demolitions, SCIENCE!!!) it files directly in the face of both the setting and common sense (in order to use a computer I have to know how to build a F-14 Tomcat from scratch); so breaking up the Tech-Use monopoly is in fact the most setting-appropriate thing to do.


In fact after a long bit of consideration I’ve decided to break the Tech-Use skill up even further (yes my Heresy know NO BOUNDS! :lol: ) since the skill not hurts the setting but invalidates several skills besides. There is currently no point in taking Common Lore (Tech) or Forbidden Lore (Archeotech) since the Tech-Use skill allows you to use itself to do both skills, which makes investment in both skills pointless.


So in my growing Heresy to Omnissiah :o I’m turning Tech-Use into Tech (Craft, Repair) and creating, in addition to the now free Demolitions, Use-Tech a Intelligence/General “exactly what it says on the tin” skill for the masses…and of course finally any matter of actual science is based on the various related Lore Skills.


  • Leadership- This might sound odd but there is a few good reasons for this. Leadership is a rare skill in life that few people actually possess, though many can fake it well enough for the most part, that is the combination of charisma, drive, and general people skills that allows for one person to motivate large groups of people to their desires. Mechanically speaking a number of people recognized that in Only War that despite the fact that the Sergeant was a Fellowship-focused Career he could not cheaply purchase the Characteristic vital to his success, this a remedy to that issue. My change to the Leadership Aptitude fixes this by allowing anyone to cheapen the cost of their Fellowship without them being a socialite, but since giving it away for free would cheapen the Social Aptitude too much (and limiting it to only certain CharGen options against the whole point) I made it into Elite Advantage that anyone could take if they wanted, with perks that seemed appropriate (you don't just wake up and realize that your leadership material).

Want to be ex-gang leader that can whip the boyz into a frenzy. Leadership.

Want to be a down-on-his-luck miner leading his fellows against a Chaos invasion. Leadership.

Want to try for the role Saint Sabbat? Leadership.

Want to be an Inquisitor, your going to need some serious Leadership abilities (and more besides).



  • Racial Origin- Ah! Its seem I didn’t word it clear enough your Racial Origins ARE your Homeworld/Origins, as in it takes the place of the normal options and replaces it with a Race, I just provided to building block to create them (which should be done first with the GM‘s approval before Character Generation even begins).
  • Archeotech- Hmm I’ve got Hammer of the Emperor but not Stars of Inequity, is it similar to Hammer of the Emperor (and worth purchasing overall)?


*snip*

  • Archeotech- Hmm I’ve got Hammer of the Emperor but not Stars of Inequity, is it similar to Hammer of the Emperor (and worth purchasing overall)?

I will speak first to the Archeotech bullet since I can answer that relatively easily. [stars of Inequity] is great for setting-building in the exploration-based [Rogue Trader] line, but other games might not see as much benefit. Briefly, the 1d10-centric generators within can create random star systems with random planets with random inhabitants and, most pertinently, random treasures. Regarding the [Treasure Generator], the Treasure has a "Type" (Weapon, Armour, Tool, and Ship Components), "Origin" (Craftsmanship, Archeotech, Xenos, Omens), and a "Quirk" (a 'personality' with additional mechanical effects). Origins consist of different effects based on the Treasure's Type. For example, Archeotech's "Indestructible" generically makes the Treasure very hard or impossible to destroy. More specifically, Indestructible Weapons enjoy increased Damage and Pen, never Jam, and "resists all attempts to damage or destroy it by natural means". Indestructible Armour instead cannot have its AP reduced by Penetration.

On top of the mechanics, there is naturally a good bit of guiding fluff to give the generated items some flavor. As I have mentioned, I prefer targetted buffs to equipment rather than an umbrella increase to all parameters. [stars of Inequity] is useful for generating off-the-book adventures, but again, it may not be a good fit for non-Rogue Trader games. Your mileage may vary.


To your other changes, I will answer relative to your expectations rather than shoehorning my own views:

  • Wounds : Increasing characters' maximum Wounds dilutes the grimdark/gritty setting by allowing players to shrug off, say, a point-blank bolt barrage or a lascannon blast to the face. While such survivability may be enjoyable, the same "issues" with the RAW Wound system still exist, namely how Wounds create a buffer of non-mechanical damage. As a result, I recommend creating or finding a supplementary system to preserve willing suspension of disbelief, or characters will regularly tank what should be unequivocally lethal.
  • Leadership : Mechanically speaking, the Leadership Elite Advance is too cheap for what it does. For the low requirement of FEL 30 and 400xp, it grants a Skill Rank, a Talent, and future discounts on all Leadership-based obtainables. Compare the RAW Psyker Elite Advance, which has myriad narrative implications, or the RAW Inquisitor Elite Advance, which has a steep prerequisite in addition to narrative implications. I call the Leadership Elite Advance hollow because there is no real "weight" behind it. To that end, I recommend introducing narrative prequisites or increasing the size of the package so it is not a buy-it-and-forget-it Elite Advance.
  • Tech-Use : Included for completeness, though I do not have any strong feelings towards supporting another Skill branch. As you will.